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Message started by KenGLong on 05/14/07 at 08:46:11

Title: Cam Chain Issues
Post by KenGLong on 05/14/07 at 08:46:11

Started a new topic because this isn't specifically about replacing or modifying the cam chain and adjuster.

I'm wondering if we can discover a pattern. For instance, I've read a couple posts that say this wasn't an issue in the distant past. How distant? When did the issue start showing up? Has anyone had repeated troubles after replacing all the worn parts and putting it back together? (I'm really curious about that one.)

If the issue is fairly recent, what changed? Parts hardness? Installation technique? Lean tuned engines? Synthetic oil?

Color me curious.

Ken

Title: Re: Cam Chain Issues
Post by Dr_Jim on 05/14/07 at 11:34:53

Title: Re: Cam Chain Issues
Post by verslagen1 on 05/14/07 at 11:45:27

This is a guess, cause I have no way of quantifing it beyond spending money for a legitimate inspection house to go over the parts one by one... not going to happen.

By the SSM, you measure the chain stretch over 21 pins, 5.07" max. My chain was 5.01" with 21k miles.

Tribal knowledge says attention is required if tensioner adjuster (TA) is out 18mm (.71"). Usually chain and tensioners need to be replaced. My TA was out 20mm. I replaced the tensioner guide. With my modified TA it reduced the projection by 2mm (.08").

The front guide is straight so it doesn't play a part in the 'stretch'.

The gears were in good condition, no wear effident. We know they are very hard, over tighten with air wrench and they shatter.

That leaves just one surface we can't easily check... the inside teeth of the chain.

We also don't have any idea on the factory installed condition of the TA. How much does it protrude brand spanking new? I got a feeling that they stick out halfway from the get go. Some more, some less, which is why some do this at 10k and others 30k.

If this is a 'new' problem and earlier models had better life, I don't know. Chain hardeness would certainly be a contributing factor. ;D

Title: Re: Cam Chain Issues
Post by Max_Morley on 05/14/07 at 12:13:43

I had basically responded to an earlier post and agree with Jim's post. I think we need to make sure we are using oil that has the old type anti-wear in it and that isn't in the current SL rated oils. As soon as the magazine with the article I'm basing my input on gets back to me, I share it with all of you. I'm starting to think Shell Rotella T synthetic or real M/C oil is best. Max

Title: Re: Cam Chain Issues
Post by KenGLong on 05/14/07 at 12:30:59

We gotta start somewhere and speculating as to the cause is as good a place as any.

The idea of different oil formulas is an interesting one. I've been using m/c specific oil every time I do an oil change but I don't know what the previous owner(s) did for the first 12,000 miles on my '02.

Has anyone had to do the premature cam chain thing a second time after using the recommended oil?

Ken

Title: Re: Cam Chain Issues
Post by justin_o_guy on 05/14/07 at 16:01:16

I can't remember just who it was that took the time to visit with me regarding oil, but I am running Rotella -T 15-40 Dino oil. Exceeds API CI-4 (Whatever the HEKK that means) also, the brag sheet states it is up to the CH-4, CG-4 All sorts of these follow along with API SL & SJ for gasoline engines.

Title: Re: Cam Chain Issues
Post by verslagen1 on 05/14/07 at 16:53:36

I read all I ever care read about oil and I'm sold on the Rotella T 15-40 Dino, and reasonably priced and available. Although I may switch to Rotella syn, if a few more chime in for it. ;D

Title: Re: Cam Chain Issues
Post by justin_o_guy on 05/14/07 at 18:12:43

Something I've mentioned a couple of times & had no reply to is the idea of soaking the cam chain in oil a while, so it;'s never dry.

Also, I don't know how this would go over in the crankcase with the clutch, but the drive on the Moto Guzzi calls for a bit of Molybdenum to be added to the gear oil. If we dabbed a bit of Moly in with the oil, as long as it doesnt make the clutch slip or jack up the viscosity, would that help anything?

And, the next time I do the chain, I will be looking for someone who can subject the thing to super cold temps. Like liquid nitrogen. This is one site, just google

cryogenic metal engine parts

& check out

http://www.300below.com/site/motorsports.html

Title: Re: Cam Chain Issues
Post by justin_o_guy on 05/14/07 at 20:03:34

http://www.tmiusa.com/TMIcryo.html

Here's a [place in Texas that will do the cryo treatment pretty reasonably I thinnk, 85 for timing chain & gears. I expect some less for just a little cam chain off a suzuki.

