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R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist (Read 1534 times)
ThumperPaul
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Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist
Reply #300 - 12/30/23 at 06:30:41
 
Thank Mike, Gary, and Dave.

Great instruction and photos Mike.  I’m going to address the items at the head gasket level today (bolt protrusion, buildup around edge to cylinder, dowel relocation).  Then get the head and rear cam chain guide reinstalled.

I appreciate the sealant application instructions.  I will definitely refer back to these when the time comes.  Before I get to that point, I’m going to need some tips and guidance on reinstalling the cam.  It should be reverse order of removal but getting the crankshaft in the right position and aligning the timing marks may get a bit complicated for me and I’ll want confirmation with a 2nd set of eyes or more.

Mike, I know you said not to risk putting the Webcam 466 in the bike because of the wear on the rocker arm pads.  But then it was also noted that the stock cam looked ok (I know you can’t put it in your hands and inspect it more closely and thoroughly.). I think we talked about the Webcam I bought from Dave.  It’s gently used, good condition, has some break-in miles, and I got it for a fraction of full retail price.  I’m inclined to install it and satisfy my ego by doing something meaningful while I’m in here (besides extracting a piece of wood I haphazardly broke off in the cylinder).

Gary raises a concern that has me doing a lot of research.  The cylinder wall cross hatching is worn out and possible scoring.  I’m going to see if I can get better photos with my endoscope camera this morning.  When I run my fingers around in there I don’t feel any scoring.  I need better eyesight or enlargeable photos to see and look for cross hatching.

I’m at the stage where I just want to get it back together.  Then make observation's about oil consumption, burning oil, and temperature.  I don’t want to dismiss Gary’s observation and very much welcome his feedback and input!  That said, I’ve also read that the erosion of cross hatching is an overrated metric in terms of determining overall engine health and condition.  It’s worn itself in this way between the rings and cylinder walls and might just like being left alone as is (me rationalizing a bit probably).
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Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist
Reply #301 - 12/30/23 at 10:07:14
 
The 8mm stud on the exhaust side (front side) is actually recessed maybe 0.5mm.  It won't interfere with the head gasket.
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8mm_exhaust_side_stud_depth.jpeg
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Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist
Reply #302 - 12/30/23 at 10:26:33
 
A few photos of the cylinder wall using the endoscope camera.  It's hard to get good photos with the lighting and mirror reflection.  I wasn't able to capture it in a photo very well, but there is still some cross hatching.  It's not ideal, but some is still there.

I admit the cylinder walls aren't pretty or ideal, but I'm forging ahead.  I'm thinking some of the "staining" or glazing or whatever you want to call it is the result of using carb cleaner and automatic transmission fluid in the cylinder trying to float woody to the top for extraction attempts.  AND, the bike had about 1 quart of gas mixed in the oil when I drained it upon getting the bike home after purchase.  The carb was in a flooding state and has since been rebuilt.  I'm thinking a lot of the weird discoloration in the cylinder and around the one area of the head gasket cylinder wall is burnt oil/gas staining.  In my mind, it could also be the cause of the cylinder losing its cross hatching.  

A burnt lube cocktail.  ??
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Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist
Reply #303 - 12/30/23 at 10:27:10
 
Weird...
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Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist
Reply #304 - 12/30/23 at 10:27:51
 
Not nice...
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Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist
Reply #305 - 12/30/23 at 10:28:46
 
Toasty.  Note: none of what you can see in the photos can be felt using my fingers.  It's like stained in the metal.
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Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist
Reply #306 - 12/30/23 at 10:34:18
 
Head Gasket with locating dowels in place in the head.
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« Last Edit: 12/30/23 at 13:23:22 by ThumperPaul »  

Head_Gasket_Surface.jpeg
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Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist
Reply #307 - 12/30/23 at 10:38:16
 
Left side studs in place.  Buttered the washers with anti-seize and oiled the threads and nuts.  They are only finger tight at this point.  The left rear stud that had been removed went in pretty cleanly and easily and seated.  The shoulder seems to be where it should be.
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Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist
Reply #308 - 12/30/23 at 10:52:31
 
The right rear stud that had been removed also found it's way back down into a solid seated position.  This one got a dose of pipe dope on the underside of the washer.

All the studs are basically finger tight and just pressed against the washers.  I could still stop and slam the operation in reverse at this point.  The copper crush washers haven't been molested and the head gasket hasn't received any pressure.

I didn't take a photo of the right front stud that's down in the rabbit hole - not much to see really.  He's buttered up with some anti-seize as well.

The 8mm front and rear have been loosely nutted up.

Nothing has been torqued at this point.

