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Cam Chain Issues (Read 174 times)
vroom1776
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Re: Cam Chain Issues
Reply #30 - 05/16/07 at 07:25:56
 
that darn file was corrupted.  I swear I've got another somehere that I already unzipped...
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Savage_Rob
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Re: Cam Chain Issues
Reply #31 - 05/16/07 at 07:46:47
 
vroom1776 wrote on 12/31/69 at 16:00:05:
that darn file was corrupted.  I swear I've got another somehere that I already unzipped...

I have it.  I emailed it to Ken.  If you'll get me your email, I'll get it to you also.  I used 7-Zip because it created a file less than 5 MB while a Zip would be well over 20 MB.  It also gets through some corporate email filters that disallow Zip files.  Try http://www.7-zip.org/ if your archival utility doesn't handle 7-Zips.
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1998|MAC muffler|ceramic coated header|K&N air filter|Amal Mk2 carb|Odyssey battery|iridium plug|NC windshield|Dunlop 491s|Superbrace|EBC brake rotor|12.5" Progressive shocks|Kuryakyn ISO grips
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KenGLong
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Re: Cam Chain Issues
Reply #32 - 05/16/07 at 17:25:34
 
Savage_Rob wrote on 12/31/69 at 16:00:05:
I have it.  I emailed it to Ken.

Got it. I'm reading now.
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tuxedo
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Re: Cam Chain Issues
Reply #33 - 05/16/07 at 19:36:21
 
I'll take a copy of that, if anyone's just sending all willy-nilly.  Email it to deletethisaccount@pizzapimps.com.  No worries on spams, I'll just remove the account after I receive the zip.

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Savage_Rob
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Re: Cam Chain Issues
Reply #34 - 05/17/07 at 06:19:10
 
Let me know if you're able to retrieve it from this link.  You'll probably want to do the right-click and save-as thing.

Bert Heise's LS650 Page - Messages 0-19000

Try http://www.7-zip.org/ if your archival utility doesn't handle 7-Zips.
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1998|MAC muffler|ceramic coated header|K&N air filter|Amal Mk2 carb|Odyssey battery|iridium plug|NC windshield|Dunlop 491s|Superbrace|EBC brake rotor|12.5" Progressive shocks|Kuryakyn ISO grips
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KenGLong
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Re: Cam Chain Issues
Reply #35 - 05/17/07 at 06:34:45
 
I will be summarizing the relevant information from those archives but, in general, I can say that those old messages indicate that this is not a new problem. True, it wasn't as common in past years but it was still there.

There was one person who offered a possible theory. He thought it might be related to low oil level. I haven't looked into that yet but it sure can't hurt to make sure our bikes are always topped up on oil. I know mine loses a bit when I ride it hard and I have to check the level every day if I'm doing a lot of freeway miles.

My own thought is that just maybe, we Savage riders of today are riding many more miles than people used to. The cam chain issue might be due to that plus a couple of weak design issues in the engine. (I say weak only in the sense that if the bike were a little higher up on the price ladder, Suzuki might have done some things differently.)

Ken
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azjay
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Re: Cam Chain Issues
Reply #36 - 05/17/07 at 07:11:42
 
measured the cam chain from the '97 8000mile  motor last night, about 127.38mm
does the DR650 have a similar problem? how about one of the other mfrs? there is plenty of aluminum thumpers out there, what do they do for cam chain tensioners?
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dyna muff,1/2 spacer,152.5,55,drilled air box,idle mix,spark plug door,harley bars & seat,spitfire windshield,turn signal,dunlops,man.pethingy,ISO pegs,engine cage,hiway pegs,support 81
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verslagen1
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Re: Cam Chain Issues
Reply #37 - 05/18/07 at 11:41:13
 
2.38mm .094" longer than new... .02" over the max.

And only 8k miles?  You got this from bikemom?  

She must be one bad ass biker chic!

Hot on the throttle and no oil!  Shocked
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Savage_Rob
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Re: Cam Chain Issues
Reply #38 - 05/18/07 at 12:09:40
 
verslagen1 wrote on 12/31/69 at 16:00:05:
2.38mm .094" longer than new... .02" over the max.

And only 8k miles?  You got this from bikemom?  

She must be one bad ass biker chic!

Hot on the throttle and no oil!  Shocked

I'm hoping it's the one that Debra's bike threw not long after running for a while with no oil.  That little bit of extra heat and lack of lube might help explain it a bit.
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1998|MAC muffler|ceramic coated header|K&N air filter|Amal Mk2 carb|Odyssey battery|iridium plug|NC windshield|Dunlop 491s|Superbrace|EBC brake rotor|12.5" Progressive shocks|Kuryakyn ISO grips
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KenGLong
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Re: Cam Chain Issues
Reply #39 - 05/18/07 at 12:29:33
 
azjay wrote on 12/31/69 at 16:00:05:
measured the cam chain from the '97 8000mile  motor last night, about 127.38mm
does the DR650 have a similar problem? how about one of the other mfrs? there is plenty of aluminum thumpers out there, what do they do for cam chain tensioners?