Title: Re: Cam Chain Issues
Post by Peter_the_blacksmith on 05/14/07 at 23:54:01

Good idea to start a specific topic about this dilemma, that we'll all be in for, sooner or later. As I live in Europe, like some other members, I can give you an opinion that is most common (?) over here.
We don't think it has anything to do with the oil. We seem to have agreed, that synthetic oils are no good for the Savage, since the clutch starts to slip. This does not happen with mineral oil. In my bike I use Quaker State 10 w 40 mineral oil for mc, and I change every 3k kilometer. (Always change the filter when you change the oil, what good is it to have new oil going through a dirty filter?) It seems, from postings I've read during the years, that the old four-gear models did not have this problem. So I think it simply is that Suzuki is buying these parts from another company, and the quality is less good. Pity it seems to be impossible to get in touch with anybody in the company directly !! >:( From what I recall, the "old" Savages did run well without any camchain rattle to about 50k kilometers. I have a chain in my workshop, that is run 60k kms. It is just slightly longer, you can barely see it is worn a bit, so it sure was not bad quality. The chap who had it changed it at 60k kms when it started to rattle. No problems at all before that.
To cope with this "new" problem, brains are working to develop a modified chaintensioner, that will not "pop out".
There are some good pictures at the German site http://www.ls-650.de/community/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1168393837
and at http://www.ls-650.de/Thumperbike/html/body_steuerkettenspanner.html
here is a good picture of Norbert's invention : http://www.ls-650.de/Thumperbike/html/body_steuerkettenspanner_tbks3.html
Soon we will have reports coming in about how well it works.... 8)

Title: Re: Cam Chain Issues
Post by Oldfeller2 on 05/15/07 at 03:23:53

Is there an aftermarket source for a higher quality cam chain? If you are going to have to pay $70-$80 bucks for a new chain eventually, wouldn't it make sense to get a good one?

Oldfeller

Title: Re: Cam Chain Issues
Post by K1200LTryder on 05/15/07 at 04:56:18

The tensioner problems are an inherent, intended design flaw. Once the bike is off warranty, poof ! There goes the chain system, and it's off to the dealer for an expensive repair job.

Nissan did the same thing with the Pulsar many years ago, but they got CAUGHT . The distributors in the cars were designed to implode after no more than 50,000 miles....some made it to 51, but most failed at 49 thou. ( after the 48,000 mile warranty expired ). You could not buy a distributor for the Pulsar from anywhere but a Nissan dealer, at the tune of over 500 bucks.

Nissan got sued for it, and had to pay up, plus fix the design problem...which they did.

I betcha a dollar Suzuki is doing the same thing.

JMHO

Title: Re: Cam Chain Issues
Post by Savage_Rob on 05/15/07 at 05:21:33

Other areas that may be difficult to quantify objectively would be riding conditions/climate and riding style like block-to-block, high-speed freeway, stop-n-go freeway, etc. as well as the possible tendency of a given rider to either wind out gears or lug the engine. I know the changes in oil formulations are being discussed but I also think that general maintenance is another big point. I mean, I am pretty religious about changing the oil very regularly in mine and, except for a one-week experiment with Rotella-T, I have used exclusively full synthetic motorcycle-specific oil, either 15w50 or 20w50. At my next oil change, I intend to inspect my cam chain assembly just so I know where I stand. For reference, mine is a '98 that I purchased with 1640 miles on it and now have roughly 9K miles on it. The 1640 was what was on the odometer and, based on the condition the bike at the time of purchase, I have no reason to suspect that it wasn't correct.

Title: Re: Cam Chain Issues
Post by justin_o_guy on 05/15/07 at 05:35:12

I got the OEM, but, the cryo approach is supposed ti increase the life by several times over. Some engines are run 12 times as long as usual ( 2 stroke racing engines) & at tear down need nothing. So, the point I am makind is, a new chain could possibly run about the life of the bike. ! more chain & one 50 $$ treatment & you are done. Hows that sound?

Title: Re: Cam Chain Issues
Post by KenGLong on 05/15/07 at 06:10:52

justin_o_guy wrote:

1 more chain & one 50 $$ treatment & you are done. Hows that sound?

Sounds good to me. I might just send mine off to get treated. It would take me about three years to find out if it did any good.

Ken

Title: Re: Cam Chain Issues
Post by justin_o_guy on 05/15/07 at 06:45:04

After a short chat with one of the really educated among us I have just a bit more info. I won't quote him, not because i dont want to give credit, but to make sure I dont misrepresent what he meant. He can make a complete statement when he is ready. Awwright, this is what I got from it all & it may be revised after more variables are considered, BUT, as it stands, lets give the vertical change between the centers of the cam & crank a .015" deflection.

The rest is from me, don't blame him!!
Now, If the tensioner catches a new "slot" in the ratchet when the engine cools & then ya go for a ride & the cam & crank move away from each other by .015 inches, what stresses are involved? Will the rear guide deflect enough to protect the chain from excessive stresses?NOt if it's straight, it won't( My opinion) An idea I've just had that might help a bit would be a spring installed between the Rear Guide & Tensioner. I wonder if a spring there would keep the tensioner from grabbing another slot until the chain is loose enough to allow it to happen without the thermal expansion of the engine stretching on the chain so hard. I know I am not making that point clear. I hope someone can finish it out. Surely someone will understand.
This spring needs to be stronger than the one in the tensioner.