Cylmers gives the following ranges:

8mm = 23-27 nm
9mm = 29-33 nm

I'm putting the ratchet down for now.  Torque "ranges" bother me.  Be precise.  Be clear...  Do longer studs need more/less torque?  Do buttered nuts and threads get 33 and dry nuts and threads get 29?  Is 29 good and 33 is better?   Huh

And for example on the main long 9mm studs, for torque procedure, do you torque to 22nm on all the nuts crisscrossing around, then back up each of them a 1/4 crank, and then drive 'em home to 30nm?

Step away from the torque wrench, Paul!
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« Last Edit: 12/30/23 at 13:27:07 by ThumperPaul »  

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Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist
Reply #309 - 12/30/23 at 17:18:33
 
I am home now, and I can see the photos that you have posted of the cylinder.

It appears to me that the bike may have sat for an extended period with the piston up near the top of the bore.  And maybe the piston rings got a bit rusty/corroded and etched the cylinder wall at that point.  Then later on it got freed up and ran....and maybe contributed to the vertical scratches.

Lancer had a bike that sat for a couple of years when he moved to OK, and it suffered the rusty rings/cylinder event - it broke a ring when it came free and needed a new ring set and a cylinder hone to get it back to being healthy.

I just don't know if the piston/cylinder will work well as it is.......but you can try and will have most of the knowledge you need to remove the head and get to the piston/cylinder assembly if it doesn't work.  The Suzukibond will still be good - you will just need a new head gasket and copper washers...and a base gasket - plus whatever piston/cylinder arrangement you decide to use.  The cylinder you have may be a bit too damaged to hone and get a good fit for a new 94mm piston.
 
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Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist
Reply #310 - 12/30/23 at 17:29:57
 
Thanks Dave.  It doesn't look that severe to me.  We'll see.
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Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist
Reply #311 - 12/30/23 at 17:47:02
 
The cylinder does look a bit like mine did when the piston stuck in the bore when a start was attempted after a long down time.  The photo is hard to see clearly but there is a similarity.  Fortunately my cylinder cleaned up well and I’m still using it and it’s doing fine after yet another piston.  It will be interesting to see if this cylinder is useable after all.
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Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist
Reply #312 - 12/30/23 at 18:00:23
 
Paul, you are moving too fast for me.  I see some stuff that I’m not comfy with.  I think you should remove the head and clean off all the oil and anti-seize and pipe dope from the fasteners.

Your latest pictures of the cylinder are concerning.  I’m not worried about any lack of cross hatch, but the forward portion of the cylinder looks pretty bad.  Pictures of a cylinder bore are hard to interpret unless they are taken at just the right angle with just the right lighting and at high resolution.  But this particular area of your cylinder looks like it was subjected to a seizure.  Again, it’s hard to say for sure, but I’m not likin what I see here.

See the area circled in yellow.  Toward the top, I think I see smeared aluminum.  You need to check that area and see if you can get some good, clear, closeup photos.   As Dave mentioned, it could also be a corrosion footprint.  But that wouldn’t explain the smeared aluminum.  Could be a combination of problems.  Maybe it was frozen, then started, and seized as a result of the rough corroded surface.  We need better photos.
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Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist
Reply #313 - 12/30/23 at 18:01:10
 
If you look closely at the older photos that you posted, you can see the vertical lines in the rear of the cylinder.  Pistons generally seize on the front and back sides of the skirt.  That’s where the piston is the largest diameter.  Your suspect areas are front & rear.  The front side is the exhaust side, so the resulting damage is usually worst on the front side.  Your cylinder looks worse on the front side.

See the telltale vertical marks on the rear of your cylinder.  I believe these marks are what Gary was concerned about.  The picture is deceptive, everything looks so shiny until you blow it up.
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Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist
Reply #314 - 12/30/23 at 18:02:17
 
Until you get a solid handle on the condition of your cylinder, it’s probably not a good idea to reinstall the head.  You are only two 6mm nuts away from being able to remove the jug.  Of course, removing the cylinder will open a whole new can of worms.  But what the heck, you are getting pretty good at this stuff.

The endoscope photos are not clear enough for us to tell much about the cylinder.  You need to get some good lighting and get some clear closeups of that cylinder.

I‘m gonna post some guidance on the cylinder head installation.  I’m sure it won’t go to waste.

Getting the studs installed to the correct depth is very important.  You can’t just screw them back in and guess if they have sufficient thread engagement.   The studs are high strength alloy steel.  They are threaded into low strength aluminum.  You must have sufficient thread engagement to prevent the stud from pulling out of the case.  Those studs need to be installed a full 14 turns to achieve correct engagement.  When you install the studs in the case, you have to count turns.  I tested three studs this morning, and each one took 14-1/2 turns to fully install.  You need to remove your studs and verify that they go in at least 14 turns.
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