Seems that the adjuster is doing its job. There seems to be a couple issues here. One is that the adjuster keeps adjusting until it runs out of plunger then comes apart. Second is that the chain wears and/or stretches too fast. If we can fix the chain part of the equation, the adjuster will be able to do its job properly.

I would like to see at least 50,000 miles before replacing the cam chain.
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Savage_Rob
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Re: Cam Chain Issues
Reply #40 - 05/18/07 at 13:06:06
 
KenGLong wrote on 12/31/69 at 16:00:05:
Seems that the adjuster is doing its job. There seems to be a couple issues here. One is that the adjuster keeps adjusting until it runs out of plunger then comes apart. Second is that the chain wears and/or stretches too fast. If we can fix the chain part of the equation, the adjuster will be able to do its job properly.

If that's the case, I wonder about the previously suggested cryo treatment or if there's a better quality chain available that would fit.
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1998|MAC muffler|ceramic coated header|K&N air filter|Amal Mk2 carb|Odyssey battery|iridium plug|NC windshield|Dunlop 491s|Superbrace|EBC brake rotor|12.5" Progressive shocks|Kuryakyn ISO grips
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verslagen1
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Re: Cam Chain Issues
Reply #41 - 05/18/07 at 14:35:44
 
I beleave the rachet is ment to prevent oscillations in the chain if left to spring tension only.

If a damper could be fit in there then the thermal growth/overtight chain issue can be eliminated.

I think the second heavier spring could work too.  But needs trial and error.  Too heavy of a spring will yield the same result.  And too light may be even worse.
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KenGLong
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Re: Cam Chain Issues
Reply #42 - 05/18/07 at 20:07:02
 
Savage_Rob wrote on 12/31/69 at 16:00:05:
If that's the case, I wonder about the previously suggested cryo treatment or if there's a better quality chain available that would fit.

I've contacted the company in Texas about this. I plan to send my new chain to them for the treatment. I guess this means that I'll have to ride my Savage for a few years more to see if it helps. (Twist my arm, I says!)
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Max_Morley
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Re: Cam Chain Issues
Reply #43 - 05/18/07 at 20:53:44
 
My experience in other thumpers and one Kawa twin in our Kawa MULE 1000 is that the system is pretty much the same. Some use manual adjusters that have to be done on a maintenance interval. Others use hydraulic (engine oil pressure) to reset the plunger if needed. My guides (Suzuki calls them tensioner) were flat w/o sign of wear unlike some of the Honda's I've had apart that had a definite grove worn in them. The chain and guides on the Kawa MULE were worn so much I could install the chain with the tensioner fully extended. It came with the engine in pieces in the bed and I didn't meet the diassembler until after it was back together and running. He had done a great job of keeping related fasteners in parts in baggies with the parts. Engine was toast from an air intake duct problem and probably from running low on oil as the cylinders were worn out and it had been bored once. FYI Suzuki parts are cheap compared to those parts. cylinders are wet and have to be machined to fit the pistons and decked to fit the block. 2 CV carbs and no parts, new carbs sets on the brackets over $600.  Engine and torque converter cost over $3500 for parts. That said my wife and her dogs have put over 1500 miles on it in a year so in a couple more years it will have amortized out. For sure there is no whining about motorcycle maintenance costs.  And the cycle license plate frame says "50 MPG and one less car".  Until more information is available and some standards to measure as folks service the chain, guides, gears, and tensioner and we have some knowledge of oil ratings used we are not being very scientific. Max
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Max at Thumper Acres. '96 Savage bagger, '03 Savage w/Cozy sidecar for wifeni.
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justin_o_guy
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Re: Cam Chain Issues
Reply #44 - 05/18/07 at 22:31:33
 
With a spring built into the mount to the rear guide the tensioner ratchet can get a "New" slot & the spring in the guide mount would soak up the stresses of the thermal expansion. As the chain loosened up, the strong spring would cease to be collapsed by the thermal expansion of the block. As the chain loosened further, the tensioner rod would start to oscillate in & out as the engine & chain went thru their respective heat expansion cycles untill it finally stuck out far enuff to catch a new slot.

Another question is<<< How hot does the cam chain get while the engine is "growing" .015 " & at that temperature, how is the overall length of the chain affected? Sure would be nice if it was close to .03"... Somehow, I doubt the thermal expansion rate of steel is even close to Aluminum & secondly, the cam chain isnt subjected to near the heat as the jug, since the jug gets an occasional fire/explosion set off inside it & the chain gets a steady oil bath to keep it cool & slick.
Whats the "Best Guess" of the engineers for the operating temp of the chain & the thermal expansion based on that temp?
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