Title: Re: Cam Chain Issues
Post by azjay on 05/15/07 at 06:55:37

i dont think the issue is chain stretch, it seems to be adjuster wear, an inferior nylon/plastic(poor friction qualities) regardless of oil choice. i haven't seen anybody report a chain that was stretched/worn beyond MFR specs. i just took the cover off the 8000mile '97 engine i bought from bikemom28(thanks again!) and the tensioner was extended 20mm. i've got a new tension guide on order from http://crotchrocket.com/ i'll measure the chain length and report back on it soon.
i recently took the 2.9l v6 out of my '87 broncoII, it uses the same arrangement, it was fine, and it has 200,000 miles on it.

Title: Re: Cam Chain Issues
Post by KenGLong on 05/15/07 at 07:05:02

justin_o_guy wrote:

You mean that the distance between the camshaft gear and the crankshaft gear will change by that amount during the normal heat-cold cycle and with other normal engine stresses?

Quote:

The rest is from me, don't blame him!!
Now, If the tensioner catches a new "slot" in the ratchet when the engine cools & then ya go for a ride & the cam & crank move away from each other by .015 inches, what stresses are involved? Will the rear guide deflect enough to protect the chain from excessive stresses?NOt if it's straight, it won't( My opinion) An idea I've just had that might help a bit would be a spring installed between the Rear Guide & Tensioner. I wonder if a spring there would keep the tensioner from grabbing another slot until the chain is loose enough to allow it to happen without the thermal expansion of the engine stretching on the chain so hard. I know I am not making that point clear. I hope someone can finish it out. Surely someone will understand.
This spring needs to be stronger than the one in the tensioner.

I think I understand you. If the vertical movement is more than the guides can compensate for, then the adjuster will pop out to the next ratchet notch. When the engine stresses cause the chain to get stretched again, the adjuster is keeping it too tight and adding to the speed of the chain wear?

If you add another spring to prevent this wouldn't that also prevent the adjuster from doing the job it was designed to do?

Ken

Title: Re: Cam Chain Issues
Post by justin_o_guy on 05/15/07 at 07:24:57

You did get what I was so miserably trying to say! cool,, & thanks. Maybe try to look at it like this. You have a self adjusting tensioner that seems to be taking up slack that it really shouldn't, so, stick a short throw, stout spring in series with it, so that when it does grab a new notch, it will be compressing the other, ( the new, short, stout spring) instead of just mercilessly tugging at the cam chain. It wouldnt keep the tensioner form adjusting, just keep it from adjusting too soon.

Yea, the thermal expansion of aluminum at the operating temp of the engine would appear to be enough to cause the engine to "grow" .015" between the center of the crank & cam. Easy enough to visualize, about 1/2 of an old spark plug gap. If the tensioner has the chain pulled tight & then the thing gets taller by .015", that's a pretty brutal strain on the chain. Something must be giving some, or I dont see how it would last as long as it does. Maybe the rear guides are supposed to have a curved profile from the factory? Odd, the book says nothing, or have I overlooked that?

Title: Re: Cam Chain Issues
Post by KenGLong on 05/15/07 at 07:57:28

azjay wrote:

i dont think the issue is chain stretch

Someone here thought the same thing and replaced only the "tensioner" (what we normally think of as the rear guide). His adjuster was still too far extended after reassembly so he replaced the chain (even though it was still in spec) and that brought the adjuster back to where it should be for long life.

Even though the chain stretch doesn't cause it to be out of spec, replacing the chain seems to bring the adjuster back to a normal setting.

Ken

Title: Re: Cam Chain Issues
Post by Peter_the_blacksmith on 05/15/07 at 07:57:55

The cam chain for a Kawasaki ZZR 600 fits the Savage, and is MUCH cheaper, at least here in Europe. ;)
Don't know if it maybe lasts better than the Savage's original one... Anyone who can make a comment on that out of experience ? 8)

Title: Re: Cam Chain Issues
Post by K1200LTryder on 05/15/07 at 08:12:20

Good point Justin_o_guy, BUT...the timing chain has a driven side, and a slack side. I believe the flexability of the rear tensioner would compensate for engine growth, and if anything, the cam would advance on a heat cycle....not by much, but you would still have some cam timing advance.

If the cam chain was set with no slack, IE; small block chevy, then there would be a problem with an overly tight chain, bearing failure et al.

The design of the Suzuki chain is a 'silent' running style, a roller chain would not be so prone to stretch, but would be noisier. My CBX has 2 roller style chains driving the cams, they are noisy, but I love the mechanical sounds produced by them...after about 50,000 miles on them, no sign of wear at all, not the chains, nor the guides.

The LS650 was designed as an entry level beginner bike that looks good and suits a range of riders that are 'slight' of build.

Perfect bike for shorter inseams, and for folks that want the riding experience at a low cost....you can buy a brand new on for 4 grand...that's pretty cheap for a new bike !

Too bad they are so cheaply built tho...

Title: Re: Cam Chain Issues
Post by verslagen1 on 05/15/07 at 08:16:20

I have a new tensioner guide, it was straight as supplied by factory. The backbone is spring steel. I doubt that it was bent in transit. SSM doesn't mension curve, in pictures it looks straight.

Justin you're right. Assuming everything is 200°F, there's a .014" difference in the growth between the cylinder and chain. There will be more if the cylinder is hot and the chain cool.

Ken, I agree with you, it's not only chain stretch. It's chain teeth wear.

Title: Re: Cam Chain Issues
Post by K1200LTryder on 05/15/07 at 09:42:21

I put in a new rear guide, new adjuster, and still the plunger was protruding out 18MM. The chain measured very close to being new. So I did the welded tab mod, 5/8" center to center, and now the plunger comes out 3 clics.

Bike runs great, and I can forsee no problems with the fix.

The simpler, the better !

Title: Re: Cam Chain Issues
Post by KenGLong on 05/15/07 at 10:01:09

Peter_the_blacksmith wrote:

The cam chain for a Kawasaki ZZR 600 fits the Savage, and is MUCH cheaper, at least here in Europe. ;)

I just checked at BikeBandit.com and the Savage chain is actually less money by a little bit. (2002 LS650 vs 2004 ZZR 600)

Ken

Title: Re: Cam Chain Issues
Post by vroom1776 on 05/15/07 at 10:38:50

Does anyone remember any cam chain... failures from the heise forum? from what I gather, no.

if anyone wants to take the time to go through it all, I have the first 19k messages in a zip file.

Title: Re: Cam Chain Issues
Post by KenGLong on 05/15/07 at 13:03:20

I'll search that zip. Send it to me at

kenglong at comcast dot net

Ken

Title: Re: Cam Chain Issues
Post by vroom1776 on 05/15/07 at 13:10:42

sent. hasn't bounced back yet.

Title: Re: Cam Chain Issues
Post by Odar on 05/15/07 at 13:51:07

Here is something I found on the net;

gstwins.com/gsboard/index.php?topic=32055.msg354283

Looks like someone did the same as Reelthing,
If I understand it correct???
And some other stuff about the camchain
Odar

Title: Re: Cam Chain Issues
Post by Max_Morley on 05/15/07 at 18:51:02

From Bert's forum, Max remembers one from a San Diego commuter who went about 90K miles before it was a problem. Last I remember he fixed it and his wife was riding it after he got a sportster. I do not recollect any others. Max

Title: Re: Cam Chain Issues
Post by vroom1776 on 05/16/07 at 07:25:56

that darn file was corrupted. I swear I've got another somehere that I already unzipped...

Title: Re: Cam Chain Issues
Post by Savage_Rob on 05/16/07 at 07:46:47

vroom1776 wrote:

that darn file was corrupted. I swear I've got another somehere that I already unzipped...

I have it. I emailed it to Ken. If you'll get me your email, I'll get it to you also. I used 7-Zip because it created a file less than 5 MB while a Zip would be well over 20 MB. It also gets through some corporate email filters that disallow Zip files. Try http://www.7-zip.org/ if your archival utility doesn't handle 7-Zips.

Title: Re: Cam Chain Issues
Post by KenGLong on 05/16/07 at 17:25:34

Savage_Rob wrote:

I have it. I emailed it to Ken.

Got it. I'm reading now.

Title: Re: Cam Chain Issues
Post by tuxedo on 05/16/07 at 19:36:21

I'll take a copy of that, if anyone's just sending all willy-nilly. Email it to deletethisaccount@pizzapimps.com. No worries on spams, I'll just remove the account after I receive the zip.

Title: Re: Cam Chain Issues
Post by Savage_Rob on 05/17/07 at 06:19:10

Let me know if you're able to retrieve it from this link. You'll probably want to do the right-click and save-as thing.

Bert Heise's LS650 Page - Messages 0-19000 (http://rob.savageriders.com/docs/Bert_Heise's_LS650_Page_Messages_0-19000.7z)

Try http://www.7-zip.org/ if your archival utility doesn't handle 7-Zips.

Title: Re: Cam Chain Issues
Post by KenGLong on 05/17/07 at 06:34:45

I will be summarizing the relevant information from those archives but, in general, I can say that those old messages indicate that this is not a new problem. True, it wasn't as common in past years but it was still there.

There was one person who offered a possible theory. He thought it might be related to low oil level. I haven't looked into that yet but it sure can't hurt to make sure our bikes are always topped up on oil. I know mine loses a bit when I ride it hard and I have to check the level every day if I'm doing a lot of freeway miles.

My own thought is that just maybe, we Savage riders of today are riding many more miles than people used to. The cam chain issue might be due to that plus a couple of weak design issues in the engine. (I say weak only in the sense that if the bike were a little higher up on the price ladder, Suzuki might have done some things differently.)

Ken

Title: Re: Cam Chain Issues
Post by azjay on 05/17/07 at 07:11:42

measured the cam chain from the '97 8000mile motor last night, about 127.38mm
does the DR650 have a similar problem? how about one of the other mfrs? there is plenty of aluminum thumpers out there, what do they do for cam chain tensioners?

Title: Re: Cam Chain Issues
Post by verslagen1 on 05/18/07 at 11:41:13

2.38mm .094" longer than new... .02" over the max.

And only 8k miles? You got this from bikemom?

She must be one bad ass biker chic!

Hot on the throttle and no oil! :o

Title: Re: Cam Chain Issues
Post by Savage_Rob on 05/18/07 at 12:09:40

verslagen1 wrote:

2.38mm .094" longer than new... .02" over the max.

And only 8k miles? You got this from bikemom?

She must be one bad ass biker chic!

Hot on the throttle and no oil! :o

I'm hoping it's the one that Debra's bike threw not long after running for a while with no oil. That little bit of extra heat and lack of lube might help explain it a bit.

Title: Re: Cam Chain Issues
Post by KenGLong on 05/18/07 at 12:29:33

azjay wrote:

Seems that the adjuster is doing its job. There seems to be a couple issues here. One is that the adjuster keeps adjusting until it runs out of plunger then comes apart. Second is that the chain wears and/or stretches too fast. If we can fix the chain part of the equation, the adjuster will be able to do its job properly.

I would like to see at least 50,000 miles before replacing the cam chain.

Title: Re: Cam Chain Issues
Post by Savage_Rob on 05/18/07 at 13:06:06

KenGLong wrote:

If that's the case, I wonder about the previously suggested cryo treatment or if there's a better quality chain available that would fit.

Title: Re: Cam Chain Issues
Post by verslagen1 on 05/18/07 at 14:35:44

I beleave the rachet is ment to prevent oscillations in the chain if left to spring tension only.

If a damper could be fit in there then the thermal growth/overtight chain issue can be eliminated.

I think the second heavier spring could work too. But needs trial and error. Too heavy of a spring will yield the same result. And too light may be even worse.

Title: Re: Cam Chain Issues
Post by KenGLong on 05/18/07 at 20:07:02

Savage_Rob wrote:

If that's the case, I wonder about the previously suggested cryo treatment or if there's a better quality chain available that would fit.

I've contacted the company in Texas about this. I plan to send my new chain to them for the treatment. I guess this means that I'll have to ride my Savage for a few years more to see if it helps. (Twist my arm, I says!)

Title: Re: Cam Chain Issues
Post by Max_Morley on 05/18/07 at 20:53:44

My experience in other thumpers and one Kawa twin in our Kawa MULE 1000 is that the system is pretty much the same. Some use manual adjusters that have to be done on a maintenance interval. Others use hydraulic (engine oil pressure) to reset the plunger if needed. My guides (Suzuki calls them tensioner) were flat w/o sign of wear unlike some of the Honda's I've had apart that had a definite grove worn in them. The chain and guides on the Kawa MULE were worn so much I could install the chain with the tensioner fully extended. It came with the engine in pieces in the bed and I didn't meet the diassembler until after it was back together and running. He had done a great job of keeping related fasteners in parts in baggies with the parts. Engine was toast from an air intake duct problem and probably from running low on oil as the cylinders were worn out and it had been bored once. FYI Suzuki parts are cheap compared to those parts. cylinders are wet and have to be machined to fit the pistons and decked to fit the block. 2 CV carbs and no parts, new carbs sets on the brackets over $600. Engine and torque converter cost over $3500 for parts. That said my wife and her dogs have put over 1500 miles on it in a year so in a couple more years it will have amortized out. For sure there is no whining about motorcycle maintenance costs. And the cycle license plate frame says "50 MPG and one less car". Until more information is available and some standards to measure as folks service the chain, guides, gears, and tensioner and we have some knowledge of oil ratings used we are not being very scientific. Max

Title: Re: Cam Chain Issues
Post by justin_o_guy on 05/18/07 at 22:31:33

With a spring built into the mount to the rear guide the tensioner ratchet can get a "New" slot & the spring in the guide mount would soak up the stresses of the thermal expansion. As the chain loosened up, the strong spring would cease to be collapsed by the thermal expansion of the block. As the chain loosened further, the tensioner rod would start to oscillate in & out as the engine & chain went thru their respective heat expansion cycles untill it finally stuck out far enuff to catch a new slot.

Another question is<<< How hot does the cam chain get while the engine is "growing" .015 " & at that temperature, how is the overall length of the chain affected? Sure would be nice if it was close to .03"... Somehow, I doubt the thermal expansion rate of steel is even close to Aluminum & secondly, the cam chain isnt subjected to near the heat as the jug, since the jug gets an occasional fire/explosion set off inside it & the chain gets a steady oil bath to keep it cool & slick.
Whats the "Best Guess" of the engineers for the operating temp of the chain & the thermal expansion based on that temp?

Title: Re: Cam Chain Issues
Post by azjay on 05/19/07 at 06:35:33

Savage_Rob wrote:

I'm hoping it's the one that Debra's bike threw not long after running for a while with no oil. That little bit of extra heat and lack of lube might help explain it a bit.

i dont have debby's engine apart yet, that is bikemom's chain @ 8000mi. i was up at dad's shop the other day, and looked down at the suzi's odometer, it shows 9500mi, debby put 4000mi on that bike in 6mos! yeah, we ride 'em!

Title: Re: Cam Chain Issues
Post by azjay on 05/19/07 at 19:19:55

verslagen1 wrote:

2.38mm .094" longer than new... .02" over the max.

And only 8k miles? You got this from bikemom?

She must be one bad ass biker chic!

Hot on the throttle and no oil! :o

something is wrong with the math, 128.9mm (max)- 127.4mm allows 1.5mm service length remaining.

Title: Re: Cam Chain Issues
Post by verslagen1 on 05/19/07 at 20:37:41

I should know better to do math with numbers I didn't quite remember and sitting at a perfectly good conversion tool. Only defense was I was hurring to get back to my real job. ;D

Thanks for the catch.

Title: Re: Cam Chain Issues
Post by vroom1776 on 05/23/07 at 16:41:31

based on the changes in oil theory:

independent scientific oil report (http://www.ibmwr.org/otech/oilreport.html)

Title: Re: Cam Chain Issues
Post by borne2fly on 05/24/07 at 00:18:21

I have to wonder what would happen if I just replaced the tensioner with a manually adjustable bolt & locknut mechanism, and figured on pulling the clutch cover every 5000 miles or so to adjust it. And possibly fabricate a small inspection window to expedite the adjustment.

No, that would never do, it would put an end to catastrophic cam chain tensioner failures and all those poor mechanics in the service dept would have nothing to do ....

Title: Re: Cam Chain Issues
Post by Oldfeller2 on 05/24/07 at 04:04:31

Keep that "threaded thing pulling" thought and extended it out through an oil-tight fitting right out through the front side of the case (yeah, you'd have to drill and tap a hole).

An external manually adjusted "pull" that doesn't back up but is controlled by your fingers to the appropriate tension level (hot or cold, your pick).

Downside is you'd have to fiddle with it every few weeks to keep perfect tune, bi-monthly if you just wanted to make sure no noise developed.

Upside, no spring thingy to come apart and dump pieces in your gears. Also unlimited forward adjustment until your chain literally rubbed inself on the other side of the gap.

Ponder on that thought a bit.

Oldfeller

Title: Re: Cam Chain Issues
Post by trooper3 on 05/24/07 at 09:19:32

The external adjustment of the cam chain is what was used on the Honda XR 4 stroke dirt bikes I used to have for my kids. The Service Manual said when you heard "excessive" cam chain noise, you loosened an external locknut, screwed in the adjuster until the noise lessened, and retightened the locknut. In the years my kids rode the bikes I only adjusted them once (only around 3,000 total miles on them during that time but none of the miles were "easy" if you know what I mean, ridden hard and put away wet).
Rick C.

Title: Re: Cam Chain Issues
Post by Savage_Rob on 05/24/07 at 10:12:25

There are already several threads with a lot of duplication of effort on this topic so since this was related I moved it here to keep the info together as much as possible.

borne2fly wrote:

The cam chain tensioner seems to be a major source of concern, apparently this thing can ultimately extend itself so far as to come apart and drop into the gears. Lovely. I'm thinking of fabricating an old-fashioned screw type manually adjustable tensioner. Yes, it would be a pain because I'd have to pull the clutch cover ever 5K miles or so to check the adjustment, but that's better than losing my engine. Besides, Harley uses a chain between the engine and tranny and after about 10k miles it seems to have done 90% of the stretching it's going to do.

Any feedback on this? Has anyone already done it?

Title: Re: Cam Chain Issues
Post by verslagen1 on 05/24/07 at 11:56:59

Thanks Rob! ;D

If you're going to a manual adjuster, I think you need to be in there every 2-3k miles. Worst case; 9mm project at zero miles, 18mm at 10k. So at 1k it will be 1mm loose. How loose can it be before adjustment is necessary?

The owners manual (Hey Greg, :o I read the manual) says to tighten the head bolts every 4k miles. To do this you have pop the head cover. And you easily take off the clutch cover at the same time. Will converting to manual adjustment prolong the cam drive system?

Except for replacing the tensioner adjuster, guides, chain and gasket often enough to make a jewish scotsman cry, we have a good, quiet system. Just needs a little more attention than one that's in $10k bike.

Title: Re: Cam Chain Issues
Post by borne2fly on 05/24/07 at 12:28:04

I don't know if a manually adjustable tensioner would extend the life of the chain, but I do know that having loose pieces of automatic tensioner falling into your gears will shorten the life of the engine :)

Title: Re: Cam Chain Issues
Post by Savage_Rob on 05/24/07 at 13:27:46

borne2fly wrote:

Which is why the pin portion of the Slavy/Verslagen1 modified tensioner is nice. It keeps the tensioner piston from falling out.

Title: Re: Cam Chain Issues
Post by Oldfeller2 on 05/24/07 at 13:41:36

Borne2fly,

My extended life comment was that you would be able to continue making adjustments un-abated until the chain hit itself. The German Savage group figured out a way to do this trick and our own group figured out another way to do this same trick that cost a good bit less money.

But both methods still mean you take off the side cover multiple times over the total possible adjustment life of the chain itself (30,000-50,000 miles).

Since I have 10,000 more miles to go before participating in this tensioner fire-drill, I am considering a one-shot alteration method that would either be externally adjusted (the pull screw system) or maybe a really long travel spring unit that would be replaced just once and would be good to go from then on until the chain hit itself.

The standard Savage cam chain tensioner unit is a joke as far as total adjustmement travel goes. A replacement tensioning system simply has to be able to do significantly better for travel as taking the cover off multiple times is "undesireable" to me if all you are going to be doing it for is to service the short stroke of the cam chain tensioner.

I want to go in there just once at 15,000 miles and replace the sucker with something much longer lasting (along with washer shimming my clutch springs to make the clutch a more robust arrangement and perhaps replacing the friction plates with some better plates if some exist at that point in time).

I certainly don't want to do it more than once.

Oldfeller

Title: Re: Cam Chain Issues
Post by verslagen1 on 05/24/07 at 14:03:14

Our home grown method will mean you need to reposition the tensioner guide to the new hole somewhere between 10 and 30k miles. And if you do my mod, a noisey engine will tell you when. ;D

It doesn't mean you shouldn't do required inspections in the mean time.

Title: Re: Cam Chain Issues
Post by borne2fly on 05/24/07 at 15:16:39

Oldfeller,

I like the idea of a tensioner with a longer travel but it seems like a pain to build. Does anyone make one that could be modified to fit?

If I went with a manually adjusted tensioner, I would tend to adjust it a little on the loose side so the chain wouldn't get too tight when the engine warmed up. If it ran a little loose like that all the time, what would be the harm except a very slight lead/lag in the valve train? I understand that for optimal performance I would want to get in and adjust it quite often, but if I didn't care about optimal performance I might be able to let it go between adjustments for thousands of miles. Another post somewhere suggested that the existing tensioner tightened everything up even when the engine is cold, which I imagine would result in an overtightened chain when the engine warmed up, resulting in accelerated chain stretch. Running it somewhat looser might extend the life of the thing, what do you think?

Title: Re: Cam Chain Issues
Post by borne2fly on 05/24/07 at 15:21:19

K1200LTryder,

> .... So I did the welded tab mod, 5/8" center to center, and now the plunger comes out 3 clics.

What is the welded tab mod? Are you adding 5/8" to the moving arm of the tensioner?

Title: Re: Cam Chain Issues
Post by borne2fly on 05/24/07 at 15:41:21

Another idea ......

How about cutting a lengthwise slot in the tensioner piston (plunger?) and drilling/tapping a hole for a set screw in the barrel? The set screw would ride in the slot and allow the plunger to move, but would prevent the plunger from falling out (the slot would not run the entire length of the plunger). You might lose the last few mm of range but at least the thing would not come apart. And I'd use red loctite for the set screw.

Actually a slot wouldn't be necessary, all you'd need is a flat spot on one side that went almost to the end of the plunger.

Title: Re: Cam Chain Issues
Post by verslagen1 on 05/24/07 at 17:42:39

Well, if you'd read all the cam chain post's you'd know that's what I'm talking about.

I got a few that I'm making up for other's. After abit more miles, I'll check my mod for reliability. After that, I'll offer to make more for others. Soon. ;D

Title: Re: Cam Chain Issues
Post by vroom1776 on 05/24/07 at 17:58:09

Cam Chain Issue Library (http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?board=tech;action=display;num=1176999168)

there's a lot here... and more to come...

Title: Re: Cam Chain Issues
Post by K1200LTryder on 05/25/07 at 04:18:00

Yes Born2fly....weld a tab on the end of the plunger and drill the proper size hole in it, not my idea, It is all verslagens fault (I think)....by the time the plunger is ready to pop out, the chain itself would be in contact with the driven side.

The most effective fix I've found here, and the simplest one at that !

Title: Re: Cam Chain Issues
Post by verslagen1 on 05/25/07 at 07:11:17

No can't take credit for that, the welded tab was (to my knowledge) 1st presented here by slavy. It's his fault. ;D

My Idea is to lock the adjuster plunger and housing together with a pin and slot. ;D

Title: Re: Cam Chain Issues
Post by borne2fly on 05/26/07 at 11:21:07

Verslagen1 said ....
"My Idea is to lock the adjuster plunger and housing together with a pin and slot".

Yep, I like it. I'm getting a new TA soon and will do exactly that.

Title: Re: Cam Chain Issues
Post by tbalam on 05/26/07 at 13:22:52

I created a new plunger from some 5/8th inch screw rod. I sanded it down to just fit in the current cylinder. This allowed me to make the piston longer. I then drilled the piston on one end with a 7/16th's bit until I had a bout 3/4 of an inch of the end of the rod left. I drilled and threaded the the undrilled end of the piston to a final size of #8 metric bolt. I purchased a #8 eye bolt and threaded it into the piston.

Know it's all back together, and I have had no problems with it after at least 500 miles. I figure with this set-up I can go let the piston adjust the cam chain as normal and then when it is time to service the clutch and give things a good inspection I can reset the piston by unscrewing the eye bolt some. This should just about double the life of the cam chain.

Title: Re: Cam Chain Issues
Post by azjay on 05/29/07 at 07:15:40

i swapped in a brand new tensioner slider into the '97 8000 mile motor i got from bikemom28, it made absolutely NO difference in the adjuster's extension, still out 20mm. so i put the origional slider back in (i'll save the new one for debby's '96 engine), and did the slavy mod to the adjuster. appearantly 50% stretch on the cam chain WILL over extend the adjuster, which certainly dispells my earlier statement about chains not being the issue :-/

Title: Re: Cam Chain Issues
Post by flubbyhead on 05/29/07 at 09:42:55

Hey, Hello everyone! New Savage owner here, Flubbyhead. My 96 was making noise at 6,200 miles. I thought it was loud but my other little thumper makes noise, also. Long to short, the tensioner popped out at 6,900 and I luckily limped home with no interference of valves and piston. I am waiting for the rundown on this issue. As Always,
Uncle Flub

Title: Re: Cam Chain Issues
Post by Savage_Rob on 05/29/07 at 10:30:27

flubbyhead wrote:

Welcome to the site! I'd seriously wonder if the bike didn't have more miles than that odometer shows.

Title: Re: Cam Chain Issues
Post by vroom1776 on 06/13/07 at 06:11:33

A piece of info from vroom:

1997 bike, ~13k miles. replaced: cam chain, both tensioners (plastic-tefllon slides), and plunger-spring-housing (these parts may still exist in massachusetts!)

4 years and ~12k miles later, I checked the plunger. 21.5 mm +- 0.5 mm extended from plunger. front tensioner (slide) looks good. forgot to check rear. Almost always used Penzoil 10-40 oil, every 1k miles. definitely no sludge in oil. going to have the tab wleded on there today.

will check the 1998 soon.

Title: Re: Cam Chain Issues
Post by vroom1776 on 06/29/07 at 10:48:34

had a tab welded on to plunger (versalven mod, good work guys!). sticks out 6 mm +- 0.5 mm

will check in fall/winter. rear slide had no grooves. did not measure chain.

Title: Re: Cam Chain Issues
Post by verslagen1 on 06/29/07 at 11:14:21

to be specific, the welded tab is slavy's idea.
My mod is the pin and slot in addition to the welded tab.

Title: Re: Cam Chain Issues
Post by vroom1776 on 06/29/07 at 11:51:06

aha...

I actually meant to type "ver-slavy" :P

none the less, great work!

feel like doing an article specifically for the tech sect?

Title: Re: Cam Chain Issues
Post by Savage_Rob on 07/05/07 at 04:47:32

Well, I just installed the Slavy-Verslagen modded adjuster yesterday, as well as new clutch springs. I guess it was only slightly too soon also. Pics below of the old one in place show the extension at 9375 miles on the odometer on my bike. Yeah, there was still some old gasket material on there when I took the pics. In general, she was nearly fully extended but not enough to damage the adjuster yet.

http://rob.savageriders.com/images/2007-07-04%20Cam%20Chain%20Tensioner%20Adjuster.jpg

http://rob.savageriders.com/images/2007-07-04%20Right%20Side.jpg

To give you a better idea, I'll include the below image. This is not from my bike. However, at 9375 miles, this same mod was installed and I first used the left hole but that only left 1mm of space before the safety pin would hit the far right side of the slot. I then installed it using the right hole and the Safety pin is now 1mm from the far left end of the slot. So I figure I should get at least another 5k-6k miles before she hits the end of the slot and starts to rattle a warning. I do feel better having the safety pin in place to allow a warning instead of the piston dropping out and grenading the engine.

http://rob.savageriders.com/images/Slavy-Verslagen%20Tensioner%20Mod.jpg

Title: Re: Cam Chain Issues
Post by PhotoProf on 07/05/07 at 19:27:40

I wonder if our friend Tkat could crank out the necessary component for the tensioner so those who aren't metal fabricators could upgrade to a better system. If he has access to a CNC system and knowledge of metals, etc., it would seem that he could be a valuable resource in this little project.

Title: Re: Cam Chain Issues
Post by verslagen1 on 07/07/07 at 11:10:36

Modified adjusters are available if you know where to look.

http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?board=Market;action=display;num=1180206459