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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1702663873 Message started by ThumperPaul on 12/15/23 at 10:11:12 |
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Title: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/15/23 at 10:11:12 I want to start by sending out a special thanks to DragBikeMike and Dave who have been invaluable resources and friends as I've stumbled my way through the diary of Woody. This project is about to get underway because I decided to break off a piece of wooden dowel rod in the cylinder! Yep, I'm a dumb-arse. I've done all the easy stuff (seat, tank, exhaust, intake/carb removed). Today the oil gets drained and tomorrow I'll get her on the stand, upper motor mount removed, decomp bracket/cable off and/or out of the way, and right front foot peg, heat shield, and brake assembly stuff out of the way. Then I venture into uncharted waters for me - removing the cylinder head with the motor still in the frame. (I haven't done any major engine work in 40ish+ years.) That's where the "With Assist" comes into play! I'm going to need HELP please - despite reading and studying as best I could here and in Clymer! At the sage advice of those that have gone before me, I've printed out an enlarged diagram of the head cover (with help from the local copy center) and taped it to a cardboard box, reinforced, with holes punched where stuff goes. As I pull nuts, bolts, and washers from the head cover, they will get plugged into the cardboard diagram because I'm old, have a bad memory, and I like to lose stuff if I don't stay organized, plus it was sage advice! Since I don't want to say I pulled the cylinder head to remove a chunk of wood from the cylinder (that's already embarrassing enough here), the story will read that I did the following once this is all wrapped up. 1) piston and head cleaned 2) Installed Web-Cam 466 camshaft 3) CCT checked and (likely upgraded to a Verslavy CCT) 4) Clutch plates and fiber discs checked and cleaned/resurfaced/deglazed/replaced as needed 5) Barnett clutch springs installed 6) Install Sneeze clutch cam release Someone is going to tell me other specs I should check out while I'm in there (fire away!). So I'm getting this teed up! Thanks in advance! Here's Woody waiting for surgery (yeah, I flipped the exhaust heat shield over temporarily to hold things together until I get her on the stand). |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/15/23 at 13:26:27 Head cover diagram board is ready to go with a couple important notes about not removing S30 (exhaust rocket arm), and being sure to get the L65 and L70 bolt in place before the head cover is put back in position during reassembly. Use a clothes pin to prop up L70 while the head cover is put in place - so you don't smear Suzukibond (RTV) in/out of places it should and shouldn't go. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/15/23 at 14:14:58 A little history about this bike. I bought it from a young man that thought he wanted to make it his first bike. He rode it a while and then ran into starting problems. His friend installed a new battery, starter, and starter solenoid. He got it running again, but then it wouldn't start for him one day... I suspect the battery drained down from lack of riding/charging and/or a flooding carb. I was able to watch a video of it running about 2 months before I bought it. The bike has good bones, tires, wheels, forks, etc. and I only paid $600. I thought, hey, easy fixer upper... (charge the battery, clean the carb, give it some love) What have I done so far.... All basic maintenance is/was now done: 1) oil/filter was changed (now drained), 2) air filter, 3) replaced front brake pads, 4) inflated tires, 5) flushed and sealed gas tank, 6) carb cleaned and jets tinkered, 7) new petcock valve, fuel line and inline fuel filter. 8) installed and now removed used decomp and associated parts (from Versagen, thanks) When I had the gas tank off for cleaning is when I decided to go ahead and check the valve clearance and (drum roll) that's where my trouble started by breaking off a piece of dowel rod in the cylinder (yeah, dumb move but I wanted a visual while watching rocker arms and timing marks). The bike shows evidence of prior tinkering and tuning up. Not by the kid I bought it from but some prior owner in its past. The kid I bought it from was totally green and didn't even check the oil or air filter when he bought it. 1) It has an aftermarket exhaust - VooDoo Industries Cafe, about 17.5" depending how you measure, and it has a baffle. 2) It has a "Murray's Carb" (custom tuned Mikuni VM36 round slide). This is the same VM36 Lancer sells, but it's jetted significantly differently by Murray while all the other carb parts match what Lancer suggests/builds. This is a complete mystery that has me bumfuzzled because members have experienced good results with both set-ups. How can this be?! I'll figure this out later when it comes to carb tuning day. 3) Head cover has some old RTV showing on the valve cover side. It doesn't look like a factory job and clean up. Evidence the head cover and likely head have been R&R before, but for what, we will see... 4) Aftermarket "keystone style" handlebars 5) There was a tacky looking Skull bolted onto the right side cover (first thing I took off the bike). Obviously nothing to do with performance, but prior owner attitude. 6) The entire decompression solenoid, cable, bracket, lever, nut, and spring had been removed. Only the actuator shaft and oil seal were in place. 7) It had a beautiful valve clearance adjustment/spec when I finally went ahead and checked after my blunder with the dowel rod All were set right at .005" (.13mm) clearance (widest spec, closy valvy). I am encouraged. 8) Drained the oil on first day that I got the bike. 3 quarts came out (what is this stink?) - about 2 quarts of black oil and 1 quart gas. Carb flooding on top of dirty oil (not real thrilled on Day 1 with my bargain). 9) Dripping oil near the stator wire exist from the "alternator" side cover and/or from the drain hole under the starter. Cleaned up the stator wire area of old RTV and reapplied, and installed a fatter o-ring on the starter (Thanks Och). I think I fixed this leaky mess, but won't know until I get the oil moving around in the motor again. 10) upper motor mount has been previously R&R. Missing a couple flat washers and lock washers. That's about it. Let the fun begin! |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/15/23 at 14:16:51 RTV Squeeze Out, No clean up. Somebody has been in here before is what I'm thinking. Or would Suzuki send it out the factory like this? |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by Dave on 12/15/23 at 15:03:21 I like that you have an inspector on the job....the first photo clearly shows you are being watched. That RTV job does not look factory to me......you can do better than that. Neatness counts! Put on a thin bead about the size of a pencil lead in the center of the mating surface. At the cam plug you put the sealant in the recess on both the top and bottom of the plug - and it will not ooze out and make a mess. I will post a few photos in a day or two and show you how I do the sealant. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by Dave on 12/15/23 at 15:23:41 Or if you prefer black. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by Dave on 12/15/23 at 15:26:50 This should be a felony offense! |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by Dave on 12/15/23 at 15:29:58 This is waaaay too much sealant. If it oozed this much inside of the head cover - it likely got into the cam bearings! |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/15/23 at 16:09:23 LOL. I knew that rtv job didn't look right. The orange/red RTV job is definitely a felony offense! LOL. At least clean that mess up after the detailed work done inside!! Yeah, that's my assistant Midge! She likes to find things she shouldn't get into on the garage floor! She's found at least 3 plastic tip caulk applicators recently which she promptly chews into unusable pieces. I drop 'em and can't ever find 'em, but she'll find 'em like nothing hiding somewhere! |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/15/23 at 18:18:38 Dave, I just love that sealant picture. It’s a classic. Paul, I suggest you start by getting that engine positioned at TDC on the compression stroke. Since you have a chunk of wood in the cylinder, you need to be careful with rotation of the crankshaft. I suspect you might already have the thing positioned on the compression stroke, but it won’t hurt to verify that it’s actually on TDC compression. You want the thing on TDC compression so that the cam lobes are facing down into the oil reservoir, like this. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/15/23 at 18:19:16 If the engine is on TDC exhaust stroke, the cam lobes will be facing up. The stock cam doesn’t have much overlap, so I don’t think you would be fighting much spring pressure, but with the lobes facing up in the overlap position, you have less wiggle room for head cover removal. See how the cam lobes face up when the engine is at TDC exhaust stroke. You don’t want the cam in this position for head cover removal and installation. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/15/23 at 18:20:35 You can confirm that your engine is at TDC on the compression stroke by making sure the timing mark on the alternator rotor is properly aligned with the notch in the alternator cover, and by viewing the position of the cam through the open valve cover on the intake side. In case you are not familiar with the timing marks, I will post some pics. The alternator rotor has a TDC mark embossed in the face of the hub (red arrow). This is the mark in question. Note the relation of the keyway to the timing mark. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/15/23 at 18:21:08 When the crankshaft is positioned so that the piston is at TDC, the timing mark on the rotor will align with a notch cut in the alternator cover. On the motorcycle, when the piston is at TDC, the keyway is at the 12 o’clock position, and the timing mark is at the 3 o’clock position. Your problem is that you won’t know if it is at TDC compression or TDC exhaust. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/15/23 at 18:22:18 When the engine is at TDC compression, the cam is oriented like this. Note the oil hole in the Revised 12/27/23. How did I make such a rudimentary mistake. DBM |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/15/23 at 18:23:20 As it turns out, the oil hole in the See how you can see the oil hole in the cam lobe when you look through the intake valve cover. I know there isn’t much light, but if you look hard you can see it (yellow arrow). Revised 12/27/23. DBM |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/15/23 at 18:24:03 Once you have it at TDC compression, verify that there is play in your rocker arms. You should be able to jiggle them up & down a bit. Since the clearance is tight, I check them by pushing the rocker arms toward the right side of the engine. They have wave-washers on their right side so they can be moved quite a bit. When you push on them, they should move a little to the right, and when you release them they should spring back toward the left. Since you have been using the valve adjusters to jack open valves, you might even want to back off each adjuster a few turns to ensure everything is loose. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/15/23 at 18:25:12 Once you have positioned the engine at TDC compression, drain the oil. If your filter is new, you can probably leave it as-is, but if it is an old dirty filter, might as well take it out now. To prepare for clutch cover removal, remove the two 6mm bolts that secure your rear brake cable to the frame. Leave the brake cable attached to the brake pedal. Take off your heat shield and right-side foot rest assembly, and swing the whole mess under the frame. Just let it rest on the floor. The two 6mm bolts are located here. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/15/23 at 18:26:20 Now there should be nothing to interfere with clutch cover removal. You do not need to introduce a bunch of slack in the clutch cable. Just screw in the adjuster at your handlebar lever perch. That will be sufficient. Leave the jam nuts on your engine block alone. When you loosen the fasteners that secure your clutch cover to the engine, you will have more than enough play in the release mechanism to unhook your clutch cable from the lever on the clutch cover. See how the cable hooks into the little bracket on the lever arm. You have to bend the tab back, and then you will be able to slip the cable out of the keyhole slot. You shouldn’t need to mess with the jam nuts. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/15/23 at 18:27:06 There are 12 bolts that secure your clutch cover to the crankcase. Three of those bolts have sealing washers. Two of the bolts have dowels incorporated to align the cover. Those two bolts are longer. You need to keep track of these fasteners. Bag & tag them after removal. Position a drip pan under the clutch cover. Even though you have drained the oil, there is still a lot of residual oil left in the primary case. Loosen all the bolts about three turns, then lift up on the clutch release lever and unhook the clutch cable. Let the oil dribble out of the case for a while. When the waterfall subsides, remove all the bolts along with the clutch cover. The bolts with the sealing washers are circled in yellow, the longer bolts are circled in green. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/15/23 at 18:27:40 Remove your clutch cover and set it aside. Best store it in a plastic bag to keep it clean. Take some pictures of your clutch, clutch release mechanism, cam chain tensioner, etc. Then post the pictures so we can see how things look in there. Your preparation for head cover removal is excellent. You have the sketch all set to store your fasteners. Don’t worry too much if those fasteners get mixed up. The sketch shows you the exact length of each fastener, and whether or not it has a sealing washer. The fasteners are measured from the underside of the hex head to the end of the threads. This particular bolt is identified as L70 on the sketch. Note that it is 70mm long. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/15/23 at 18:29:32 You have already removed L65, C20, and the two C25s (all circled in yellow). Those fasteners secure the chrome beauty covers. While C20 and the two C25s aren’t too important, L65 + nut also serves to hold the head cover down. If you decide to ditch the useless chrome beauty covers, you will need a replacement bolt to take the place of L65. That’s pretty straight forward. You have also removed the four L20s (circled in yellow) that secure your valve covers to the head cover. These 20mm bolts are easy to mix up with L25. Try not to mix these fasteners up. The L25 bolts are subjected to load and need the extra 5mm of thread engagement. Do not remove S30 or L16 (crossed out in red). S30 secures your exhaust rocker arm shaft. Leave it alone. L16 secures your decompression shaft. Leave that alone also. Pay close attention to the two fasteners that reside within the confines of the engine. Those would be L25 (circled in green). They are located within the engine directly under the valve covers. They are easy to miss. Make sure you remove them before you attempt to lift the head cover. Also take steps to prevent mixing them up with L20 as previously noted. You probably already know that L70 can’t be removed from the head cover when the engine is still in the frame. You have to leave it in the head cover while you remove the head cover, and it must be installed into the head cover before you reinstall the head cover. You can’t get that fastener in or out with the engine in the frame. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/15/23 at 18:30:50 So, as I see it, you have 13 fasteners that still must be removed from the head cover. Take out the twelve that can be fully removed, and completely unscrew L70 in preparation for head cover removal. Leave the head cover in place. Take a few pictures of the head cover to show us how things look. Post those pics along with any comments or questions, and we can forge ahead from there. Once we can see that you have the head cover ready for removal, we can provide guidance on how to break it loose and get it off the engine. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/15/23 at 18:49:16 Thank you, Mike! This is excellent detail!! I will read and refer to this multiple times! I drained the oil today. I should still be okay to turn the motor to find TDC without worry, right?! I don’t want to dry hump it too much I know! Thanks for pointing out loosening the nuts and valve adjusters. I was meaning to ask about that. The L70 bolt is way longer than I would have thought! Wow! The photos and mark ups are incredibly helpful to me! Thank you!! I’m very much a visual and hands on person. Really helpful!! |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/16/23 at 12:43:40 Today's surgery is removal of the clutch cover and basic inspection. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/16/23 at 12:44:46 Broad Interior View with Clutch Cover Removed. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/16/23 at 12:47:43 Cam Chain Tensioner at 18mm extended. Time for a Verslavy CCT 2.0 installed at Hole #2. Confirmation of Hole #2 requested. Hole #1 would be a waste of time and effort, and risky. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/16/23 at 12:50:10 Cam Chain Tensioner looking like it ate a banana and getting ready to launch a missile. It does not look trustworthy for more than another 3-4K miles with some luck. Yeah/Nay? |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/16/23 at 12:55:24 What is this oily thingy in the side of the clutch cover. It appears to have some decayed RTV around the edge. What should I think about this and the RTV? Or is that some kind of gasket/o-ring I need to replace? |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/16/23 at 12:59:56 Pushrod appears to be the 45.5mm length. I captured 45.4mm in the photo because it was slipping off the very tip as I was trying to hold it and take a picture. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/16/23 at 13:02:18 Clutch Release Cam with a Sneeze release cam next to it for eyeballing comparison purposes. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/16/23 at 14:18:33 Photo of a couple big pieces of the clutch cover gasket. It did not come out cleanly and neatly in one piece. It seems to be made of plastic or neoprene. It was pretty brittle, seemed "toasty", and I had to gently scrape a few areas where I believe it was tacked into place with RTV. Specifically around the bolts at the bottom of the cover and around the guide dowels. My understanding is that the gasket This seems like a hybrid approach of putting a dab in the areas around the bottom cover bolts and guide dowels. I'll ask about this again later when it's time to install the gasket and cover. I've been known to use a thin butter smooth smear of grease on gaskets to lightly tack it in place. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/16/23 at 14:23:50 Probably a meaningless measurement, but the entire clutch fiber and plate stack is 26.9mm when everything is still buttoned up and packed together. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/16/23 at 14:40:17 Close up. How lazy or newbie scared am I if I don't want to completely take apart the clutch and clean and measure all the friction discs? They are likely glazed from gas getting in the crankcase. My previous Savage had short-term clutch slippage after gas got in the crankcase. It resolved itself with a few rides and some fresh Rotella T4 got to working around in there. I just want to remove the release plate and swap in the Barnett clutch springs. :o ::) |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by verslagen1 on 12/16/23 at 17:42:29 5A667B637E6B7C5E6F7B620E0 wrote:
Oil level window and viewing plate. Mine was looking just as sketchy so I pulled it out and redid it. no gasket or o-ring, just rtv. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by verslagen1 on 12/16/23 at 17:46:29 477B667E6376614372667F130 wrote:
2nd hole acceptable. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by Dave on 12/16/23 at 17:48:44 485B4C4D525F595B500F3E0 wrote:
Oil level window and viewing plate. Mine was looking just as sketchy so I pulled it out and redid it. no gasket or o-ring, just rtv.[/quote] Yep...same for my bike when it only had 1,200 miles on it. I removed the loose white sealant, cleaned the area to remove the oil, then applied Suzukibond RTV. I would use Simple Green or Purple Power or a similar degreaser to clean the oi window and remove the oil prior to applying the RTV. I would not spray the area with Brake Clean or acetone - I don't know if the window is glass or plastic.....acetone could damage plastic. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by Surviving Philly on 12/16/23 at 17:53:23 Personally, I would put a barnette clutch pack in there since you're already in -- the clutch is a wear item, and I feel justified in replacing it instead of rehabbing the old plates but I know that may be an unpopular opinion. The clutch really isn't as intimidating as it seems -- I've been in there a fair amount of times over the last year due to a pretty strange issue with the hub and face plate being worn. In any event -- if you do decide to just do the springs, everything can stay in, you don't even need to remove the clutch nut (although you may want to check the torque just because you'll be looking at it.) You just pull the 4 bolts on the pressure plate and pop the new springs in -- just be careful with those bolts, they take less than 10 ft lbs off the top of my head and I have snapped one in the past being foolish. If you do decide to do the clutch, be very mindful of that dowel pin behind the basket that drives the oil pump gear. A recent YouTuber actually made a video about this that explains it: https://youtu.be/ZRYXRQUP9pg?si=XiGkqPBkKQhxhtcC |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/16/23 at 19:33:24 Thanks guys. Dave, I was goofing when I said oily thing! It is sketchy with the rtv looking like a broken rubber band. Does it push in from the outside or vise versa? Looks like it needs a refresher, but hey it ain’t leakin’! SurvivingPhilly - you make a good point about just replacing friction discs and plates instead of cleaning. I’ll think about it. You’re making me think I should do something and not just be lazy and scared. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by verslagen1 on 12/16/23 at 20:44:55 4C706D75687D6A48796D74180 wrote:
if it aint broke, don't fix it. push on it from the outside, if it don't move, it might not leak. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/17/23 at 00:09:49 Greetings Paul. Thanks for the update and the cool pics. Progress. I want to start by saying that IMO you do not have your engine at TDC. Your pictures in replies 24 thru 26 show the reference mark for the cam drive sprocket at the 1 o’clock position. When the crank is positioned at TDC, the drive sprocket reference should be at the bottom (6 o’clock position). As I recall, you have never had this bike running. If your timing marks on the alternator rotor indicate TDC, but the cam drive sprocket reference indicates close to BDC, something is wrong. Either you have made a mistake identifying the timing marks on the alternator rotor, or possibly the drive key for the alternator rotor is missing or sheared. If the drive key is sheared, it would explain why your engine didn’t run. Can you double check your timing marks. Take a picture so we can see what you have. Illuminate the area with a flashlight and snap a pic. See how the dimple for the cam drive sprocket reference is at 6 o’clock when the crank is at the TDC position. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/17/23 at 00:10:34 There are several openings in the bottom of your primary case. You want to put some cleanliness barriers over those openings, so you don’t drop anything into the crankcase. Don’t be a babooz like me and forget to take the paper towels back out when you are finished. Sometimes I get a bit loopy |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/17/23 at 00:11:26 Regarding your clutch cover gasket, you obviously need a new one. I suggest you buy the OEM gasket. It is a steel gasket with some sort of polymer coating. It’s a great gasket, and it can be used over & over. It’s well worth the OEM price tag. Never mind all that gooing things up with gasket dressing. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/17/23 at 00:12:18 This is a picture of the OEM gasket suspended by a magnet. That’s how I know it’s steel. I have no idea what the black coating is, but it holds up very well. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/17/23 at 00:12:53 The sealing surface for your oil filter cover O-ring looks like it might be pitted. I suggest you clean up that surface with a mild abrasive (like a green Skotchbrite pad) and inspect it for pits. You also want to do the same for the o-ring groove in the cover. Any serious defects can probably be repaired with epoxy. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/17/23 at 00:13:25 You might as well remove the cotter pin (red arrow) in the release arm shaft and pull the release arm out of the clutch cover. Pay close attention to how the return spring (yellow arrow) is oriented. Take a bunch of pictures so you will know how it goes when you reinstall the shaft. Note that there is a thrust shim (green arrow) below the release cam. Don’t lose it. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/17/23 at 00:15:17 Once you get the release arm out of the clutch cover, inspect the flats for the release cam. They will probably be a bit worn. See how the release cam wears the flats on the shaft. If the wear is worse than this, you might wanna think about a new shaft. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/17/23 at 00:16:06 Check the fit on the new Sneezy release cam. Slip it onto the shaft. If it won’t go on the shaft, you might have to dress it up lightly with a jeweler’s file. Remember, you want a tight fit. Don’t get carried away with the jeweler’s file. If it’s loose on the shaft, it can be shimmed a bit to tighten it up. Let us know how it fits. If it needs a shim, we can provide the details. Once you are satisfied that the new release cam fits, you can reassemble the shaft into the cover. You will want to replace the o-ring. I suggest you stay away from generic o-rings unless you can get your hands on a metric item. I’m sure you can probably find a SAE o-ring that will fit, but the cross section won’t be correct, and it will either leak or bind. The o-ring is 1.9mm cross section x 6.8mm ID. I suspect you will find installation of the release shaft quite a juggling act. You must feed it through the cover, return spring, release cam, thrust shim, and lower bearing. It might drive you nuts, but you will eventually get it installed. Don’t forget a new cotter pin, and make sure the cotter pin doesn’t snag anything when you cycle the release arm. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/17/23 at 00:16:57 You can remove your clutch pack all assembled by using some large washer with a couple of the springs. Remove the release bearing assembly and set it aside. I suggest you install a new o-ring on the push piece. That o-ring is critical for proper oil pressure to the transmission and clutch. Sorry, I don’t know the dimensions. You should get the OEM part so that it seals correctly. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/17/23 at 00:17:51 Once you have removed the release bearing assembly, reinstall the bolts with large washers, like this. I would put all four springs in there along with the temporary washers. That will lock up the clutch and make it easier to break loose the large nut that secures the clutch hub to the input shaft. Once you have the clutch locked up, you can bend over the lock plate behind the nut and break loose the nut. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/17/23 at 00:18:57 To break loose the clutch hub nut, you can keep the shafts from turning by placing the transmission in 5th gear and holding the rear brake (the cable adjuster at the rear wheel works good for that). If the nut is stubborn, you can place soft rolled copper tubing in the primary gear mesh. It MUST BE SOFT ROLLED so you don’t damage the gear teeth. The clutch hub nut is right-hand threads so counterclockwise to loosen. You need to be careful with this nut, its very thin and the male threads on the input shaft are notched by the splines. There is almost no thread engagement. This piece of soft rolled copper tubing has been used to lock up the primary gears. It works good and doesn’t hurt the gears. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/17/23 at 00:19:53 Once the hub nut has been removed, you can pull the entire disk pack straight out. You could also remove the entire clutch assembly if you want, but I prefer to remove the disk pack first, and then the basket. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/17/23 at 00:21:02 Once the disc pack (hub, pressure disk, fibers, steels, and wave washer assembly) has been removed, you can pull the clutch basket, spacer, oil pump drive gear, and thrust washers. Just as SurvivingPhilly mentioned in reply #36, you must be extremely careful with the oil pump drive gear. Watch the Video he included. It’s a must see. That video does a great job of explaining how easy it is to lose the drive pin, and it also covers how easy it is to install the gear backwards. One thing it doesn’t cover is that if you install the gear backwards the drive pin is no longer captured, and it can fall out. So, be careful when you pull the clutch basket. Get your hand behind it and hold the gear in place as you pull the basket off the shaft. And when you put it back together, make sure the pin is in place, the gear is oriented correctly so the pin is captured, and you hold the gear in place as you slip the basket over the shaft. The gear must be oriented like this to capture the drive pin. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/17/23 at 00:23:17 Given the appearance (very dry) of your clutch pack, I think you should disassemble it and measure all the fibers and steels. Would also be a good idea to inspect the running surfaces on the pressure disk and hub. Post the measurements and some pictures. I plead ignorance on your oil level bullseye. I have no idea how it’s installed. Hey Dave & Versy, is that thing pressed in and then sealed with silicone, or is that white stuff some sort of epoxy? I imagine it could result in a terrible accident if it fell out. Which direction is it installed, from the outside in, or from the inside out? Looking forward to your next post. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by Dave on 12/17/23 at 02:00:28 4D4B44383A3D39090 wrote:
The oil window is pressed into the case from the inside. It is mounted in a rubber bushing that is a snug fit.....it likely is oil tight without the RTV that is applied to the inside. I have pressed several of them out for applying the Cerakote and baking the finish - they press back in pretty easily with a bit of RTV acting as a bit of a lube while installing it. I then apply a bead of Suzukibond RTV as it was from the factory. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/17/23 at 06:20:15 Thanks Mike, Dave, Verslagen, and SurvivingPhilly! Mike, I didn’t set it at TDC for yesterday. My main goal was to get the cover off and inspect the CCT and decide if I needed to buy a Verslavy CCT. I got that accomplished and emailing with Verslagen about it. Note: Getting the piece of dowel rod stuck in the cylinder may have been a blessing in disguise. It forced me to pull the clutch cover and inspect the CCT and find it at 18mm. Q: What is the best tool to remove the c-clip on the CCT? Pick, screw driver, needle nose plyers? I don’t have anything fancier than that for this kind of thing. I can just see the thing flying across the garage never to be found or down into the motor. Mike, you mentioned a couple o-rings that I didn’t think about and buy when I bought all the other parts. I need to make another list of needed parts. Thanks for the clean up tip on the oil filter housing. I didn’t notice that but the o-ring does look pretty tired and sketchy.. I’m with Verslagen about not popping out the oil check window. I’ll clean it up with some isopropyl alcohol and q-tip (trying not to fog the glass with solvents), and apply some fresh Suzukibond around the perimeter. Today’s to-do list is short. Prove I can find TDC (without Woody) and then fumble around with the clutch release arm, and if ok, install the Sneeze cam release. I need to check that o-ring and rod for wear and see if I need a new part. Can’t be too expensive. I did buy a Suzuki OEM cover gasket. I saw some cheap ones online, but coughed up the $$ for an OEM. I’m still intimidated by the clutch pack assembly. I need to think about all that more. As noted in Oldfeller’s posts, nobody has worn out the fiber discs and plates. My main concern is glazing and warping. They are pretty dry as they got bathed in an oil/gas mixture due to carb flooding. Beautiful day for a ride in Houston today. I think I need some fresh air! Thanks again, Guys!! |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/17/23 at 07:50:02 If the bike is in neutral, should I be able to rotate the clutch hub/pack freely? I think I'm in neutral, but it won't rotate at all. I don't want to start searching for TDC and turning the motor if it's somehow stuck in gear or something else is going on. Bike is up on the stand, wheels still touching the ground. I bumped the gear shifter up and down with my hand, but it's all kinda wonky since I removed the right front foot peg, brake assembly, heat shield. Is the bike not in neutral? This seems to kinda correlate with me finding the bike difficult to roll around in the garage when I think I'm in neutral. When I've turned the motor by hand looking for TDC in the past few weeks, I've been able to do it without the bike trying to move or acting like it's in gear. What's going on? Why am I seemingly stuck? I don't want to try turning the motor and looking for TDC until I get some confirmation or clarify about if I should be able to rotate the clutch freely. Feeling confused, ignorant, and defeated... |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by Dave on 12/17/23 at 08:11:42 1A263B233E2B3C1E2F3B224E0 wrote:
Those 4 springs are holding the clutch plates together and prevent them from mowing/slipping/sliding/turning........the only way the clutch can be released is by pushing that clutch rod against the springs and spreading the plates apart. Being in neutral has no affect on the clutch - they are not connected in any way. Neutral disconnects the input and output shaft of the transmission so that the shafts can turn independently of each other. It should not be hard for you to find neutral.....does the little green light work when the key is turned on? |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/17/23 at 09:06:05 Thanks Dave! That's somewhat of a relief. I have the battery removed and sitting on the tender on the bench. The Green Neutral light would be too easy!! Time to reconnect the battery! That never dawned on me! Duh! I obviously want to make sure I'm in neutral before I do something stupid like throw the bike off the stand while turning the motor by hand to find TDC. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/17/23 at 09:23:44 Stock clutch release arm assembly before pics. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/17/23 at 09:24:50 Partial disassembly. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/17/23 at 09:26:07 Flat of Shaft looks good to me. But what do you think? |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/17/23 at 09:28:31 Bad photo of the o-ring. It seemed ok and doesn't need replacement. But you tell me! Do it anyway!? The Clymer manual illustration is terrible trying to show where this o-ring goes! It's obvious once you pluck it out. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/17/23 at 09:31:12 Sneeze Release Cam installed. I was able to remove the stock release cam fairly easily with my fingers. The Sneeze went on there about the way the old one came off. It went in rather smoothly with my fingers. I wouldn’t say it’s really tight and I wouldn’t say it is really loose either. Seemed about right to me, but this is my first rodeo and I have nothing to compare it to. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/17/23 at 09:34:07 Release Arm Raised. Cotter pin stops against the inside of cover on the closed end of the cotter pin. Seems okay and the only way. Release cam pivots. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/17/23 at 09:36:03 Photo of the positioning of the cotter pin before I replaced the Release Cam with a Sneeze. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/17/23 at 09:41:52 Spring in position under the Sneeze Release Cam. This seems a bit sketchy. The end of the spring is only tucked under the release cam by maybe 1/4" (seems like 1/8th or 3/16th). My brain thinks it should extend all the way across the underside of the release cam, but that can't be right either....it's not that long. Does this seem right? Do I need a new spring? Do they make a spring with more engagement under the release cam? Am I overthinking it? Comments please! |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/17/23 at 09:42:59 Trying to get a better photo of the spring, but the lighting is bad. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/17/23 at 10:18:36 Neutral! Yay! The peace of mind is well worth the 5 minutes needed to reconnect the battery and set the gas tank back up there for connection. I was in neutral already! No fumbling around with the gear shifter needed. Ok, now I can find TDC and quit wrenching for the day. Time for some football and a ride! |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/17/23 at 10:58:22 TDC. The photo angle makes it look like I need to turn about 1/16th inch more. In person, it's lined up. I have a paint mark right on my index mark which is nice. Verified that intake and exhaust rocker arms wiggle a little bit. I can't get a photo of the exhaust cam lobe with with hole (frame and decomp connector thingy in the way and too dark). Mike, you mentioned loosening the nuts and valve adjusters a "few turns". Is that 3 turns? I've got a nice valve lash right now, and I know it will have to be re-done to the same precision when this all gets wrapped up and put back together again. If I'm still considering installing the Web-Cam 466, do I want to back off the adjusters any differently (more)? |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/17/23 at 11:01:56 Are these the correct copper crush washers for all 4 head studs? This was confusing when ordering parts. Do all 4 studs get the same size washer? |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by verslagen1 on 12/17/23 at 11:28:06 1529342C3124331120342D410 wrote:
yes, yes. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/17/23 at 11:48:22 Thanks Verslagen. I sent you an email about getting a Verslavy CCT in case you didn't see it. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by Surviving Philly on 12/17/23 at 12:13:29 Thumper just a heads up regarding TDC and the came lobe hole -- it's the exhaust cam lobe but you are looking for the hole on that lobe from the intake valve window not the exhaust valve window. The way you worded it made it sound like you are looking in from the exhaust side (you mentioned the solenoid being in the way) but you should be looking at the other side based on what DBM posted unless I'm incorrect here. If you check his pictures you can see that the cam chain is on the right, if he was looking at the exhaust side it would be on the left. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/17/23 at 13:26:10 I was looking thru the intake valve side from the rear of the bike. I can't get my eyes in the right place (or phone) or even with a flashlight. I forgot to stick my endoscope camera in there for a photo (forgot I bought it). I'll have to reread my post and Mike's. Thanks for the reply. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/17/23 at 18:43:20 Dave, thanks for the info on the bullseye. I never gave that item much thought. I think I might need to keep an eye on that. Safety first. Paul, you said your shifter was wonky because the heat shield was removed. “I bumped the gear shifter up and down with my hand, but it's all kinda wonky since I removed the right front foot peg, brake assembly, heat shield.” Removing the right foot peg, brake assembly and heat shield shouldn’t affect your shifter unless you are missing an important bolt. The left footpeg and shifter assembly are secured to the frame by three bolts. Two of those bolts are engine mount bolts and they go all the way through both foot peg assemblies, the frame, and the engine. The third bolt is much shorter, and it only goes through the left side of the frame. I believe it is there to keep the footpeg assembly and side stand secure even when the engine mount bolts have been removed. It’s hard to see since it comes from the inside of the left frame tube, and it is well hidden. You need to make sure that the bolt is in place and tight. It’s a safety issue. If that bolt isn’t installed and you loosen up the engine mounts, the motorcycle can fall over. This is the bolt in question. The yellow arrow identifies the bolt. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/17/23 at 18:44:22 “Q: What is the best tool to remove the c-clip on the CCT?” Snap ring pliers. Make sure those paper towels are in place before you try to remove the clip. You don’t want that little spring steel clip falling into your crankcase. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/17/23 at 18:45:50 Now that you have managed to figure out where neutral is, get that battery disconnected. Don’t be working in that primary case with the battery connected. These rascals have a nasty habit of automatically energizing the starter motor (some anomaly with the decompression relay). Always best to disconnect the battery when working on the engine. Nice job on the clutch release cam. No big deal on the o-ring. By now you have probably figured out that removing the clutch cover is an easy job. If that particular o-ring leaks, it is merely a housekeeping issue. It will be a very small leak and won’t degrade oil pressure to anything. Up to you if you change it or not. Regarding the clutch push piece o-ring, you should probably change that one. It affects oil pressure to the trans & clutch. The play in the fitup between the release cam and the release shaft is something you have to evaluate on your own. One way to get a better feel for how much play is in there is to push down on the release cam such that it is hard against its stop in the clutch cover, then gently twist the release shaft back & forth while you hold the release cam against the stop. Any lost motion will be evident. The yellow arrow points to the stop. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/17/23 at 18:47:24 You are correct about the release cam return spring, it doesn’t fit the Sneezy cam as well as it does the stocker. Mine has hung in there. If anyone else has observations regarding the return spring fitup, please chime in. Now would be the time to evaluate your clutch pushrod. Assuming you don’t end up changing plates, you should be able check for proper pushrod length. If you need a longer or shorter pushrod you can order it now. Personally, I just bought all three of the lengths so I would have them on hand. I suggest you clean off any of the old gasket material and install your clutch cover with the new gasket. Snug up all the fasteners and then check to see where your release arm lines up with the marks on the engine case. Just place a 12” crescent wrench on the release arm and lightly exercise the arm a few times to seat the rod in the ball socket on the release cam. Don’t push it hard, and don’t exceed about ½” movement of the cable end of the release arm. Then let the wrench hang, don’t push on the wrench, let it hang. The weight of the wrench should take up all the slack in the release mechanism. With all the slack out, check where the arm lines up with the marks on the case. You want the arm centered between the two marks, like this. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/17/23 at 18:50:28 If the release arm is situated too low, you need a shorter pushrod. If the arm is situated too high, you need a longer pushrod, or you have too much play in the fit between the release cam and the release shaft. If there is too much play between the shaft and the cam, shimming may be required. Let us know what you figure out. Once you know the as-found condition, you can remove the clutch cover and disassemble the clutch. Inspect all the plates, measure their thickness, and clean them in new Rotella. Just use an old toothbrush and clean Rotella in a shallow pan. Scrub it all up and measure all the plates. I bet they are all just fine. Take some pics so we can see. Put it all back together and reinstall the clutch pack. It will be good practice and only takes a few minutes. Then reinstall the clutch cover and gasket and confirm your pushrod situation. Some tips on the clutch assembly: Take a mill smooth file and dress down all the sharp edges on the clutch hub nut. Those sharp edges dig into the soft lock-tab washer and mess up your torque when you tighten the nut. Be very careful with the torque on that nut. Never use a rattle wrench on it, and don’t exceed 50 ft-lbs. See how all the edges on this nut have been rounded off so that they are not sharp. Just break the edge with a file. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/17/23 at 18:51:20 The wave washer assembly is nested within the outermost fiber plate. Like this. This picture shows me holding the flat wave washer seat. It bears against the aluminum clutch hub (not shown). The conical wave washer bears against the first steel plate. Don’t mix that up. Seat touches aluminum, wave washer touches steel. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/17/23 at 18:52:03 This sketch shows the orientation. Note that the sketch doesn’t show the fiber plate. That outer fiber plate is different from the other five plates. It’s a bit thicker, and the hole in the center is larger to accommodate the wave washer assembly. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/17/23 at 18:52:50 Once you figure out what you need to get the clutch and clutch release mechanism squared away, take the entire clutch out and set it all aside. As mentioned before, be very careful with the oil pump drive gear and drive pin. Don’t lose the pin, don’t install the gear backwards. Once the clutch is out of the way, you should have enough clearance to get the rear cam chain guide out the bottom. That comes later, after you have removed the head cover. You asked about backing off on the valve adjusters. The suggestion was only meant to give you a little extra wiggle room. It certainly wouldn’t hurt. I have the same comment as SurvivingPhilly, the way you have worded your post leads me to believe you are looking into the wrong valve cover. Revised 12/27/23. DBM |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/18/23 at 10:02:54 Thanks Mike! Battery was promptly disconnected and returned to the bench. Yup, I'm missing the important bolt that holds the side stand to the frame when the cap nuts on the long motor mount bolts running thru the case are loosed to remove the right foot peg, brake assembly and heat shield (causing my shifter and entire assembly to feel wonky). I knew something wasn't right because this didn't happen on my last S40 when I removed those 2 cap nuts. I almost dropped the bike on its left side when I was getting the bike on the stand. Thanks for this catch! I was able to get the bolt added to the parts order I placed yesterday. I bought a cheap snap ring plyer set. Now I need to figure out how to use it. It has 2-straights, 1- 45, and 1- 90 degree. Sorry for my confusing comment about the oil hole in the exhaust lobe. Attached are a few endoscope photos of what I believe is TDC on the compression stroke. Both sets of valves are closed, rocker arms wiggle, and I can see the oil hole in the exhaust cam lobe (photo attached). |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/18/23 at 10:04:22 View of intake valves in closed position thru the intake port. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/18/23 at 10:05:20 Exhaust Valves Closed. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/18/23 at 10:06:35 Other exhaust valve (poor photo). |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/18/23 at 10:43:23 I bagged off the clutch pack and gear area in the event I might drop the little C-clip. Put an old kitchen cup towel in the bottom to catch little parts and keep the area free of debris. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/18/23 at 10:51:02 Snap Ring Plyers are just small enough to fit on the clip (the other 3 options in the snap ring kit are bigger). I think I got this figured out. I'll have a magnetic parts grabber propped in there to try to hang on to it and catch. Dang little important parts!!! It blows my mind how many tiny little parts are needed to make a motorcycle function and perform. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/18/23 at 10:59:15 11171864666165550 wrote:
When I checked this before surgery, it rested (tilted slightly) towards the top of the range markings but still within the range. My push rod is the 45.5mm length. I'm inclined to leave this as is and just roll with the 45.5. I see no visible difference in the stock vs Sneeze cam release that would suggest a different length push rod is needed. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/18/23 at 11:19:27 Replies 78-81 regarding the clutch intimidate me. File and dress down the clutch hub nut, wave washer that looks like it go in cockeyed (this illustration also confused me reading in Clymer), and more.... I'm inclined to save all this clutch work for a future project and move on to my main objective of getting the wood out of the cylinder. I think you said in your post that the head can be removed without removing the rear cam chain guide (it's just clumsy and awkward). I noted that you did recommend removing it...but can't I just be clumsy and awkward and work around it? :-/ |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/18/23 at 12:30:46 A series of photos of the cam chain tensioner. Is this a stock tensioner or some version of a Verslavy? With the CCT removed and easier to measure, it appears closer to 17mm extended instead of 18mm as originally reported. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/18/23 at 12:31:37 Backside of CCT. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/18/23 at 12:32:31 Bottomside of CCT. Is this maxed out. Riding a bit cockeyed...??? |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/18/23 at 12:35:04 CCT 17mm measured at underside. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/18/23 at 12:37:37 Another measure from the top side of the CCT at 17.1mm. I think it's stock, but finding good detailed photos of a stock CCT are eluding me. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/18/23 at 13:05:58 The c-clip all packaged up and bagged up now with the CCT. Taped to a piece of cardboard in hopes I don't lose it or accidentally throw it away. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/18/23 at 14:43:32 It occurred to me that maybe I should have given you a little more detail regarding the clutch and the oil pump drive. Don’t be intimidated by the clutch. Yes, you could get the head off with the rear guide still in place, but it’s difficult with the engine in the frame. You have come this far, you might as well finish up. You will learn a lot. Make it easy on yourself; leave the “clumsy and awkward” to the more seasoned wrench turners. Your endoscope is killer good. The pics are very clear. You happen to have the manufacturer and model number for that item? Will it work with an iPad or is it strictly for an Android? Great shot of the cam lobe, and your ports are super-clean. You stated: “I see no visible difference in the stock vs Sneeze cam release that would suggest a different length push rod is needed.” The slightest variation in that release cam has a significant effect on pushrod length. The play in the fit, the radius, depth and surface finish of the ball socket, the angle of the fit vs lever, all can affect pushrod length. Check it now. It’s like a ten-minute job. If you need a longer or shorter rod better to know now so you can get it ordered. After you get the clutch apart, you will know if you need to replace any parts. If you need a different pushrod and you can get it ordered…..or…..you can do what I did and just order the other two sizes so you have all three on hand. Did you try to check the play in the release cam by holding it against the stop in the clutch cover? Is it reasonably tight or is there a lot of lost motion? Your CCT is a stock tensioner, it’s jammed, and I think you should replace it with the gold standard Verslagen unit. The rear guide has probably straightened out, but the Verslagy tensioner will take care of that. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/18/23 at 14:44:59 Let’s start with the pump drive. By now you should have already watched SurvivingPhilly’s video, so I suspect you have a pretty good idea about the drive pin problem. Since a screw up on this drive gear can wreck your motor, I figure I should give you a better idea of what can go wrong if you install the gear backwards. When the oil pump drive gear is on correctly, it captures the drive pin. You can see from this picture that the pin can’t fall out. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/18/23 at 14:45:40 But if the gear is installed backwards, you can still get things back together. However, the drive pin is not captured. It’s gonna fall out and the drive gear will not turn with the clutch. To make things even worse, the gear teeth will be rubbing on the engine case. That would be very bad. See how the pin is not captured when the gear is installed backwards. Pay attention to how the gear goes on the clutch basket. Don’t install it like this. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/18/23 at 14:46:48 I measured this eBay clutch pack before I took it apart. You can use it as a reference to compare your measurement. This clutch pack is 1.015”. If all the plates are in spec, then 1.015” should be a good reference point. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/18/23 at 14:47:57 When you are working on the clutch, the temporary washers along with the springs allow you to remove the clutch pack all in one piece. See how you have access to the clutch hub nut. Once you remove that nut, the whole disk pack can be removed. Also note how the outermost fiber disk is out-of-position. Don’t be alarmed if that outermost fiber moves around, the wave washer assembly will keep the outermost fiber free until all four springs apply sufficient force to collapse the wave washer. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/18/23 at 14:48:43 Once you have the disk pack out of the clutch basket, you can remove the bolts, temporary washers, and springs. Then hold the disk pack together with your fingers and turn it over. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/18/23 at 14:49:45 Lay it on the work bench like this. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/18/23 at 14:50:28 Then remove the pressure disk. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/18/23 at 14:51:45 The first fiber plate was .116”, right on the factory spec. The remaining standard fiber plates were also .116”, and the special fiber plate (outermost) was .136” (the outer plate is thicker and has a larger ID to accommodate the wave washer). All the fibers were right on the factory spec for new plates. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/18/23 at 14:52:37 The first steel was black, but it was not burnt or blued and it was also right on the spec. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/18/23 at 14:53:20 The first steel was right on .060”. The other four steels were also .060”. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/18/23 at 14:54:28 So, with all the clutch plates (fiber & steel) right at the factory spec for new plates, looks like the 1.015” reference dimension I took across the clutch pack tangs is a decent reference. Your 26.9mm (1.059”) measurement indicates that your clutch plates are not worn. All you should have to worry about are the aluminum running surfaces on the pressure disk and clutch hub. When you get to the last fiber plate, you will see the wave washer assembly nested in the center of the plate. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/18/23 at 14:55:11 The conical wave washer looks like this. It’s a Bellville washer (conical), which is a type of spring. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/18/23 at 14:55:48 Between the wave washer and the clutch hub aluminum running surface is the wave washer seat. It’s just a very large flat washer. It prevents the wave washer from digging into the soft aluminum face on the hub flange. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/18/23 at 14:56:22 This is how the wave washer assembly should look on the clutch hub. Not too complicated. Put it in like this and you will be OK. Compare this picture to the sketch, it should clear things up. The special fiber plate, the one that is thicker and has a larger hole is situated around this wave washer assembly. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/18/23 at 14:57:16 From this point, the clutch basket just pulls off the transmission input shaft. There are two thrust washers and a spacer associated with the clutch basket. The smaller washer goes between the clutch hub and the basket. That would be the washer shown here. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/18/23 at 14:58:13 The larger washer and spacer go on the input shaft like this. The washer bears on the inner race of the transmission bearing. The clutch basket just slips over the spacer. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/18/23 at 14:59:11 Don’t get those thrust washers mixed up. If you have something that looks like this, you installed the large washer in the wrong place. The large washer goes against the input shaft bearing, and the small washer goes between the clutch basket and the clutch hub. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/18/23 at 15:00:22 When you go to remove the clutch basket, slip your fingers behind the basket and snag the oil pump drive gear so that you can remove the basket and gear all assembled. That way you won’t drop the drive pin. Once the clutch basket is off you are all ready to pull the rear chain guide out the bottom. That will come after you get the head cover off. Take your clutch apart. Check everything out. Clean it, measure the plates, visually inspect the friction material. Double check your pushrod length by putting it all together again. It only takes an hour or two and you will get more comfortable with the procedure. Take more pics and post them. BTW, nice job on the CCT circlip. You got it off and it looks great. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/18/23 at 19:38:31 Thank you, Mike! I’m going to take a day or two and try to digest all this! I also need to expand my parts vocabulary so I can spare you some of my ignorant questions! The photos are worth a thousand words right now!! I want to do this clutch reconditioning, but I’ve got to get better grounded and study some more. Thanks again, my friend! |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by Dave on 12/19/23 at 03:33:57 If it was my clutch (and I had DragBikeMike's photos)....I would take the cutch plates out and scrub them with something like Simple Green and them rinse and dry them. Then I would take a flat surface and a sheet of 400 sandpaper and remove the shiny surface on the fiber discs....just enough to remove the glaze. Then wash the fibers plates in dish washing liquid and dry. Then oil up the fiber discs so they have a wet surface and assemble the clutch. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/19/23 at 05:36:32 Thanks Dave. I really have to say again that the clutch intimidates the hell out of me even with all Mike’s excellent photos and details. I need to study and psych myself up for this! I like your cleaning method. Oldfeller’s method of soaking them in gasoline in grandma’s sealed casserole dish, buff sand, then wash in the kitchen sink with soapy water, dry off with wife’s cup towel, and then put on the clothes line to dry in the sun for 3 days - gave me a chuckle (I paraphrased his method a bit, but directionally accurate). Clymer suggests kerosene. I just want to pour a few ounces of fresh Rotella on the whole thing while still in the motor. Do it a few times and catch the mess below as I go. Good enough! I’m anxious to get Woody out of there and fire up! Revisit the clutch later if I have to. I know this is half-arse, and I should do this right while I’m in there! Especially with all the help I’m being afforded!!! Thanks! Maybe I can get better focused after Christmas. I’ve had Covid 3 times and suffer from “long hauler” effects (brain fog, memory problems, overall cognitive decline, premature old man brain). Zombie brain. Some days are better than others. Unfortunately, today’s not one of those days. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by Gary_in_NJ on 12/19/23 at 08:22:30 Paul, you may be a victim over overexplanation with the clutch. As Dave suggests, simply remove the friction discs and plates one by one and clean as you go. Note the order and reassemble in the same order. The friction plates are wear items, so if they are less than 60% of spec, replace them. If they still have good life in them you can attempt to resurface them...but I would suggest replacing them especially if the steel plates are showing any signs over over heating - at which point you need a new clutch kit. If the steel plates do not show signs over overheating you can attempt to resurface them...but you run the risk of causing more problems. Like I said...it's a wear item. When you have the plates out, inspect the basket for grooves. Small groves can be filed smooth, big gouges require a new basket. This is a simple disassemble-clean-inspect-reassemble process with the potential of replace before reassemble if something fails inspection. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/19/23 at 10:13:33 Thanks Gary in NJ! I lived in Scotch Plains as a young kid growing up, like 55-60 years ago! My dad's first real job out of college was in Newark. And, you're right about me being a victim of over-explanation - but that's a good thing and I greatly appreciate Mike walking me through it!! Cylmer supplements my intimidation as well. It forces me to summon up my inner OCD! If I decide to forgo scrubbing friction discs and plates (or need to replace due to wear/heat), is there an affordable good quality brand someone can recommend? There are lots of no-name cheap option on E.bay, but I'm skeptical about quality. I'm not impressed by EBC brake pads, so I'm hesitant to consider them for a clutch kit. I've already purchased the beefier Barnett clutch springs (about the same price as stock), but Barnett is very proud of their other clutch components and I'm not building a 50hp hot rod! Yet... What size is the clutch locknut when I get to that step? I'm assuming I would use a socket on it? (Put the bike in 5th gear, lock up the rear brake with the adjuster.) Is the nut 'loctited' on? Does anybody want to give me an excuse to buy myself an air impact driver for Christmas? |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/19/23 at 16:01:57 "is there an affordable good quality brand someone can recommend?" Genuine Suzuki clutch plates work great. The Barnett plates seem to work good too. That being said, why would you want to install new plates when you haven't even tried the plates you currently have installed? "What size is the clutch locknut when I get to that step?" A 32mm socket fits perfectly. "Is the nut 'loctited' on?" No, the nut is secured with a lock-tab washer. That is why I suggest that you break all the sharp edges and corners on the nut with a mill-smooth file. The lock washer is annealed, and the sharp edges tend to dig into the washer and throw off your torque measurement. "Does anybody want to give me an excuse to buy myself an air impact driver for Christmas?" The new lithium battery powered impact wrenches work great. Way more convenient than the old pneumatic guns. But, you should not be using an impact wrench (rattle wrench) on this clutch hub nut. There is almost no thread engagement. The nut is only 8mm thick, and the male threads on the shaft have splines running through them. It's very easy to damage the threads. Keep the rattle wrench away from this nut. The max torque is only 50 ft-lbs. Very easy to get loose, very easy to tighten. This is the lock tab washer. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/19/23 at 17:04:46 Thanks Mike! I’ll clean up my clutch discs/plates. Hopefully all good to go with nothing to replace. I do like my ryobi, but it’s not an impact. I need to get a 32mm socket. Largest I have is like a 27 or 28. Sorry I forgot to answer you about the endoscope camera. This is it. It plugs right into the battery port on an iPhone. You were supposed to send me your address and you would’ve had it by now!! It comes with a warning label not to put it in your body! So don’t get any weird ideas! https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B0C4FBM6GV?psc=1&ref=ppx_pop_mob_b_asin_title |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by Surviving Philly on 12/20/23 at 03:54:01 1-1/4 inch SAE works also but is slightly loose. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/20/23 at 05:13:10 It will be a 32mm for me on this metric cruiser! The only SAE tool that gets close to my metric bikes is a 1/4” and 3/8” ratchet, and occasionally a 1/2” on axle nuts. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by Surviving Philly on 12/20/23 at 07:21:01 Hey thumper I was able to pick up the cyclepedia manual on Amazon for free with my student prime membership. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07SQ2HMWS/ref=kinw_myk_ro_title?ref=d6k_applink_bb_dls&dplnkId=892986fc-9afe-4fbf-ba72-d53715d92661 It's digital only and the digital navigation isn't the best but the manual itself is I think an excellent companion to the clymer and walks through the clutch step by step along with other stuff. Wish I picked this up a while ago actually... |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/20/23 at 12:15:51 Hey Philly! Cool. Thanks! I had the paper version but I gave it away when I sold my last S40. Wish I kept it. This is more resources. Yay! |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/20/23 at 12:22:37 Mike, I was able to find a 32mm socket in 12 point. Hope that’s ok. Would have preferred 6 point. For the washers, I found some 3/8” and 5/16”. I guess I’ll figure out which fits or use both. How tight do I need to get those bolts with the washers holding down the springs temporarily and pack together? |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/20/23 at 13:31:04 The 12-point socket is fine. The max torque on the hub nut is only 50 ft-lbs. The 12-point will handle that with ease. The small 6mm bolts for the clutch springs only need to be tightened enough to hold the clutch pack together. As you turn the bolts clockwise, they will start to compress the springs, so the springs actually do the work. Sometimes I find it helpful to adjust the spring force on the low side so I can just move the fiber plates. That's helpful when you are trying to insert the clutch pack into the basket. You can make minor adjustments to align the tangs with the slots in the basket. Hey Philly, can that on-line manual be downloaded to a PC, or is it strictly for a Kindle? BTW, what's the best, Pat's or Gino's? |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/20/23 at 14:24:08 My vote is Pat’s between those two. I lived in Philly for about 15 months so my vote kinda counts! I will eat either one though! Plus a whole lot of other places in the burbs! |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/20/23 at 15:17:29 How do I bend back the lock tab washer? Screwdriver? I'm getting freaked out now. When I removed the 4 clutch nuts on the release plate assembly and the clutch pack relaxed, I got scared. Also, there were no washers on the bolts. Clymer mentions washers. Should there be washers? I'll look at a parts diagram. When I was loosening the nuts, the gears moved a little bit (like a 1/4") before I decided to hold the clutch pack and remove the nuts. Is that ok? The "oiler gear" on the bottom is NOT spinning freely (good). Its captured and grabbing its partner gear. The video from Philly was helpful with that tip. (that guy was fun to listen to). Honestly, I'm ready to stop where I am at and just put the Barnett springs in there and be done here! Bath it with some fresh Rotella. I just don't think I can get this done. Then use the clumsy way to work around the rear cam chain guide when I get to pulling the head. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by Surviving Philly on 12/20/23 at 16:49:35 Pats is a better sandwich, genos has better acutrmons, or used to before they stopped leaving the fixins out. The owner is obsessed with "criminals" stealing the free peppers. Whatever. These are just tourist traps though. The two best spots are Steve's prince of steaks in the north east or SQ Phil's in South west. Steve's for an honest, genuine philly steak with all the original toppings out for you to use, the real way -- or Phil's for a real.... Neighborhood experience. Milage may vary. The sauce is HOT by the way, like it was intended to be. A lot of false natives will say delassandro's. Don't bother, you can get the same exact steak at any corner store. If you're at delassandro's, immediately leave and go across the street to chubb's. It's not that chubb's is good, but at least you aren't embarrassing yourself at delassandro's. Anyway they both suck, don't believe the hype. Honorable mention to little known spot little Sicily II in South Philly off Columbus and tasker -- it's actually an Indian place but you wouldn't know based on the name. They sell a Indian spiced steak that is a real if you know thing. Also there was a Muslim jawn on broad near the divine Loraine that sold a lamb steak with taziki sauce, and that was dope. Can't remember the name, think it closed. Anyway, not to derail the thread but, you asked and you heard it here first this is the first last and second about philly steaks. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/20/23 at 17:18:24 Now I want a Philly Cheesesteak with Wiz! LOL. The closest thing we have to a good place in Houston is Charleys. When in Philly, I was actually in Blue Bell. There was a hole in the wall place, Pudges. It was close to my townhome and I ate there once a week at least! Really good. Hijacking this post to talk about Cheesesteaks is good with me! I actually appreciate the diversion! |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by Surviving Philly on 12/20/23 at 17:30:25 The washers are just put on so that tension is on the springs so you can bull the pack out of the basket as one full unit, instead of pulling just the pressure plate out and then each disk individually. The washers shouldn't be there on reassembly, they are just a "trick" to have a tidy approach to the replacement. If you didn't put the washers/springs on, when you go to pull the pack out of the basket it would all want to come out piece by piece, that's all. Once you get in there and are familiar with it you'll realize how much you're overthinking things. Promise. I used to ride through blue bell on route 73 all the time up to a farm I used to hang at. Usually avoid the interstate on my bike savage just can't keep up with soccer moms on 476 driving 85+ in 5 tom Subarus... |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/20/23 at 18:08:15 Jeeeez! Look what I started. Now I'm hungry. I love them greasy things. Give em to me simple; onions, bell peppers, cheese and plenty grease. The rolls make the sandwich. I went to Monsignor Bonner (66 grad). Spent a year goin to A&P school on Greys Ferry Ave. Plenty of good funky diners around there. Paul, thanks for the link to the endoscope. I bet it would work with an iPad. Philly is right about the washers. They are just a tool to help you disassemble and reassemble the clutch pack. I can see from your pictures that your washers are mighty big. I suspect they will interfere with your socket when you go to loosen the nut. You can fix that by simply filing a flat on each washer to provide clearance for the socket. Just remove the area shown in yellow. Do that for all four washers. Grab the washer in a vice and file away the material. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/20/23 at 18:11:56 "How do I bend back the lock tab washer? Screwdriver?" A screwdriver will work, but I prefer a small chisel because the tip is sharp and easier to get between the tab and the nut. I use a very small 4-ounce ballpeen, small 3/8" chisel, and small pin punch (flat tip). |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/20/23 at 18:15:33 I start to fold the tab back with the chisel. See how nice the tip fits between the tab and the nut. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/20/23 at 18:16:26 I get it started with the chisel. Fold it back about this far. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/20/23 at 18:18:24 Then finish up with the punch. The flat tip on the pin punch doesn't cut into the lock tab. I can usually use the lock tab over several times, but that's not a good practice. I suggest you get a new one. A wrinkled-up washer may throw your torque value off. Better to use a new washer that is nice and smooth. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/20/23 at 18:22:32 When you put it back together, you must fold the lock tab washer over a flat on the nut. Torque the nut first, then fold the lock tab washer over one of the flats on the nut. I find that a large Vicegrip Pliers works great for folding the washer over the flat on the nut. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/20/23 at 18:25:15 Thanks Youz Guys! Sorry, the washers I'm referring to aren't those big arse washers I put in there temporarily. I'm talking about when I removed the nuts from the assembly. There were no washers. Clymer says there are washers in there. I'll look it up on a parts diagram. If there are indeed supposed to be washers in there under the nut hex, somebody has been in this clutch before me and failed to put them back in. Yeah, I bought 2 different sized big arse washers. One pair is good fit; the other pair is not. I'll get that straightened out. You're right - the socket can't get in there with those big arse washers. Can I just pry with screwdriver to straighten out that tab on the locking washer under the hub nut? I could probably straighten it with a wood chisel too. I just don't want to scar or tear something up. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/20/23 at 18:31:30 The earliest models had washers on the bolts, but later models came with flange bolts. You have flange bolts, no washer required. "I just don't want to scar or tear something up." That's why I suggested using the chisel only to start the bend, then finish up with the flat-tip pin punch. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/21/23 at 05:27:34 Thanks Mike. Good to know this 2005 S40 has flange bolts and no washers! This is what happens when you read Clymer word for word! I’d be completely lost and bum fizzled without your knowledge and help!! When you say “snag the gear” with your fingers, can you please elaborate? What the best hand and fingers to get in there? Do I need to pull the assembly out a bit to get my fingers back there. My test fingers, with everything still together, seem to think so, or I’m coming at it wrong. I have a doctor appt this morning and then I want to attempt removal this afternoon. Thanks. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/21/23 at 08:50:12 Rear brake is fully applied using the adjuster nut. Wear Index mark (kinda hiding behind axle position, belt tensioner bolt) shows the rear brake shoes still have lots of life left. (Yay, but I think the brake camshaft pivot is sticking from sitting up. More fun!) Getting ready to bump it up into 5th gear. I mentioned in my prior post that when I removed the 4 nuts on the plate assembly, the whole thing turned about 1/4" (and the gears) before I held the clutch pack assembly while loosening the bolts. Any concerns? I suspect I need to re-verify TDC on the compression stroke before I pull the head cover. Did I turn it off TDC when the whole apparatus turned? I can check this myself, but I wanted to throw the question out there for better understanding. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/21/23 at 11:18:46 I have reached frustration level 10.0! in my ignorance! I got better-sized temporary washers (I had to go to the hardware store anyway). I got the lockwasher flattened out without too much anxiety. The rear brake is locked up. The rear tire is blocked up nicely with 2x4 secured together. Bumped up the gear shifter into what I think is 5th gear. Go to loosen big 32mm nut and the whole motor turns with relative ease. I can even hear and feel the piston chugging up and down in there. What the heck? I go to check the gear shifter --- and it only wants to drop down what I think is 1 gear. And it's stuck and won't downshift any more. I saw Mike's post about jamming a piece of soft copper tubing between the gears, but what's going on? This thing is loose as a goose. I don't see or feel any energy trying to move through the belt to the rear wheel. Should I temporarily put the battery back in and put the gas tank back up there and go back to neutral and try to find 5th gear again? Maybe I was only able to shift up to 2nd that I thought was fifth and vise versa when I can only seem to downshift 1 gear. Is it sitting in neutral? I have no idea where I'm at and what's going on! I'm stepping away from the bike for now! I need to chill! Feeling very concerned and defeated! |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/21/23 at 11:27:28 I did a fabulous job blocking the rear wheel with some scrap 2x4s and star bit stinger screws! |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/21/23 at 12:46:32 Ok. Took 10 deep breathes. I'm in neutral and apparently was in neutral trying to turn the nut. All that clunking, thinking I was bumping up to 5th gear, was fake noise. I can bump it down into 1st with a couple tries, but it won't bump up into 2nd and beyond... This is with a temporary 10mm bolt (bolt thru the frame that was missing and that Mike saw) holding the foot peg, side stand, and gear shifter bracket in place - so it's not totally wonky . I could keep trying to find 2nd gear... But, I'm just gunna stop right here and wait for roadside assistance. Bike is now sitting in neutral with the battery and gas tank put back away on the bench for the day. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/21/23 at 15:09:23 I bought a couple sweat copper couplings like used for compression fittings in plumbing. I believe this would be described as "soft" (no technical specs regarding hardness for these suckers). I bought a 1/4" and 3/8". Photo next to a 12mm socket for size reference. The 1/4 looks like it might get ground into the gears too much. The 3/8 will be more difficult to get wedged in the gears and grabbed upon. Which one? I can only find 1st gear on the bike. Try 1st gear, with rear brake locked up, rear wheel trapped, and copper coupling? Bust a nut! YES, NO???!! |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/21/23 at 16:32:17 Stop! Take a breath. Do not attempt to place those fittings in your gear mesh, they are too hard. I apologize. I did not recognize just how inexperienced you are. The question regarding the lock tab washer should have been a clear indicator. Let's slow it down a bit and see if we can't get you back on track. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/21/23 at 16:41:06 A motorcycle has what most mechanics refer to as a "crash box". It does not have synchronizers. It just uses dogs on the gears to engage the gear with its respective shaft. You can't shift through the gears with the rear wheel locked. You need to rock the vehicle back & forth (forward & backward) in order to move the shifter and transmission through the various gears. With the rear wheel on the ground and the engine turned off, you need to rock the bike back and forth as you pull up or push down on the shift pedal. Pull up to move to the next higher gear, push down to move to the next lower gear. So, if you want to place your motorcycle in 5th gear, you need to release the rear brake, sit on the bike, and move it back and forth while pulling up on the shift pedal. It will be very evident when the transmission slips into the next gear. If it is currently in neutral, you have to advance the transmission into 2nd, then 3rd, then 4th, and finally 5th gear. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/21/23 at 16:47:46 If you are in a situation where you can't get on the bike and move it back & forth, you can accomplish the same thing if you jack it up and get the rear wheel off the ground. Then rotate the rear wheel back and forth by hand. We're not talkin full rotations of the wheel, just bump it back and forth enough to slightly rotate the trans shafts while you are pulling up on the shifter pedal. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/21/23 at 16:54:33 I can't imagine any scenario where you can't put the thing in gear, but if you just can't get it in gear, you can lock up the primary drive with soft material. Key words and phrases, "SOFT". Those fittings you show in your picture look like "rigid" copper fittings. They are too hard. You want annealed copper. That's why I suggested "soft rolled copper tubing". This is a picture of some old soft rolled copper tubing. See how it is coiled up. You can coil it up because it is soft. It is easy to bend. Its annealed. Some guys say use a penny; I say don't use a penny, it's not soft enough. Use annealed copper. So, get the readily available soft rolled copper tubing. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/21/23 at 17:00:20 I take a section of the copper tubing about 4 to 6 inches long and fold over one end, then flatten it out in my vice. You want to limit the folding and flattening. Copper work hardens, so the more you bend and flatten it, it gets harder. One fold, one flatted, then stop. You can see from this picture how the tubing is folded and flattened. You can also see the end where it was crushed in the primary gear mesh. One time use only. Once it's been subjected to the fold/flatten/crush regimen, I discard it. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/21/23 at 17:07:06 Make sure your battery is disconnected before you try to break the clutch nut loose or work anywhere around the primary drive. To get your clutch hub nut loose, you insert the soft rolled copper in the primary gear mesh from the bottom. You will probably have to hold the copper in the gear mesh until you start to turn the clutch nut. As you turn the nut counterclockwise, the clutch will turn and rotate the gear, which in turn will pull the copper into the mesh. That will lock up the primary drive. Continue to turn the socket wrench and the nut should break loose. Insert the copper from the bottom to break the nut loose. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/21/23 at 17:08:26 If you are installing the nut, insert the copper from the top to lock the primary drive while you tighten the hub nut. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/21/23 at 17:13:57 "When you say “snag the gear” with your fingers, can you please elaborate? What the best hand and fingers to get in there? Do I need to pull the assembly out a bit to get my fingers back there." Yes, you probably need to pull the basket out just a bit. I use my right hand, but I suspect your left hand will work equally as well. When you reinstall the basket, it may not go all the way in. If it does that, just rotate the oil pump gear back and forth a bit until the drive gear on the clutch basket lines up (meshes) with the pump gear. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/21/23 at 17:16:12 "I suspect I need to re-verify TDC on the compression stroke before I pull the head cover. Did I turn it off TDC when the whole apparatus turned? I can check this myself, but I wanted to throw the question out there for better understanding." Yes, reverify TDC compression stroke. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/21/23 at 17:24:33 "I don't see or feel any energy trying to move through the belt to the rear wheel." If it's not locked up, it is not in gear. Either get it in gear, or lock up the primary drive. BTW, to use the primary drive method, you need to tighten the bolts on the clutch springs all the way so that the clutch doesn't slip. You don't need to make the bolts super-tight, just enough to compress the springs enough to keep the clutch from slipping. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/21/23 at 17:32:28 You are not defeated. One thing I find admirable is that you stop and ask. That is a really good attribute. You can always stop and ask. You have come this far, nothing is broken. A lot of guys would have wrecked it trying to get the wood out of the cylinder. Go slow, stop and ask, make sure you understand before proceeding. We got nothin but time. 8-) |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/21/23 at 17:40:26 Fair enough with the newbie green inexperienced reference. I'll give this another crack. For the record, I mentioned a chisel and would have got the lock washer straightened out. I need to limit my questions to only the most challenging for me so I don't appear to be such a knob. I've had other bikes that I could get into 5th without all the rocking back and forth, or trying to be a contortionist -- rotating the rear wheel while off the ground and while shifting thru the gears. I'll get this. Didn't know the Savage needed this extra rocking tactic. I thought about the rolled copper like used installing automatic ice makers. I thought I had some left over and would have used it, but I've misplaced it or used it. So instead I bought the copper couplers for about $1 each. They're not terribly hard in my experience working with them, but if you say so, I'll refrain from using. Thanks for putting up with me and helping me! |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/22/23 at 06:26:22 Mike, your 1st clue that I’m a knucklehead was getting a piece of wood stuck down in the cylinder! Lol! Today is a new day! |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/22/23 at 07:33:23 Ok. Clutch assembly nut removed (no crushed up copper tubing jamming required). What's the trick to pulling out the entire clutch assembly? I can get it to back out about 1/4" and then it gets stuck. I can see that it's not jammed at the visible gears. How much force is required? And I can feel how I'm supposed to snag the oil pump gear. Prying is obviously a bad idea -one must be very careful and pull it out square and straight. Am I just being scared and weak? I can't really wiggle it (probably a really good thing). |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/22/23 at 07:36:00 And I think I want a new locking washer. It's not too mangled out of shape and could probably be reused, but I think I just want a new one and fresh start. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by Surviving Philly on 12/22/23 at 07:41:30 So, you're at a point now where you can either pull the entire basket out or just the plates -- if you're pulling the entire basket just go ahead and get your hands around it and pull but be mindful again about that dowel pin for the oil pump gear. If you're pulling the plate pack out first or only just wiggle it free from the basket while pulling out -- I would have one hand on the basket another on the pressure plate or spring studs and pull from there. It's not catching on anything, nothing is holding it in at this point you're good to just pull it out. As far as jamming the gears for reassembly, I'm pretty sure last time I did my clutch I was able to put it in gear, hold the rear brake lever at the drum with one hand while torquing down the basket nut with a 1/2 Inch torque wrench in the other. I've never Jammed the gears personally. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/22/23 at 07:51:10 Thanks Philly. I am trying to pull the whole basket including the oil pump gear. Trying to keep it all together with the dowel pin still captured. Am I thinking about this wrong? I'm trying to snag (as Mike put it) the oil pump gear as well. Am I reading that right? My assemble is pretty dry. I may need to get some oil in there behind the basket and on the shaft and gears. Can't hurt. I just don't have any experience to know how hard I need to pull. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/22/23 at 08:46:01 Ok. Some oil and removing the clutch pack first made everything easy. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/22/23 at 08:47:08 Transmission shaft looks good. Threads look good. Anything I'm not seeing? |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/22/23 at 08:48:03 Oil pump gear and dowel in place. Seems good to me. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/22/23 at 08:48:55 Clutch Hub with Washer. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/22/23 at 09:01:16 Clutch Pack on the Bench. Yay. Now time to remove the springs, discs, and plates and start measuring, inspecting, and soaking and cleaning up the friction discs in fresh oil with a nylon brush. I'm dismissing some suggestions to clean with gas, kerosene, brake parts cleaner, simply green, dish soap and water, drying, baking in the sun, sanding, etc, etc, etc. It's a wet clutch that likes fresh Rotella T4 oil and needs to create friction. Solvents, water, soap, and possibly removing material and thinning the discs doesn't compute in my brain. If I see some bad glazing, I might hit those spots with a little buffing of 600 grit automotive sand paper. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/22/23 at 10:06:21 Clutch pack in hand. There are 2 clutch plates side-by-side. Shouldn't one of those clutch plates go next to the thicker 1st Number 1 fatter friction disc? #1 fat friction disc, plate, friction disc2, plate, friction disc2, plate, friction disc2, plate, and so on....until you end with a friction disc2 against the pressure plate. Right? |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by verslagen1 on 12/22/23 at 10:13:53 correct alternate plates with disks |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/22/23 at 10:17:41 All the plates look about like this. They seem alright to me - not toasted or bluing. They are reading 1.4mm thick on my cheap caliper (no spec on these). |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by Dave on 12/22/23 at 10:19:17 2 steel plates adjacent to each other.....and 2 fiber discs adjacent to each other - That aint' right! |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/22/23 at 10:29:56 I'm not going to post photos of all the #2 fiber disc measurements. They are all reading right at 2.9mm (again with my cheap caliper and squeezing tight). A generous reading of 2.9-3.0mm was observed across all #2 fiber discs. Standard is 2.92-3.08mm. Wear limit is 2.62mm (0.103 in). I didn't measure every friction disc claw. They all seem to be about 15.8mm. They ain't going nowhere. I feel pretty good about these. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/22/23 at 10:34:46 The No1 friction disc measured 3.4mm. Standard is 3.45-3.55mm. Wear limit is 3.15mm. I feel good about it. Any observations about my clutch pack aside from 2 clutch plates next to each other instead of alternating? Do they look like stock Suzuki OEM parts? I think so... |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/22/23 at 10:51:01 Thanks Verslagen and Dave! Even a knob like me knew that didn’t look right! It hurt my OCD. Verslagen- Holler at me about the CCT. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by Dave on 12/22/23 at 10:51:24 Show us a photo of a fiber disc plate with the oil wiped off. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/22/23 at 11:04:24 Well look at you. Bet you're feelin pretty sassy right about now. Good job. Yes, like Dave asked, please take clear pictures of the friction material, just like you did with the steel plate. Also, how was the wave-washer assembly? Was it installed correctly? Can you take pics of that too. I have a few comments that are sort of getting ahead, but it will give you something to think about while you are cleaning clutch plates. It's great that you stored the CCT bolt back in the rear chain guide. It's a special shoulder bolt, and it's small. Easy to lose. I suggest you also store your clutch thrust washer and the spacer on the input shaft. They will help protect the shaft, and help prevent getting the washers mixed up (previously mentioned). Store them on the shaft like this. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/22/23 at 11:06:40 That special CCT bolt threads into a RivNut on the rear chain guide. See how there is a nut attached to the guide. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/22/23 at 11:12:14 When you tighten or loosen the special shoulder bolt, you want to hold the nut with a wrench so as not to break the nut loose from the guide. Also, when you reinstall the CCT, I suggest you make sure the threads on the bolt and the nut are clean and oil free, then apply Loctite. The manual doesn't specify thread locker, but the ramifications of this bolt coming loose warrant thread locker. I personally use the red stuff on this one, but I suspect blue would be sufficient. When removing or installing, hold the nut with a wrench, like this. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/22/23 at 11:20:32 I can see from your picture that you are close to BDC. Just a reminder that you need to get the engine positioned at TDC compression before you remove the head cover. The "dot" on the crankshaft (yellow arrow) will be at 6 o'clock when the piston is at TDC. We already discussed how to tell if it's on the compression stroke or the exhaust stroke. Also, note that there is a letter "L" on your primary drive nut. The green arrow is pointing at the "L". That letter "L" indicates that the threads are left-hand. You shouldn't have to mess with that nut for this job, but you should be aware that it is left-hand threads. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/22/23 at 11:26:17 You have the CCT removed. With the CCT removed, the rear chain guide is loose, and so is the cam chain. Try not to turn the engine backwards with the rear guide and chain loose. If possible, hold the rear guide hard against the chain while you turn the engine. Sometimes I take bailing wire and temporarily tie the rear guide off such that it is hard against the cam chain. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/22/23 at 11:36:04 Thanks guys! And yes, feeling a bit sassier now! Thanks for the storage tip on the thrust washer and spacer. It's in a bag with the hub right now. The other washer is in a different bag with the plate. Yes, I didn't want that CCT nut getting lost. Clymer was actually pretty clear about holding it on the backside with a wrench. I'll use Blue loctite upon reassembly. Remind me later. LOL. Pics of the fiber discs coming soon. And the wave washer - I do have a question about it. It looks pretty flat and boring. Let me see if I can get a close up pic of it removed. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/22/23 at 13:18:34 I tried to get a better photo of the wave washer and wave washer seat. The wave washer appears seated correctly with it being concave inward towards the seat. My eyesight isn't very good. It seems okay. Is there a way to measure how wide it should be and if its tired and worn out? I could try to measure the width with a few shims piled up, but that's about the best I could do. When in doubt, buy a new one? Or leave it as is? If it ain't broke, don't fix it... They should mark the dang thing "seat side" and "disc facing side". |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/22/23 at 13:27:54 Fiber Disc Side 1 and Side 2 of the last disc in the pack next to the pressure plate. I tried to clean off the oil and get some decent photos, but I'm not sure what you're going to be able to tell. What am I looking for? (since the photos probably aren't much help? All the fiber discs look about the same. They all still have visible "tread grooves" like a tire. Fair to say, when the tread grooves are gone, the discs are DONE! How rough should they feel? The surfaces feel fairly smooth without a lot of "grit" for lack of a better word. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/22/23 at 13:28:43 The other side of the same fiber disc. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/22/23 at 13:52:26 Springs are all at 34.5-34.6mm resting length. Wear limit is 33mm, so these still seem healthy. These will be replaced with Barnett springs, so the measurement is provided in case the data is helpful in evaluating overall condition or whatever. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/22/23 at 13:58:27 Inside surface of the hub. On those "down ramp" edges, where my finger is pointing, they are a bit "burred", chipped, rough (or some descriptive word like that). Not butter smooth.... Should I file or grind those down smooth? I'm not buying a new hub for something like this. It would have to be cracked. lol. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by Dave on 12/22/23 at 15:02:47 The fiber discs look fine - no sign of slipping or glazing that I see. I would just put them back in without a bunch of scrubbing or sanding. Those rough spots are likely just some flaws from the casting process. I would not bother with them either. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/22/23 at 16:15:57 I like that answer Dave! My eyesight is pretty bad so it's hard for me to see details (even with my bifocals on or a magnifying glass). What would badly glazed and slippage look like on the discs? Do you or someone have an example photo? When I think glazed, I think shiny and the residual oil on these fiber discs is playing with my eyes. I'm very reluctant to put any type of cleaning solvent on the fiber discs. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by Dave on 12/23/23 at 02:13:24 Clutches that have been abused have bluing from heat on the steel plates, and the fiber discs have a smooth/glazed surface where the steel plates have polished the friction surface. Horribly abused clutches have steel plates that are black and the whole affair stinks of burnt friction material and oil. If your clutch was slipping, it was likely because having 2 plates swapped around caused you to have only 8 contact areas between the steel and fiber plates - instead of the 10 that the bike has when the plates are installed properly. I am confident you will go a better job of getting the clutch back together than the last fellow who worked on it. That swapped plate assembly is the first time I have ever seen somebody make that mistake. How hard is it to assemble +-+-+-+-+ without getting confused? He must have had the TV on and got distracted while he was watching "Baywatch"! |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/23/23 at 05:52:24 Thanks Dave. I’ve never been able to ride this bike to know how the clutch behaves. I’ll admit that me swapping out for the Barnett springs, is to do something cool or upgrade and try to get better clutch performance without knowing how the existing clutch behaves. I’m fixing something that isn’t broke trying to gain something that may not be lacking. (Does that make sense - I need more coffee.) I don’t see anything severe. But, I expected the fiber discs to be a little rougher to the touch. But I have no basis for comparison, so I really don’t know what fresh new fiber discs feel like. They measure out okay, because wondering if I should install fresh discs and plates. I’d prefer to save the money, but I want to address it if it makes sense. I probably just need to get the wood out and get her running and moving again. Revisit the clutch later if it’s a problem. I’ve already done more here than I anticipated in getting the head off and wood out. The whole reason for pulling the clutch is to be able to remove the rear cam chain guide to more easily get the head off per Mike’s recommendation. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/23/23 at 10:17:14 I see you are asking about the wave washer orientation in another post. I answered your question in that other post, and am repeating the answer here. I don't see how it could be any clearer than the sketch Versy provided, but maybe a markup of your own picture might lift the fog. Your pictures that you provided in this post shows your wave washer correctly installed. I have marked one up. The wave washer seat (yellow arrow) goes against the face of the aluminum clutch hub. As previously mentioned, it is there to protect the aluminum face from the sharp edge on the wave washer. The inside diameter edge of the wave washer (green arrow) goes against the wave washer seat. The outside diameter edge of the wave washer (red arrow) goes against the first steel clutch plate. You ask how you can test the wave washer to make sure it has proper force. That thing is not worn out. Don't worry about testing it. It's conical; it's good. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/23/23 at 10:43:56 Thanks Mike. Sorry to be a nervous Nellie with OCD. And making you repeat yourself. I’m trying to refrain and control myself! Reading the internet and seeing screw-ups by others put me on high alert! Any comments on the other parts and photos before I try to put my mind to ease on this step? Thanks. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/26/23 at 15:28:10 Head Cover removed today. The L65 bolt is a menace. I had to push it inward and out of its slot and lower it to lift and clear the head cover under the frame. Not sure how that's going to work putting the head cover back on with the motor still in the frame. It may get a chrome headed bolt running downward from the chrome glory cover and then get a nut on it between the fins. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/26/23 at 15:29:07 Rocker Arm Pads and Journals |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/26/23 at 15:30:02 another view |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/26/23 at 15:31:22 more |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/26/23 at 15:32:28 Camshaft |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/26/23 at 15:33:03 Camshaft 2 |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/26/23 at 15:34:41 Intake Valve Springs & Seats. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/26/23 at 15:35:17 Exhaust Valve Springs and Seats. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/26/23 at 15:42:03 Seeking assessments and observations. Note: None of the head cover bolts identified as needing gaskets (washers) per Clymer had any washers. Can I use normal M6 stainless steel washers from Ace Hardware upon reassembly? Thanks. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by Dave on 12/27/23 at 03:28:44 That is the first rocker with the hardened pad I have seen with noticeable wear on it - and it is the intake side! What does the top of the intake cam lobe look like? I believe the rocker is likely usable - but I would use good oil and keep the idle speed up in the future. (Waiting for DragBikeMIke' second opinion on the rocker). |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/27/23 at 05:27:11 Thanks Dave. I’m anxious to hear Mike’s assessment myself. The photos really bring out and highlight the wear on the pad(s). It’s not really as noticeable to the touch or in person. The pads aren’t excessively ground down (imo). When you say “hardened pads” - are these stock or have they been reworked? I will pull the cam today or tomorrow, and we can get a better look at it. I am still thinking I want to install the web-cam 466 I bought from you. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by Gary_in_NJ on 12/27/23 at 08:47:11 The journal in post 197 is showing signs of failure. How does it feel when you drag your finger nail on it? Does it catch? If you drag some 00 steel wool on it, does it grab the steel wool? |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/27/23 at 09:58:34 Thanks Gary. It’s not raised or snatchy and fine steel wool rides right over it. Photos seem to do a good job of accentuating blemishes. It’s probably ok for now if I keep fresh Rotella T4 15w/40 running in the bike. But I definitely defer to you gurus!! |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/27/23 at 11:30:12 Wow! You made some good progress Paul. Now that the head cover is off, you can rotate the engine without fear of damaging anything. Go ahead and rotate the engine and take good pictures of the nose of each cam lobe. As mentioned by Dave, you have some scoring on your rocker arm pads so we need to see the cam lobes. You also have a very unusual pattern or mark on the exhaust rocker pad. It's not scoring but some sort of discoloration. Try and get some closeup pictures of that area and post. See if it has an edge that would indicate some sort of buildup or depression. Try and snag it with your fingernail. All three of your pictures show the area so it's not a shadow or reflection, there is something there. It might not be a concern, it's unusual though. I am embarrassed to report that I gave you some bum dope in the early replies to this project. I identified your left-hand cam lobe as the exhaust lobe. My bad. The left-hand lobe is the intake lobe. A totally rudimentary observation that I totally screwed up. I corrected the posts and I apologize for the misinformation. This is the unusual pattern I see on your exhaust rocker pad. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/27/23 at 11:31:46 Here is another shot from a slightly different angle. See the funny pattern. How does it feel when you run your fingernail across the edges of the pattern? |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/27/23 at 11:35:55 Another excerpt from one of your pictures. Again, the funny pattern is clearly visible. It's almost as if there is some sort of different material fused into the hardened pad. The upper half of your right-hand cam bearing looks great. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/27/23 at 11:43:22 I believe I see what Gary is concerned about regarding your left-hand cam bearing. If you blow up the picture you can see what appears to be smearing. I have a feeling it's just oil mixed with lint, but you need to take a closer look. Clean up the bearing and make sure it doesn't have smeared aluminum which would indicate the bearing is wiping out. See how this picture shows what appears to be smeared aluminum. BTW, this is a bearing, not a journal. The journal is part of the cam, the bearing is part of the head/head cover assembly. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/27/23 at 11:50:58 Usually, the cam bearing failures are pretty much confined to the lower half (the portion of the bearing that resides in the head). That is the part of the bearing that carries all the load. If a failure gets bad enough, aluminum will liquify and get dragged through the top half (the portion of the bearing that resides in the head cover). If you have a problem with this left-hand bearing, it will be evident once you get the cam out. I think that you should immediately try to remove your right-rear cylinder stud. The complexion of your project will change dramatically if you can't get that stud out, so you should attack that immediately. Do you have your stud removal tool ready? |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/27/23 at 11:53:49 I’ll double check, but I’m not really feeling anything with my fingers and nails. I will likely get the cam out tomorrow and then be able to get a feel and some better pics. Based on what y’all can see right now, is there anything significantly more than normal wear or perhaps a bad valve clearance at some point in its life? Bike has about 10,700 miles. Heads and head covers come as a matched set, right? I have a “70” marked on my head and head cover (like a white marker handwritten and not Japanese). Is this a QR at Suzuki or could these be some eBay parts? The missing washers on the head cover and other evidence suggests someone has been in here before. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/27/23 at 12:06:24 I agree that your rocker pads have some scoring. I resurfaced one used set of new-style rockers (the ones with brazed pads) using wet & dry sandpaper on a surface plate. It is not something an inexperienced wrench turner should attempt. You need a perfectly flat plate and an experienced feel in order to maintain parallelism and the correct radius. I think we need to see those cam lobes to see what the pads have been running on. Regarding those sealing washers, when they have been in service for a long time, they tend to get stuck to the underside of the flange on the hex head. When that occurs, it can look as if there is no washer. Look very close; make sure they aren't stuck on the flange. If in fact the washers are missing, you need to get some OEM washers. For sure you want an OEM washer for the one bolt that can't be removed without pulling the head cover back off. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/27/23 at 12:30:08 To remove the cam, you will need to bend the lock tabs back and remove the two 6mm bolts that secure the cam sprocket to the cam. Do this before you remove the thrust ring from the cylinder head. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/27/23 at 12:35:12 This picture shows one of the lock tabs (yellow arrow). Also note the green lines that show how the timing marks on the cam line up with the head surface. The timing marks must look like this when the piston is at TDC. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/27/23 at 12:39:23 When the lock tab plate is installed, it captures the cam drive pin (yellow arrow). Be careful with the drive pin. It can be removed from the cam, so it has the potential to get lost. Again, note the cam timing marks (green lines). You must be familiar with these marks for reassembly. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/27/23 at 12:40:29 This is the thrust ring. You want this in place when you bend the lock tabs on the sprocket bolts. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/27/23 at 12:45:20 Once the lock tabs have been folded back and the bolts broken loose, remove the thrust ring. Once the thrust ring has been removed the cam can move right and left to facilitate sprocket removal from the cam. When it's time to remove the sprocket, it helps if you can shift the cam all the way to the left. The thrust ring is located here. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/27/23 at 12:46:02 The thrust ring simply rolls out of the groove, like this. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/27/23 at 12:47:23 The only thing holding you rear chain guide in place is this special pivot bolt. There is an aluminum sealing washer under the flanged bolt head. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/27/23 at 12:50:00 When you take the pivot bolt out, be careful not to lose the sealing washer. The washer has a tendency to stick to the head. See the washer on the pivot bolt. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/27/23 at 13:07:18 Once the pivot bolt has been removed, you should be able to pull the rear chain guide out the bottom through the primary case. I find that it's easier to wrestle the rear guide out once the cam chain and sprocket have been removed from the cam. The yellow arrow shows the direction you want to pull the guide, sort of down and to the rear slightly. You may have to twist it a bit. It's kind of a juggling act. My picture shows the primary drive gear removed, but you shouldn't have to remove the gear. Mine was in this configuration because I was attempting guide removal with the head cover still in place. So, if I could get the thing out with the cam chain still hooked up to the cam, you shouldn't have any problem getting the guide out with the cam chain out of the way. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/27/23 at 13:21:33 Now that you have an idea of what to do, lets go through steps. -Bend back the lock tabs on the cam sprocket bolts. -Break loose the cam sprocket bolts. -Remove the thrust ring. -Remove the can sprocket bolts. -Shift the cam to the left and pull the cam sprocket off it's fit (watch the drive pin, don't lose it). -Lift the cam chain off the sprocket. -Juggle the cam out of the sprocket and chain and head (frustrating). -Remove the sprocket and tie off the cam chain with wire or carefully lower it into the primary case. -Remove the rear chain guide pivot bolt. -Pull the rear chain guide out through the primary case. -Remove the right-rear cylinder stud and the left-rear cylinder stud. You are ready to start cylinder head removal. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/27/23 at 14:14:17 Thank you, Mike!! These instructions and detailed photos are invaluable to me! I did receive the stud puller from Dave. I’m going to start with the cam removal tomorrow. That’s tomorrow’s goal. I’m still waiting for parts so no rush here. Thanks again! |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/27/23 at 14:35:58 A cleaned up view of the camshaft bearing - it was just lint. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/27/23 at 14:38:00 And the other bearing that was showing the lint in earlier photos. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/27/23 at 14:44:34 Broader View. The rocker arm pads feel nice and smooth. I don't know what I'm talking about, but they almost seem like they are streaked from oil, solvent, rtv, or something. It's like the metal is stained. They aren't scarred. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/27/23 at 15:20:40 Cam Gear Timing Marks - just to prove I can find TDC. LOL. One was marked with some white paint that I scratched off with my finger nail. And sure enough, the head cover bolts DID have their washers seized tight to the flange. Probably important to separate them to get correct torque readings during reinstallation. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/28/23 at 11:03:01 I got the cam, gear, chain guide, and nuts on head studs removed. I've tried to use the stud puller graciously supplied by Super Dave and inspired by DBM, but I have not been successful thus far. The tool keeps slipping. Dave - I followed your suggestions of getting the studs clean and dry and running the tool all the way down snug to the head. I did not go super tight against the head - just really snug. So I'm taking a lunch break time out. Eat my Wheaties and try again. Following are some pics of the lower cam bearings, camshaft, and more. I can take more pics if needed. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/28/23 at 11:07:02 There is a small scratch or scoring (where my finger nail is pointing) on one of the bearings. Doesn't seem terrible to me, but I'm not a mechanic. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/28/23 at 11:08:10 another view. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/28/23 at 11:08:52 Camshaft |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/28/23 at 11:09:28 Another angle of the cam. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/28/23 at 11:13:57 Rear cam chain guide. I wasn't sure this thing was coming out. The nut that holds the CCT wanted to get stuck against the gear as you manipulate it out toward the clutch area/rear of case. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/28/23 at 11:15:07 Another angle of the cam chain guide. Looks like its been doing cam chain guide stuff. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/28/23 at 11:19:03 Well....the cam chain didn't exactly get gently lowered into the case, but that's where it ended up. Let's just say my 3rd hand was already occupied. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/28/23 at 11:21:07 Bustin' these nuts took more effort than I anticipated. Skid marks on a couple of the copper washers. The one in the rabbit hole really wanted to give me a hard time (had to grab a longer ratchet to bust that nut). |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/28/23 at 11:27:39 Had to take a photo of the crappy head cap seal. I'm sure y'all have tons more design issues to criticize than me, but this weak arse plug with no sealant is just ridiculous. It should be a screw-in allen head plug with a gasket. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/28/23 at 12:05:14 Yay! I ate my Wheaties and the left rear stud decided to come out. One more stud to go and maybe I'll meet Woody today! I haven't decided what to do with Woody yet (frame it, burn it, bury it, ???). It takes creating quite a bit of jab tension between the rod portion and jab bolt portion of the tool. The sweet sound of it breaking free!! Once loose, it threaded out more easily and cleanly than I expected. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/28/23 at 13:54:12 Meet Woody!! After a C-section, Woody came out at 13mm, 17 grams!! He's a big healthy hunk of burning wood!! |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/28/23 at 13:57:15 The photo of Woody was stagged after a quick clean up of the piston top with some carb cleaner, nylon brush, and soft shammy. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/28/23 at 13:58:41 It's a 94mm piston. Is it stock or do I have some badass high compression flat top? |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/28/23 at 14:03:50 Carbon build-up. What is the best way to give this a good clean up without disassembling the entire head into pieces? Right now, it's sitting on the bench taking a valve bath in Berryman B-60 carb cleaner. I just have it sitting like this photo and pooled the carb cleaner in the valve area to soak (with the spark plug put back in). |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/28/23 at 14:04:26 Got Gunk? |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/28/23 at 14:05:27 Little Baby Woody!! |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/28/23 at 14:17:53 Thanks Mike and Dave for hooking me up with this tool! It took about 4-5 tries getting the right engagement on each stud, but it works!! I was trying to baby it too much initially. You have to force the rod part of the tool on the stud pretty good against the head (not so tight that you crack the head, but tight). Then run the 'left hand threaded jab bolt' down until it hits the stud. Then hold the rod part of tool with a 1/2" open end on the flats. While holding, jam that bolt down on there real tight. At that point, I actually removed the 1/2" wrench on the rod and gave the 11/16" jab bolt a good crank. The sweet sound of it breaking free was awesome! Thanks Guys! |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/28/23 at 14:50:36 Mike and Dave - y'all mentioned the mess that can get down in the right rear stud hole. Here's a pic of the 'milkshake mess' that I was able to suck out with an 8mm tube connected to a canister vacuum. The left rear hole really didn't have anything. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/28/23 at 15:02:50 YAY! The main goal has been accomplished - the hunk of wood is out of the cylinder!! Thank you very much for teaching me and guiding me this far!! I have all the parts to put the head and head cover back together on the bike. I am still waiting for some other parts like a Verslavy CCT which I've sent mine to Verslagen for mod. I obviously want y'alls assessment of the cam bearings, lobes, and everything. I have some time now to clean up and get ready for reassembly. 1) what can I use to clean up the piston and head valve area. Do's and Don'ts. 2) likewise, can I use a scotch bright pad and some solvent to remove the remains of the head gasket? And the mating areas of the head and head cover (I think I've got those ok using some brake cleaner and my finger nails.) Again, thank you!! I am really looking forward to getting the bike back together and running! |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/28/23 at 20:25:04 My goodness, you have been one busy beaver. Can't keep up with you. That is one mighty BIG chunk of wood. Woody is definitely a great name for your hotrod. I will start with a suggestion that you stop with the carbon cleaning. That carbon is normal accumulation, will be right back after about 1000 miles, and isn't hurting anything. But all that cleaning is sending a ton of debris and carb cleaner right down the large clearance between the top of the piston and the cylinder. The crud is getting trapped in the top ring groove and there is no way to get it out. Let it dry up for a day or two and then try to vacuum it out as best you can. I suspect I might be too late with this guidance, but if it doesn't help you maybe it will help someone else. Can't hurt. BTW, be careful rotating your engine with that cam chain all bunched up down around the primary gear. It will jam and you can break something. See the BIG gap around the circumference of the piston. Crud just loves to get into that cavern. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/28/23 at 20:29:43 You want to seal that gap off before you clean stuff. For instance, if you use a mild abrasive to clean up the head gasket surface, lots of abrasive particles with slough off the ScotchBrite pad or sandpaper, and it will go right down the gap between the piston and cylinder. You also need to keep that stuff out of the oil feed and drain. You can seal off the piston with putty and a piece of copper wire. I just love Plumber's Putty. Super cheap, readily available, easy cleanup. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/28/23 at 20:32:01 Use a piece of copper wire to keep the putty from squeezing into the gap. Cut the wire exactly 11-5/8" long and roll it into a nice ring. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/28/23 at 20:33:35 See how nice that 11-5/8" long wire fits into the bore. Push it right down against the circumference of the piston. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/28/23 at 20:34:58 Then take small rolls of plumber's putty and use them to tack the copper ring in place. Like this. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/28/23 at 20:36:08 Then completely seal off the top of the piston by packing the circumference with the putty. Like this. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/28/23 at 20:40:04 You also need to keep the crud out of the oil feed and oil drain. The oil feed is in the right-rear corner of the cylinder. The oil drain is in the left-front corner (also a stud hole). I use vinyl caps for cleanliness plugs. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/28/23 at 20:49:54 Just make sure the plugs fit tight so you don't lose one down a hole. You can't name your hotrod "Vinyl". So, one plug in the feed (red plug) and one plug in the drain (black plug). Keep this in mind. Trash in the feed hole will go directly to your cam, trash in the drain hole will go directly to your main bearing and balance shaft bearing. You don't want crud in those holes. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/28/23 at 20:53:40 You also don't want trash going down the cam chain cavity. This is a tough one to completely seal off. A paper towel or a rag is about the best you can do. Use a little BrakeKlean or mineral spirits on a paper towel to wipe out the cavity first. Get the oil off the surfaces so grit and dirt doesn't get stuck in an oily film. Let the solvent dry, then pack the cavity with a towel. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/28/23 at 20:57:08 Once everything is protected, clean off the gasket surface with a very mild abrasive. I like ScotchBrite, the green variety. I use it with a small amount of oil and only work the surface just enough to remove the remnants of gasket coating. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/28/23 at 20:59:10 Gently work around the surface until you can see that all the old gasket coating has been removed. Easy on the elbow grease, remember, it's an abrasive, it removes metal too. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/28/23 at 21:02:28 Wipe it all up with clean paper towels, then follow up with another wipe down using some mineral spirits. Make sure you thoroughly wipe out the keyhole groove in the oil feed system (red arrows). Use a Q-tip to get all the rubbish out of that groove. See how nice it cleans up. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/28/23 at 21:06:08 Once you get the top of the cylinder cleaned up, vacuum up the piston and all around the circumference of the bore. Then remove the plumber's putty and the copper wire ring. Then vacuum the circumference again. Since you have been dumping carb cleaner down there, I suggest that you squirt some clean engine oil around the circumference of the piston to lube that top ring. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/28/23 at 21:13:12 The cylinder head also has oil feed and drain holes that correspond to the cylinder. The head is removed so you can wash it in solvent, but you still need to be cognizant of those critical holes. Use similar methods to keep abrasive particles out of those holes when you clean the gasket and sealing surfaces. ScotchBrite works good on the head surfaces too, but you need to mask off the valve pockets, valve springs, etc. to keep the grit from getting in all the nooks & crannies. This shows the oil feed hole (yellow arrow) and exhaust valve pocket drain location (red arrow). Keep the trash out of those holes and pockets. Also keep the trash out of the cam bearings. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/28/23 at 21:16:18 Don't forget that the left-front stud hole serves double duty. It connects to the exhaust valve pocket drain and directs the oil back to the sump. Keep that hole clean. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/28/23 at 21:31:36 The head cover sealing surface will also need cleaning. ScotchBrite works good on this too. You need to take appropriate measures to keep grit off the rocker arms and out of the bearings and the bearing oil holes. The oil feed passage to the head cover has this unique oval o-ring. You need to keep the grit out of this passage. A plug is in order. You can also wash it up with mineral spirits but make sure you oil the shafts afterwards. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/28/23 at 21:36:08 Regarding your piston, yes, it is a stock piston. Note that the top of the piston has some pretty good scratches. Once you get everything cleaned up and you have oiled the top ring, you should get the cam chain untangled and rotate the engine so the piston is at BDC, then inspect your cylinder. I suspect the scratches on the piston are from your fishing expedition, you may find that the cylinder bore is scratched up also. Let us know what you find. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/28/23 at 21:49:18 I'm glad the stud puller worked good for you. I like the way you marked the top of your studs with that blue tape. You don't want those getting installed upside down. The scratch in your cam bearing is from trash. That's why I stress cleanliness. That particular scratch shouldn't cause a problem, but you don't want any more scratches. Your cam looks good too. Since you have no idea how this engine runs, and you have probably figured out that a cam change is pretty easy, I suggest you hang on to the 466 and run the stock cam for now. Your rocker pads are a bit sketchy, and it would be a shame to chew up the performance cam. Are you planning to install a Verslagen head plug, or will you be using the stock plug? What is the liquid that you sucked out of the right-rear stud hole. Is it water, oil.....? You need to do a good inspection of the three threaded holes in your cylinder. Inspect each hole for any evidence of stripped threads. Also inspect the bolts that go in these three holes (the three super long head cover bolts). These three holes are notorious for stripping out. If there's a problem, you want to find it now. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/28/23 at 21:53:07 I can see from your pictures that you might have had a head gasket leak on the forward side of the cylinder head. Once you get it cleaned up, inspect the area where the embossed fire ring contacts the cylinder and cylinder head. Make sure there are no cuts or divots. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/28/23 at 22:03:46 The copper washers for the cylinder head nuts look pretty crushed. As I recall, you have new replacements. Also, the theads on your right-front cylinder stud are corroded a bit. Those threads need to be cleaned up with a small wire brush before the head goes back on. When the time comes, we need to go over lubrication and tightening. This old post has some good info. http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1576269113/12#12 Also, sealant application is critical. This is one of those situations where less is more. This old post has a useful tool that makes application a breeze. http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1525551307 |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/29/23 at 05:49:10 Thanks Mike. I’ll get everything masked and sealed off and get my mating surfaces cleaned up. Yes, the scratches on the top of the piston are from my fishing expeditions. Not ideal, but they will get buried in fresh carbon within 1000 miles. Not really worried about this. I’ll get the piston lowered and check the cylinder walls. When I removed the head, the piston was at the bottom. I pulled woody out. Then used a soft shammy with oil and whipped down the cylinder walls before bringing the piston to the top. I think I’m okay and lesson duly noted. I’ll oil up the ring area and lower the piston and get some photos of the cylinder walls. I think I’m okay. I’ll check Clymer and a parts diagram, but how many dowel locating rods are between the cylinder and the head? For reassembly, should they be inserted in the cylinder or the combustion side of the head? I need to double check, but I think I saw 2. One came out with the head and one stayed with the cylinder. I think. I need to finish my coffee and head out to the garage. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/29/23 at 08:42:45 Please take a look at the following photos. I think I did a pretty good job cleaning up and not not getting trash down the holes. Do I have the "green light" to install the new head gasket and head? And again, where should the dowels be when I put the head back on? Logic tells me they should be in the cylinder (not the head) so I can get the head gasket aligned and situated in the right place. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/29/23 at 08:46:33 Cylinder walls look good. No scoring. Just some oil/carb cleaner residue lines where the piston rested when I was trying to float Woody within reach of various extraction gizmos. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/29/23 at 08:47:26 Another angle view of the cylinder walls. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/29/23 at 08:49:39 CC side of head. Cleaned up nice in my opinion. With some of the carbon removed, it appears my valve seats look pretty good. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/29/23 at 08:52:53 Top of Head. The mating areas will get a final wipe down with 90% isopropyl before the Suzukibond application. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/29/23 at 08:56:45 What I plan to use as an applicator for the Suzukibond. This will help me keep my bead thin and give me better control (aim) during application. A tip from Dave and I just happen to have these laying around. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by Gary_in_NJ on 12/29/23 at 10:00:15 Paul, I know you don't want to hear this, but that cylinder could use some love. It shows signs of scoring, and the cross hatching is gone. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/29/23 at 10:41:18 Argh! You’re right Gary. I don’t want to hear that. That’s too much love for me! Way above my pay grade! Y’all just trying to make me do a big bore and new flat top piston! Bike has 10,700 miles. Lack of timely oil changes with good oil like Rotella with ZDDP? How much cross hatch honing should I see? Is this piston gunna fry without attention? Argh! |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by Surviving Philly on 12/29/23 at 12:04:07 Wow that piece of wood was a lot bigger than I expected. Nice work thumper this is a really valuable thread. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/29/23 at 17:26:39 "Do I have the "green light" to install the new head gasket and head? " Not yet. You still have some buildup on the cylinder liner right where the head gasket fire ring seats. If you recall, this area looked questionable, as if the head gasket was leaking a bit. There was brown discoloration indicating possible leakage. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/29/23 at 17:30:55 That area should look like this all the way around. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/29/23 at 17:37:41 I agree that the scratches in the top of the piston are of no concern. What I am concerned about is the cylinder wall. While you were fishing around in there, you may have chewed up the cylinder wall. Although your pictures are very good, I can't see the detail on the cylinder wall. Got any of those scratches on the cylinder wall? You are correct, the dowels need to be in the cylinder. Those little buggers can be a pain in the neck. You don't wanna just grab em with pliers, they are precision pieces. I find that a small hose clamp works great for dowel removal. You still have to be careful. You want the clamp positioned well away from the gasket surface, so you don't chew up the sealing area. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/29/23 at 17:39:06 Then you grab the clamp instead of the dowel. A little rotation and a little pulling and the pesky dowel usually comes right out. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/29/23 at 17:48:58 The head gasket surface on the bottom of the cylinder head looks OK. It has more scratches than I'd like, but I suspect that it could simply be an optical illusion. Sometimes a photo can make a scratch or divot look way worse than it actually is. Did you use anything other than green ScotchBrite to clean the surface? The 8mm head stud on the front side of the head looks like it could be a little proud. Those studs have a tendency to pull out. That usually happens on motors with enlarged exhaust ports and higher compression. Check that stud with something perfectly flat and sharp. Make sure the steel shoulder on the stud is not situated above the gasket surface. See how this tool bit snags the edge of the shoulder on the stud. It shouldn't do that. If the shoulder sticks up above the aluminum sealing surface, it will interfere with proper gasket crush. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/29/23 at 17:49:46 I’ll see what I can do with it. Gary in NJ has me worried about the cylinder walls now. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/29/23 at 17:54:39 The valve stem tips look a little funky (green circles). Are they nice and smooth? Can you get a better picture. Valve stem tips usually have a nice shiny circle in the center where the adjuster contacts the stem tip. I can see your adjusters look pretty good, don't know why the stem tips wouldn't be good too. See if you can clean them off and get a better picture. The smaller head cover dowel needs to be moved from the head cover to the cylinder head (red circle) |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/29/23 at 18:02:19 The syringe will be fine for sealant application. Correct application is very important. I'm gonna go over a few things regarding sealant. Head cover sealant can cause big problems. Get that stuff where it doesn't belong, and you can obstruct oil flow to the point of failure. In particular, the cam bearings are easily fouled with sealant. See these chamfers at the edges of the right-hand cam bearing. Those chamfers provide the majority of lubrication for the cam lobes. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/29/23 at 18:06:03 Similar chamfers in the left-hand cam bearing provide lubrication for the exhaust valves and also the left-hand main bearing and balance shaft bearing. I think you can see that the chamfers are small. If you get carried away with the sealant, it can squeeze out of the joint and completely fill the chamfers. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/29/23 at 18:07:32 I’ll check the depth of that stud. Great tip on getting the dowel out without damaging it. I’m glad you caught me before I put some pliers on it. I used a nylon brush on a couple spots and brake cleaner in addition to a scotch brite. Those scratches are super magnified in photo. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/29/23 at 18:12:59 I haven’t touched the valves. I’ll try to clean up with some oil and shammy. Thanks for telling me to move that dowel to the head. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/29/23 at 18:15:04 I took a Sharpie and marked up a head cover to show how the sealant should be distributed over the head cover sealing surface when the head cover is installed. Note that the footprint stays well away from the chamfers on the left-hand cam bearing, and there is no sealant around the right-hand cam bearing. With a roller type applicator, I can pretty much spread the sealant just like the footprint shows, but with the syringe, you will have to anticipate how the sealant will behave and apply it accordingly. That's not too difficult and I'm sure Dave can give you some tips on how to apply the sealant with the syringe. Don't mistake this picture for a guide on where to lay your sealant bead. This is a picture of how you want your sealant to spread out when you install the head cover. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/29/23 at 18:16:22 See how the sealant footprint stays well away from the left-hand cam bearing chamfers. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/29/23 at 18:17:19 See how there is no sealant around the right-hand cam bearing. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/29/23 at 18:19:44 I have never tried the syringe applicator, but I suspect that you would want to lay a very thin bead just as shown in this picture. Maybe Dave can comment on whether or not this is suitable. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/29/23 at 18:25:41 You need to have everything ready to go before you apply the sealant. Once you apply the sealant it's time to rock & roll. The Permatex Optimum Gray and Optimum Black have pretty decent working time, and Dave has said that the Suzuki bond also has a lengthy working time, but it will set up if you dilly dally. One thing that must be in place before you apply the sealant is the oil feed o-ring. You should tack that in place a day before you go to install the head cover. This o-ring. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/29/23 at 18:28:17 I like to put four very small dabs of sealant in the o-ring cavity and insert the o-ring. Let it sit for a day and you won't have to worry about that o-ring dropping out while you are trying to juggle the head cover back in place. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/29/23 at 18:29:16 This guy will stay put even while you are installing the head cover. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/29/23 at 18:55:02 When you are ready to install your cylinder head, you will need to be familiar with the procedure for tightening up the cylinder head fasteners. In preparation for that, I suggest you get some teflon thread sealant and some anti-seize. The teflon thread sealant is for the right-rear copper washer, and the anti-seize is for the other three copper washers. Permatex PX59214 or Loctite 592 are readily available PTFE thread sealing compounds. I tested both and achieved similar results. For anti-seize, Permatex 771 works well, and it is available in small 5 oz. tubes. The anti-seize and PTFE thread sealant are not for the threads. They are for the joint between the copper washers and the cylinder head. This area needs to be lubricated in order to prevent galling. The threads and nut faces must be lubricated with clean engine oil. More on this later. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by Gary_in_NJ on 12/29/23 at 19:24:49 Mike, I think you may have missed a question above. Look at the cylinder in photo 272. I’m concerned about the vertical scoring on the cylinder wall and the lack of cross hatching. That cylinder looks like it’s in need of resurfacing. What are your thoughts |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by Dave on 12/30/23 at 03:02:21 Paul - Good job on your mechanical apprenticeship! Sorry for being so "missing" in all this fun - I am away with family and the only time I can get on my laptop is at 5AM before the others get up. My laptop is very cumbersome for dong any kind of photos or editing....I will be home this evening. DragBikeMike's illustration of how to apply the sealant is good - I do however circle the sealant around the hole at the top right side of the photo, and also a thin strip around the weird shaped O ring. The syringe I use is about half the diameter of the one Paul showed.....and the tip has a larger opening. It is easy to hold the syringe with your thumb and last three fingers and I push the syringe with my index finger. The syringe can be used over and over - you just leave the left over RTV in the syringe and let is cure - then pull out the plunger and the RTV comes out - the RTV doesn't stick to the smooth plastic.....you may have to help it come out of the tip by pushing a wire through. I will post some photos tomorrow when I am back home. I really like the Suzukibond for the head cover. It sets up slower than other RTV products I have used, it is less glossy and seems to have a bit more "solids" in it, and a tube of it lasts for years without setting up in the tube. When I buy other RTV products the end of the tube sets up in a very short period of storage, and from then on I have to poke a screwdriver through the side of the tube to get to the uncured RTV. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/30/23 at 06:30:41 Thank Mike, Gary, and Dave. Great instruction and photos Mike. I’m going to address the items at the head gasket level today (bolt protrusion, buildup around edge to cylinder, dowel relocation). Then get the head and rear cam chain guide reinstalled. I appreciate the sealant application instructions. I will definitely refer back to these when the time comes. Before I get to that point, I’m going to need some tips and guidance on reinstalling the cam. It should be reverse order of removal but getting the crankshaft in the right position and aligning the timing marks may get a bit complicated for me and I’ll want confirmation with a 2nd set of eyes or more. Mike, I know you said not to risk putting the Webcam 466 in the bike because of the wear on the rocker arm pads. But then it was also noted that the stock cam looked ok (I know you can’t put it in your hands and inspect it more closely and thoroughly.). I think we talked about the Webcam I bought from Dave. It’s gently used, good condition, has some break-in miles, and I got it for a fraction of full retail price. I’m inclined to install it and satisfy my ego by doing something meaningful while I’m in here (besides extracting a piece of wood I haphazardly broke off in the cylinder). Gary raises a concern that has me doing a lot of research. The cylinder wall cross hatching is worn out and possible scoring. I’m going to see if I can get better photos with my endoscope camera this morning. When I run my fingers around in there I don’t feel any scoring. I need better eyesight or enlargeable photos to see and look for cross hatching. I’m at the stage where I just want to get it back together. Then make observation's about oil consumption, burning oil, and temperature. I don’t want to dismiss Gary’s observation and very much welcome his feedback and input! That said, I’ve also read that the erosion of cross hatching is an overrated metric in terms of determining overall engine health and condition. It’s worn itself in this way between the rings and cylinder walls and might just like being left alone as is (me rationalizing a bit probably). |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/30/23 at 10:07:14 The 8mm stud on the exhaust side (front side) is actually recessed maybe 0.5mm. It won't interfere with the head gasket. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/30/23 at 10:26:33 A few photos of the cylinder wall using the endoscope camera. It's hard to get good photos with the lighting and mirror reflection. I wasn't able to capture it in a photo very well, but there is still some cross hatching. It's not ideal, but some is still there. I admit the cylinder walls aren't pretty or ideal, but I'm forging ahead. I'm thinking some of the "staining" or glazing or whatever you want to call it is the result of using carb cleaner and automatic transmission fluid in the cylinder trying to float woody to the top for extraction attempts. AND, the bike had about 1 quart of gas mixed in the oil when I drained it upon getting the bike home after purchase. The carb was in a flooding state and has since been rebuilt. I'm thinking a lot of the weird discoloration in the cylinder and around the one area of the head gasket cylinder wall is burnt oil/gas staining. In my mind, it could also be the cause of the cylinder losing its cross hatching. A burnt lube cocktail. ?? |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/30/23 at 10:27:10 Weird... |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/30/23 at 10:27:51 Not nice... |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/30/23 at 10:28:46 Toasty. Note: none of what you can see in the photos can be felt using my fingers. It's like stained in the metal. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/30/23 at 10:34:18 Head Gasket with locating dowels in place in the head. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/30/23 at 10:38:16 Left side studs in place. Buttered the washers with anti-seize and oiled the threads and nuts. They are only finger tight at this point. The left rear stud that had been removed went in pretty cleanly and easily and seated. The shoulder seems to be where it should be. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/30/23 at 10:52:31 The right rear stud that had been removed also found it's way back down into a solid seated position. This one got a dose of pipe dope on the underside of the washer. All the studs are basically finger tight and just pressed against the washers. I could still stop and slam the operation in reverse at this point. The copper crush washers haven't been molested and the head gasket hasn't received any pressure. I didn't take a photo of the right front stud that's down in the rabbit hole - not much to see really. He's buttered up with some anti-seize as well. The 8mm front and rear have been loosely nutted up. Nothing has been torqued at this point. Cylmers gives the following ranges: 8mm = 23-27 nm 9mm = 29-33 nm I'm putting the ratchet down for now. Torque "ranges" bother me. Be precise. Be clear... Do longer studs need more/less torque? Do buttered nuts and threads get 33 and dry nuts and threads get 29? Is 29 good and 33 is better? :-? And for example on the main long 9mm studs, for torque procedure, do you torque to 22nm on all the nuts crisscrossing around, then back up each of them a 1/4 crank, and then drive 'em home to 30nm? Step away from the torque wrench, Paul! |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by Dave on 12/30/23 at 17:18:33 I am home now, and I can see the photos that you have posted of the cylinder. It appears to me that the bike may have sat for an extended period with the piston up near the top of the bore. And maybe the piston rings got a bit rusty/corroded and etched the cylinder wall at that point. Then later on it got freed up and ran....and maybe contributed to the vertical scratches. Lancer had a bike that sat for a couple of years when he moved to OK, and it suffered the rusty rings/cylinder event - it broke a ring when it came free and needed a new ring set and a cylinder hone to get it back to being healthy. I just don't know if the piston/cylinder will work well as it is.......but you can try and will have most of the knowledge you need to remove the head and get to the piston/cylinder assembly if it doesn't work. The Suzukibond will still be good - you will just need a new head gasket and copper washers...and a base gasket - plus whatever piston/cylinder arrangement you decide to use. The cylinder you have may be a bit too damaged to hone and get a good fit for a new 94mm piston. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/30/23 at 17:29:57 Thanks Dave. It doesn't look that severe to me. We'll see. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by LANCER on 12/30/23 at 17:47:02 The cylinder does look a bit like mine did when the piston stuck in the bore when a start was attempted after a long down time. The photo is hard to see clearly but there is a similarity. Fortunately my cylinder cleaned up well and I’m still using it and it’s doing fine after yet another piston. It will be interesting to see if this cylinder is useable after all. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/30/23 at 18:00:23 Paul, you are moving too fast for me. I see some stuff that I’m not comfy with. I think you should remove the head and clean off all the oil and anti-seize and pipe dope from the fasteners. Your latest pictures of the cylinder are concerning. I’m not worried about any lack of cross hatch, but the forward portion of the cylinder looks pretty bad. Pictures of a cylinder bore are hard to interpret unless they are taken at just the right angle with just the right lighting and at high resolution. But this particular area of your cylinder looks like it was subjected to a seizure. Again, it’s hard to say for sure, but I’m not likin what I see here. See the area circled in yellow. Toward the top, I think I see smeared aluminum. You need to check that area and see if you can get some good, clear, closeup photos. As Dave mentioned, it could also be a corrosion footprint. But that wouldn’t explain the smeared aluminum. Could be a combination of problems. Maybe it was frozen, then started, and seized as a result of the rough corroded surface. We need better photos. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/30/23 at 18:01:10 If you look closely at the older photos that you posted, you can see the vertical lines in the rear of the cylinder. Pistons generally seize on the front and back sides of the skirt. That’s where the piston is the largest diameter. Your suspect areas are front & rear. The front side is the exhaust side, so the resulting damage is usually worst on the front side. Your cylinder looks worse on the front side. See the telltale vertical marks on the rear of your cylinder. I believe these marks are what Gary was concerned about. The picture is deceptive, everything looks so shiny until you blow it up. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/30/23 at 18:02:17 Until you get a solid handle on the condition of your cylinder, it’s probably not a good idea to reinstall the head. You are only two 6mm nuts away from being able to remove the jug. Of course, removing the cylinder will open a whole new can of worms. But what the heck, you are getting pretty good at this stuff. The endoscope photos are not clear enough for us to tell much about the cylinder. You need to get some good lighting and get some clear closeups of that cylinder. I‘m gonna post some guidance on the cylinder head installation. I’m sure it won’t go to waste. Getting the studs installed to the correct depth is very important. You can’t just screw them back in and guess if they have sufficient thread engagement. The studs are high strength alloy steel. They are threaded into low strength aluminum. You must have sufficient thread engagement to prevent the stud from pulling out of the case. Those studs need to be installed a full 14 turns to achieve correct engagement. When you install the studs in the case, you have to count turns. I tested three studs this morning, and each one took 14-1/2 turns to fully install. You need to remove your studs and verify that they go in at least 14 turns. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/30/23 at 18:03:57 When you tighten your cylinder head fasteners, there are several things that affect the torque reading. The torque wrench is simply a way to measure the friction in the thread system. If the friction is high, the torque value will be achieved before the fastener is stretched enough. If the friction is low, the torque value will be achieved at a point where the fastener is stretched too far. When you tighten the head nuts, you are stretching the long studs. Those studs act like springs. The more you stretch them, the more force they apply to the cylinder head. That force stored up in the studs keeps the cylinder head and cylinder clamped together. I don’t recommend applying lubricants of unknown characteristics. That’s why I tested a whole bunch of sealants and lubricants against the factory recommended lubricant (engine oil). You can achieve dramatic variations in stretch with a simple change in lubricant/sealant. This table should give you an idea. Simply changing from engine oil to silicone sealant results in a reduction in stretch of approximately 53%. That is essentially a 53% reduction in stress level. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/30/23 at 18:04:44 You stated that you applied anti-seize to both faces of the copper washers for three of the studs (RF, LF & LR), and pipe dope to one face of the copper washer for the RR stud. That may or may not be OK. I don’t know how those lubricants/sealants compare to what I tested. The pipe dope may have a dramatically different coefficient of friction (just like the silicone sealant did). Same goes for the anti-seize (Nickel base? Moly base? Copper base?). So, I suggest you either use exactly what the factory manual recommends (clean engine oil) on the threads and washers, or use the stuff that I previously suggested. It’s good that you did not apply the anti-seize to the threads. Don’t use anti-seize on the threads or nut faces. Anti-seize has a much lower coefficient of friction, it may result in overstressing the fastener. I’m gonna go through my process. You can use it if you like, but if you find it too cumbersome, you should follow the factory process. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/30/23 at 18:05:21 Clean the male threads. Crud equals friction, so get the threads clean. A wire brush works fine. Make sure the two studs that you removed are threaded into the engine case at least 14 turns. The two studs that you did not remove should be ok. If in doubt, take them out, suck out the holes in the case, and reinstall them to at least 14 turns. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/30/23 at 18:06:21 Clean the internal threads in each nut. I like these little wire brushes for cleaning gun barrels (available at WalMart). |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/30/23 at 18:07:06 See how nice the internal threads are. You also want the flange face clean and smooth. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/30/23 at 18:07:46 Test each nut and stud to verify that the nuts thread smoothly onto the stud. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/30/23 at 18:08:41 Clean all the spot faces on your cylinder head. The right-front is hard to access, do the best you can. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/30/23 at 18:09:44 The right-rear head nut operates in an oil bath. If oil leaks under the nut, it will result in a leak out the opening in the back of the cylinder. The soft copper washer is intended to seal off the nut, but to add a little reassurance, coat the copper washer with anaerobic PTFE thread sealant. I have tested it, and it does not have a significant impact on stud stretch (see table previously posted). Permatex PX59214 or Loctite 592 work about the same. The stud stretch at full torque is very close to that achieved with the factory recommended lubricant. Apply the sealant like this (bottom of the nut and one face of the copper washer). |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/30/23 at 18:10:27 Use a Q-Tip to apply clean engine oil to the internal threads. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/30/23 at 18:11:41 Install the copper washer with the sealant in contact with the aluminum head. Then install the nut. It will look like this. Ignore the dowel with the yellow “X”, you don’t have one of those. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/30/23 at 18:12:51 For the remaining copper washers, coat one side with anti-seize. These washers typically gall on the aluminum head. The anti-seize reduces the galling but does not eliminate it completely. You only want anti-seize on the surface that contacts the aluminum cylinder head. I have only tested nickel based anti-seize. Permatex 771 works fine for me. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/30/23 at 18:13:38 Place the copper washers over the studs. The surface with the anti-seize must contact the aluminum cylinder head. See how you can’t see the anti-seize. If you can see the anti-seize, you either applied it to both faces of the washer, or you have the washer upside down. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/30/23 at 18:14:18 Lubricate the internal threads and flange faces of the two remaining acorn nuts. Clean engine oil and a Q-Tip get the job done. Then install the LF & LR nuts. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/30/23 at 18:15:17 The right front cylinder head nut is different. It is a standard flanged nut. It goes down the rabbit hole. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/30/23 at 18:16:09 It can be tricky to install the copper washer with the anti-seize in contact with the aluminum cylinder head. A small rod or dowel works great for this. Just put the washer on the rod, hold the washer while placing the rod against the top of the stud, then drop the washer. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/30/23 at 18:16:59 Lubricate the right-front nut with clean engine oil (face & threads) and install it on the stud. Again, working down the rabbit hole can be tricky. I like to apply tape on a 14mm socket and then press the nut into the socket. Makes the job a whole bunch easier. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/30/23 at 18:19:23 Don’t forget the two 8mm nuts that are installed from underneath the head. One in front, just below the exhaust, and one in the rear, just below the intake. These two nuts and studs need similar treatment. Clean, well-oiled threads. Tighten the cylinder head fasteners in four increments (70 inch-lbs, 140 inch-lbs, 210 inch-lbs, and 280 inch-lbs). If you don’t have an inch-lb torque wrench, divide by 12 to convert to ft-lbs (6 ft-lbs, 12 ft-lbs, 18 ft-lbs, and 24 ft-lbs). Tighten in a criss-cross pattern. Between each increment, snug up the 8mm nuts underneath the head. Their torque spec is 19 ft-lbs, but I haven’t figured out how to get a torque wrench on them. Just snug them up after each sequence and on the final go round try to approximate 19 ft-lbs. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/30/23 at 18:21:44 Paul, I hope this information is helpful. After you get a handle on your cylinder condition, if you choose to go this route with your head fasteners you can refer back to this section. Here are a few other things to be thinking about. -How does the cylinder base gasket look? If it is leaking or extruding, it would be good to know now. -How are those three threaded holes I asked you to check? -Do you have a ring compressor? -Do you have an inside micrometer to measure your cylinder? -Do you have a cylinder hone? BTW, I still think you should hang on to the Web cam. You just don’t know enough about this motorcycle to modify the engine. You have never actually seen it running. See how it runs first, then think about modifications. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/30/23 at 18:45:25 Thanks Mike. I'm plowing ahead without addressing the cylinder wall issues. Let's see what happens. I'll wipe the anti-seize off the top side of the washers for what it's worth. The 2 studs I had to reinstall hit bottom. I didn't count turns. I did leave myself a sharpie mark where they protruded when I removed them. They are down in there to those marks. Getting those studs out once was enough fun. I used Restoseal 5 thread locker on the right rear. It is PFTE based (teflon). Personally, I don't think thread locker does a thing here. It just gets squeezed out. Trust the copper crush washer to do it's job. I used straight 30 weight motor oil on the threads and nuts. Threads were clean and the nuts turn like a hot knife through butter. Yes, I know the stud torquing is a stretching application as opposed to a fastening exercise. Can you please share with me how you torque the main studs? Pattern? 20nm first round, 30nm second round. Or whatever practice you use? Thanks again for all your help!! |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/30/23 at 18:48:35 Sorry Mike. Notes crossed. Yes, I have a digital torque wrench that handles the main metrics. nm, inch lb, ft lb. Thanks for the torquing info! |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/31/23 at 11:09:42 Forging ahead. Head studs torqued to spec. I'm reinstalling the stock cam. The following are photos of the index marks. When I rotate the motor and get the mark lined up through the timing hole and the mark on the main gear is pointing downward towards the floor (6 o'clock position), the index marks are nice and level on the cam. This is without tension being applied to the chain. If I apply a little pressure to the chain (pretending to be the rear cam chain guide and tensioner), chain slack is removed. The index marks on the cam tilt 2-3 degrees counterclockwise. Please see photos if this description doesn't make sense. I think I'm good here. I don't think I can align it any better by moving the chain a tooth on the gear. Am I in a slight 2-3 "advanced" timing here, or am I retarded? (be nice!) |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/31/23 at 11:11:24 Main Gear 6 o'clock index. The upside down "L" is about as level as my old eyes can get. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/31/23 at 11:13:13 Position of cam index marks when turning the motor with no cam chain tensioner pressure on the chain (free riding chain). |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/31/23 at 11:16:52 Cam index marks if I take the slack out of the chain pretending I'm a rear cam chain guide and tensioner. Seems like 2-3 degrees to the counterclockwise direction. Degreeing the cam. Above my paygrade. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by Gary_in_NJ on 12/31/23 at 12:30:05 The cam being off a degree or two is a sign of a worn cam chain. A new chain should have the marks right at 9 and 3 o’clock. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/31/23 at 13:35:23 It's at 9 & 3 until I put pressure on the chain where the rear cam chain guide is located. Sounds like I need to try moving the chain 1 tooth over on the gear to account for the chain slack that will eventually be taken up by the cam chain tensioner. I can try it. I am kinda curious if 1 tooth will be too much of an adjustment or actually be right and get it aligned when chain slack is accounted for. I'm also a little concerned if I move it 1 tooth, that I'll introduce too much slack on the front chain guide. Am I better off leaving as is or trying to move 1 tooth that would introduce a little slack on the front side chain guide? |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by Dave on 12/31/23 at 14:10:08 The "L" on the nut means nothing about timing.....that "L" moves around as you tighten/torque the nut. The photo of the timing mark on the left side of the crank doesn't look entirely lined up - but that could just be a photo issue and not reality. You should move the chain 1 tooth and see if the cam is better aligned. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/31/23 at 15:31:41 I know the L meaning nothing (except left threaded). I just used it for trying to get perfectly vertical since the actual index mark is exactly 180° the other side. I know I’ve got it really close to 6 o’clock exactly. I did it multiple times and this was my best effort. I just moved it 1 tooth. I’ll send photos in a few minutes. An important related question is… how much slack should be in the chain on the front cam chain guide side? Should it be super tight against the guide? Or should I be able to easily get my finger in between the front chain guide and the chain. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/31/23 at 16:02:48 Moved the chain over 1 tooth. See next photo for chain slack on the front guide side with the marks in this position. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by Dave on 12/31/23 at 16:04:20 That looks better! :) |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/31/23 at 16:04:51 This seems like too much slack. My finger between the chain and front chain guide. But I have no idea. To Gary's point - stretched chain. It's like you have to chose between having a sizable amount of slack and line up the index marks nice OR be a few degrees off and remove the slack up front. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by Dave on 12/31/23 at 16:44:40 When you install the tensioner - it has a spring and ratchet. It adjust the tension and takes up the slack on the backside chain. Your only real indication of the chain and guide condition is how far the plunger was extended. If I remember correctly your tensioner was out pretty far - but with the Verslagen modification you get an extended life for the chain. When you get this back together and running - I believe you will likely have enough technical skill to take this engine apart again - and perhaps a hotter piston and the performance cam next time. You can decide if you want a new chain and/or guides then. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 12/31/23 at 17:05:32 Thanks Dave. I know the tensioner will take care of the backside. How much slack should be on the front side. I can get my finger in between the guide and the chain. I know when the crank gear pulls this side, it will use up some of the slack and it needs some slack. But how much is too much? Too much slack could cause chain jumping or snap it. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/31/23 at 19:31:25 "An important related question is… how much slack should be in the chain on the front cam chain guide side? Should it be super tight against the guide? Or should I be able to easily get my finger in between the front chain guide and the chain." The front side of the chain is the drive side, during operation it will be under tension. There shouldn't be any slack on the drive side. As Dave mentioned, when you install the tensioner that front side of the chain should be tight. I run a short cylinder. With that short cylinder I'm sure I have way more slack in my system than most anyone else. I monitor my cam chain by checking the distance between the drive side and the slack side. I use a drill bit. This picture shows where I insert the bit. Note that I have a unique CCT. It doesn't use a pawl, so it doesn't lock up like the stocker or the Verslagy, but it is set up with only about 1mm back travel. The slack side is pretty darned tight. That is a 7/16" drill bit. I suspect you should have more than 7/16" clearance when the rear guide is pushed hard against the slack side of the chain. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/31/23 at 19:37:29 By now you have probably figured out that the crank drifts off the TDC mark. That's because the magnets in the alternator rotor tend to auto-rotate the crank a bit. You should recheck your cam timing once the CCT is installed. That will be the true test. I use this simple tool to keep the crank in position when I am setting up the cam timing. Just put an 8mm bolt in the hole adjacent to the primary drive gear and lightly tighten the bolt against the balance shaft timing gear. Key words & phrases, "LIGHTLY TIGHTEN". Just past finger tight, maybe 10 to 20 inch-lbs. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 12/31/23 at 19:50:57 Set the crank up exactly on the TDC marks, then "LIGHTLY TIGHTEN" the special bolt. Sometimes the action of the bolt may tend to rotate the crank a bit so you might have to go back & forth a bit until you are satisfied with the timing mark alignment. With the CCT installed, the timing marks on the cam should line up even with the head cover sealing surface, just like the photo you posted. If you are satisfied, loosen the special bolt and rotate the engine 360 degrees. Then line up the timing marks on the alternator rotor again and lock in place with the special bolt. Then do a double check of the marks on the cam. Seems like I can never do this check enough. It never hurts to double and triple check. Now is the time to make sure it's right, you can rotate the engine all you want and nothin is gonna hit. Once you put the head cover back on, the timing better be right. Those rocker arms are gonna connect the cam to the valves. If you have the timing out of whack, you can run a valve into the piston (or should I say run the piston into a valve). Don't forget to remove the special crank lock bolt. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 01/01/24 at 05:58:48 Thanks Mike. You nailed it! “Drive side” is the term my mechanical vocabulary was lacking. I need to move it 1 tooth to remove the slack I currently have on the drive side. Yes I did learn that - the crankshaft does want to move 2-3 degrees right at the moment of getting the marks perfectly lined up. It’s infuriating. I am going to try the special 8mm bolt trick. Hopefully I can walk from one side of the bike to the other and get the bolt in there before it decides to magnetically rotate. I know getting this right is extremely critical. Now that I’ve fumbled around with the cam, gear, locating dowel, and chain for a couple hours, I think I can do this. It’s quite an exercise getting this to all go together and lined up correctly. I knew it would be a challenge, but putting my hands on it makes it real. Thanks again! |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by Dave on 01/01/24 at 10:41:24 Here is an example of how I apply the Suzukibond sealant. This is just a quick example on an engine in need of some maintenance. I use either 3ml or 5ml syringe - I can get them at the Vet or Walgreens. The 3ml tip is not as nice as the one on the 5ml - but it works fine. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by Dave on 01/01/24 at 10:42:38 I start by removing the plunger and loading it with RTV - it goes into the syringe easily.......where gloves as this stuff does not come off your skin easily. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by Dave on 01/01/24 at 10:44:05 This is how I hold the syringe when applying the RTV. With a little practice you can get a nice smooth bead by coordinating the push on the plunger with the movement across the head. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by Dave on 01/01/24 at 10:46:26 The applied bead should be about the size of a #2 pencil lead. (I got this a bit too thick as I was trying to hold the camera and apply RTV at the same time). Don't apply too much - anything that squeezes out is excess....once on the inside/outside of the joint it is no longer doing any sealing. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by Dave on 01/01/24 at 10:47:34 This is the cam chain side......as I stated this is just a bit too thick and a bit too erratic - I can do better with both hands to stead the work. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by Dave on 01/01/24 at 10:48:27 Here is an example of the sealant around the cam area. I do apply a thin bead of sealant around both sides of the locating dowel. The area above the spark plug is a place where I have seen leaks on a couple of engines. Make sure this area is clean and smooth when you apply the sealant....and that you don't bump the sealant off as you install the head cover. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by Dave on 01/01/24 at 10:51:55 This is how the sealant spreads out when you apply the head cover. This sealant was just slightly too thick and a smaller bead should be used. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by Dave on 01/01/24 at 10:52:53 Same type photo on the cam side....a bit thinner bead would have been better. You only need to get sealant without gaps - it is not desirable to have sealant squeezing out the joint as the head cover is torqued down. I do wipe off any obvious/obnoxious sealant that oozes out in places that will be visible. If you use any mineral spirits or mild solvent to wipe off excess sealant - only use a lightly dampened rag and do not saturate the surface with solvent. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by Dave on 01/01/24 at 11:20:06 You want to be the manual version of this machine! (Sorry about the poor film quality....not my fault). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0v36vbKYAOU [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0v36vbKYAOU[/media] |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 01/01/24 at 12:18:58 A CNC Sealant Applicator, what will they think of next. That syringe lays down a mighty fine bead Dave. My compliments. You mentioned leaks just above the spark plug. I forgot about that. So, our suggested footprint for the sealant needs to be revised. There are two bolt holes in the cylinder head that break through the casting. I have circled them in this picture. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 01/01/24 at 12:23:42 The bead of sealant needs to go inside these two holes. Unfortunately, the hole above the spark plug also requires that sealant be applied right next to the cam bearing. If that small area doesn't get sealed off, the pressurized oil will run into the hole and leak out just above the spark plug. See how the drilled & tapped hole breaks through the casting. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 01/01/24 at 12:27:04 The hole toward the rear, just above the left-rear cylinder head stud has the same problem. That one isn't a big deal because it's only subjected to splash oil, but if the sealant doesn't go all the way around the threaded hole you can end up with a leak. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 01/01/24 at 12:35:35 I clean these holes out really good with BrakeClean. and then fill them in from the bottom with epoxy. But it's better to seal them from the top to keep the oil out. So, I suggest this revised sealant bead footprint. The area in yellow shows the where the footprint needs to be extended. Paul, you must go sparingly around that cam bearing. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 01/01/24 at 12:47:47 42444B37353236060 wrote:
What is this hole for? I’ve been wondering. Do you have a pic from above where you are talking about? I looked like it terminated in a bolt hole if I remember correctly. Hopefully I got some sealant in the area and I’m ok. EDIT: Ignore this comment question. I missed part of your comments trying to read on my phone. I got the head cover back on without too much drama. I think I got it sealed up per previous instructions and Dave’s add-on suggestion. I didn’t take any pictures. I didn’t want to dilly dally around. I did a couple dry runs to figure out the best angle. The cam gear and chain are tricky to get by with the motor in the frame. And that stupid bolt that hold the glory cover is just a pain. I think I got the mating surfaces aligned right and didn’t disturb the sealant. I spent about an hour with the cam this morning and I’ve convinced myself I aligned it as good as possible. Fingers crossed. Waiting for sealant to cure a couple days. Still waiting for some parts. Tomorrow looks like a day off. Thanks Mike! |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 01/01/24 at 13:28:04 Since I didn't put any sealant down the bolt hole by the spark plug, what kind of epoxy should I use on the outside by the plug. I may as well address this now before I put oil in the engine. If I address now, cleaning up should be less than if I wait to see oil dripping out the hole. I think I got my sealant bead about right compared to Dave's photos. I did squeeze out pretty good over here on the plug side. I may have got enough sealant in and around that bolt hole that is bored right through. That's just some messed up design by Suzuki right there. "Just drill straight through...it'll be fine." |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 01/01/24 at 13:41:40 477C7166777B60667D757867140 wrote:
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by Dave on 01/01/24 at 15:07:53 182439213C293E1C2D39204C0 wrote:
I would just pull out those 2 bolts and put some RTV on the threads, then put them back in and torque em. I have never had any of the bikes I put back together leak - but I have worked on several that have had oily heads over by the spark plug. (See the filthy head in this photo.....since the dirt/oil is up on the vertical area by the spark plug, I suspect the sealant was leaking at the seam). |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 01/01/24 at 16:14:31 I like that idea, Dave. I can use a straight syringe and inject it down the holes and then torque it back up on those bolts. Thanks. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 01/01/24 at 16:45:04 Except the hole above the spark plug is for the bolt that can't be removed. So, just come from the bottom of the hole and seal it off with epoxy. The epoxy logs (like JB Weld High Heat) are like clay, so it's easy to simply press the putty into the hole with your finger. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 01/01/24 at 17:00:36 Woops! You're right. Epoxy from the outside it will be. Thanks. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by Dave on 01/04/24 at 12:30:17 I just found out you don't need to remove the cylinder stud after all. Go to 26 minutes for the fun! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qyaLdxhtvjk&t=1572s [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qyaLdxhtvjk&t=1572s[/media] |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 01/04/24 at 12:59:43 ;D Yeah, somebody shared this on Mike post. Just hack off the fins!! Then wonder how you got metal shavings in the motor when you put it back together... I may not be a mechanic, but I won't do this! |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by Dave on 01/04/24 at 16:37:29 I just saw this video - it definitely is not what I would recommend folks do. The fellow who posted it was replacing the head gasket.....most likely there was nothing wrong with the head gasket and is was a typical oi leak from the head plug or failed sealant on the head cover. The fellow chose to hang the right side engine cover (clutch side) rather than just disconnect the clutch cable - that is definitely an indication that he was in a hurry and not too methodical about his work. I wonder if he ever go the bike running again - or how long the repair lasted? |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 01/04/24 at 16:50:31 It’s just hard to watch! :o I’m at a standstill right now waiting for a few o-rings and a longer clutch pushrod. It appears I need the 46.5mm length. I want to compare to the 45.5mm before making a final decision. I’m pretty much wrapped up with everything else. Parts due by Monday. It’s been too long. Some were on back order from Suzuki (apparently in Japan taking the slow boat by the pace of things). Holidays bogged things down too. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by verslagen1 on 01/04/24 at 17:27:58 they're cheap order all 3 lengths. measure how long they stick out of the spider, 13mm is too long, 12mm is the shortest I'll use. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ohiomoto on 01/04/24 at 18:35:43 6F54594E5F53484E555D504F3C0 wrote:
That's just the farmer's version of DBM. IDK, I guess the LS650 has "tractor-like" power. His work might be good enough. :o |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 01/05/24 at 17:05:28 Thanks Verslagen. Good info! |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 01/07/24 at 11:02:00 42444B37353236060 wrote:
When reinstalling the clutch, is it a good practice to put some engine oil on the 2 thrust washers, bearing, and transmission shaft? The final parts needed should finally arrive tomorrow and thinking ahead to reassembly on Tuesday. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by Dave on 01/08/24 at 03:30:28 Yes, you should have a light coating of oil on the shafts and thrust washers and anything else that moves/rubs against other parts. The drive gears don't need lubed as the big gear will dip into the oil once you fill up the crankcase. I have often thought that maybe "overfilling" the crankcase to put a coating of oil on parts before the startup (when an engine has been down for an extended period) might be a good idea - you would then drain the excess and fill the crankcase to the proper level prior to starting the bike. I realize it may be "overkill" - but I don't see how it could hurt anything. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 01/08/24 at 05:14:53 Thanks Dave. That makes sense. The thought of dry starting is concerning to me as well. Before I put the valve inspection covers on, I’m going to slowly add 4-5oz of fresh oil up top. I was also planning to “prime” my new dry oil filter (get it wet). I don’t want it acting like a dry sponge. Then oil fill with 2+ quarts of oil as normal at the crankcase. If I recall correctly, it takes a total of 2.3 quarts after a rebuild. Can you confirm? EDIT: Looks like 2.4 LITERS (2.54 quarts) total capacity after a rebuild or dry state. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by verslagen1 on 01/08/24 at 09:40:46 here's a tip for you... remove the timing plug and the oil will drain to the right level on the sidestand. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 01/08/24 at 10:00:10 Paul, in addition to lubricating the clutch spacer and thrust washers, you should also dip each clutch plate (steel & fiber) in clean oil before you assemble the clutch. When you first start the engine, it will run ten to twenty seconds before any oil reaches the top end. That's hard on the cam & rockers. You want to make sure the oil reservoir for the cam lobes is full of oil before you crank the engine. That would be this reservoir. You need to fill this reservoir using a small hose. Red arrow shows the path that the hose must run. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 01/08/24 at 10:02:55 Use a pump-type oil can or a suitable squeeze bottle. Run the hose through the intake valve side, under the rocker arm, and into the reservoir. You can see when the reservoir is full by looking through the opening in the head cover. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 01/08/24 at 10:07:13 See how the small clear plastic hose is routed under the rocker arm. It has to go all the way into the reservoir. Just squirting oil in through the openings will not help much. The oil will just run down the drains. You must fill the reservoir. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 01/08/24 at 10:12:50 You also want to put a coat of oil on the end of the crankshaft where it runs in the oil seal. The oil seal is in the clutch cover, and the crankshaft runs in that seal. Coat the end of the crank with oil, and also coat the oil seal with oil. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by Gary_in_NJ on 01/08/24 at 12:16:46 I use assembly lube (Lucas) on just about everything when I reassemble an engine...and I'm not shy about how much I use. I also will remove the spark plugs and crank the engine over for about 30 seconds so the oil pressure builds up a bit before my first start. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 01/08/24 at 12:30:57 Thanks guys! |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 01/08/24 at 13:58:57 PS - should the clutch cover gasket get a coating of grease or oil, or just keep it dry? |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by Dave on 01/08/24 at 19:09:25 0438253D2035220031253C500 wrote:
If you put it on dry - it will work fine....but you likely will never get it back off again without it sticking and tearing. Wipe a light coat of oil on the side that faces out and doesn't have the factory sealant applied to the gasket.....and the cover will likely come off without tearing the gasket. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 01/08/24 at 19:34:38 Thanks Dave. I haven’t even opened the plastic package the gasket came in to actually study it. It is an OEM Suzuki gasket. I didn’t realize in has some factory sealant on one side. I’m not really worried about being able to reuse it. I always expect to need a new one. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 01/10/24 at 14:55:05 Ok... I got everything put back together except the gas tank, fuel line, and seat. I'm waiting for a new throttle cable to completely wrap up. EDIT: And I don't have the spark plug installed. I decided to try to crank the motor with the spark plug removed and try to get the oil moving around. Battery fully charged and reading 13.5V after a 15 minute rest off the charger. Headlight comes on good and bright. Hit the starter button and I can hear and can see the decomp move. I adjusted to 4mm when I did the valve lash. The starter only gave a maybe 1-2 second bump. I then adjusted the decomp cable/solenoid for a bit more slack. I didn't do it while on TDC - I just tried to make a small change. Try to start again and the decomp clicked (kinda clunked) and nothing from the starter. Reversed my decomp adjustment and nothing from the starter. Decide to find TDC and adjust the decomp correctly. I go to turn the motor by hand and it won't move it using pretty good amount of force. i stopped and didn't try to force it. I remove the exhaust valve cover inspection cover and the decomp actuator rod is sitting about 1-2mm over the rocker arm. Looks about the position gap if the bike was TDC, but the bikes not at TDC. Why can't I turn the motor by hand? Why won't the starter get cranking? What's going on? Argh! |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by verslagen1 on 01/10/24 at 17:09:05 1st thing to check with starter stall is did you have the stator cover off? If so, you must have put the washers back in the wrong location. http://https://suzukisavage.com/yabb2.2/Attachments/washer-location_002.jpg |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 01/10/24 at 17:31:02 I did not remove the stator cover. It is like the starter gear or something is jammed and the engine can't rotate now. I don't know... I was able to turn the motor by hand just a couple days ago... |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 01/11/24 at 02:12:16 Have you tried to rotate the engine by hand? Remove the timing plug in the alternator cover and GENTLY try to rotate the engine with a 17mm socket and breaker bar. With the spark plug removed, it should be easy to turn the engine. Verify that you can rotate the engine at least two full revolutions without any evidence of binding. If you feel like something is binding or hitting, STOP. Did you double check & triple check your cam timing once the CCT was reinstalled? Was it easy to turn when you did the double & triple checks with the CCT installed? Did you use copper to lock your primary drive when you tightened up the clutch hub nut? If so, did you remove the copper before you reinstalled the clutch cover? Did you reinstall the cam thrust ring? If the thrust ring is missing, the cam can move right & left, causing a cam sprocket bolt to rub on the aluminum head. See replies #217 & 218. Is there any chance you replace a cam sprocket bolt with a longer bolt, or possibly mixed up the CCT bolt with a cam bolt? If the bolts are too long or the special CCT bolt is installed in the sprocket, same problem, the bolt can rub and cause a bind. Did you install the clutch thrust washers in the correct locations (big one against trans bearing, small one between basket & hub)? If you mix them up the clutch can bind. See reply #113. Is it possible that the transmission is in gear. Don't trust the neutral light, verify that the thing is actually in neutral. Did you adjust the valves with the piston at TDC compression. This drill started out with your fishing expedition. I had you jacking valves open with the adjusters so you could try and retrieve the chunk of wood. Did all that get undone? Can you feel play in the rocker arms when the engine is at TDC compression? |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by Dave on 01/11/24 at 02:39:02 If you installed the oil pump drive gear that is on the clutch hub inside out.....it binds and the engine won't turn over. (I made that mistake once). :( |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 01/11/24 at 05:16:23 Thanks guys. I was trying to turn the motor with a ratchet and 17mm socket. Thats how I learned it’s stuck. I quit trying when I realized it was taking too much force compared to a couple days ago. I did not mix up bolts. I had everything individually bagged. I didn’t mix up the thrust washers. I stored the 1 thrust washer and bearing on the transmission shaft and kept the other 1 separate. Motor turned by hand normally after I did the valve lash, turned 2 turns and verified the clearances. It is in neutral. I can roll the bike around without pulling the clutch. I did use a piece of soft copper to lock up the gears when torquing the clutch bolt. I removed it. I was careful. Not sure what mistake I could have made. Can I pull the starter and hit the starter button to see if the gear is turning? Or does it need to be installed to be grounded? EDIT: Ignore this dumb question before I had enough coffee. I'll remove it and bench test it with battery cable and battery. I had removed the starter to change the o-ring before I began the R&R. Could I have installed it wrong to where the gears don’t mesh up? Doesn’t seem possible…. But the engine was turning fine before I hit the starter button to try to turn the motor. Can I pull the starter and see if the engine will turn with the starter removed? Can the starter seize up? The prior owner replaced the starter, relay, and battery. He had it running a for few weeks and then it wouldn’t start for him. I almost think I’m running into the same issue…. How can I rule out the starter or determine if it is the starter? Can I turn the motor backwards without damaging anything (like oil pump or something)? What can I try before I remove the clutch cover and possibly head cover and reinspect everything? I did install the 46.5mm clutch pushrod. The release arm is in the lower portion of the range. The 45.5mm put it in the top of the range. There was no perfect happy medium. I also installed the heavier Barnett clutch springs. Or do I get the joy of doing this all over minus pulling the head? I’m really starting to hate this bike. And mostly my lack of knowledge and mechanical skills. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by verslagen1 on 01/11/24 at 09:06:52 6F534E564B5E496B5A4E573B0 wrote:
What year is the motor? Anything prior to '95(?) doesn't have a starter motor torque limiter gear so turning it backwards can engage the one way clutch and try to turn the starter motor. This takes a LOT of power and can bust out the bosses or break teeth. I suppose you could do it if you pull the starter motor 1st. Quote:
I don't think so. I'd pull the stator cover and take a look there 1st seeing the PO had a similar problem. It maybe a broken tooth or something is floating around in there. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 01/11/24 at 09:39:55 "Can I pull the starter and see if the engine will turn with the starter removed?" If you mean remove the starter and try to turn the engine by hand, yes. That's a good idea. You can also bench test the starter while you have it removed. Dave's suggestion about the oil pump drive gear is also excellent. That gear was discussed in detail. I will try to find the number of the reply. You haven't mentioned the cam thrust ring. Did you reinstall it? |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 01/11/24 at 09:45:01 Will see what the starter is doing off the bike. I’m 99% sure I got the oil pump gear right. I was sensitive to that and the dowel. Let’s see what I can figure out removing the starter. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 01/11/24 at 09:47:10 The details on the oil pump drive gear are in replies #97 & 98. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 01/11/24 at 10:04:42 Thanks Mike. I have referred back to those replies and the video. I'm almost positive I go it right, but I'm doubting myself about everything right now. Thanks Verslagen. The bike is a 2006 and I don't think it's had a motor swap. I did read your post and thread about that issue. Let me remove the starter and go from there. I'll let y'all know. Thanks. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 01/11/24 at 10:17:56 I'm starting to think I may have installed the oil pump drive gear backwards. The motor was turning fine before I reinstalled the clutch, and I don't recall checking to turn the motor after I installed the clutch. I think I'm looking at the photos right. The dowel should face the inside of the motor and not on the clutch hub side. Right? I may have got this backwards. I still want to check the starter first. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 01/11/24 at 12:17:39 The starter works fine on the bench. The motor still won’t turn with a ratchet and 17mm at the timing cover crank. I guess I’m going back in to look at the oil pump gear and dowel. Not happy or having fun…. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by Gary_in_NJ on 01/11/24 at 12:28:23 4B776A726F7A6D4F7E6A731F0 wrote:
...but you are learning, and these types of annoyances are the best teachers. Keep at it, you're almost at the finish line. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 01/11/24 at 13:45:52 Thanks Gary. I'm about to find out about the oil pump gear orientation. About to remove the clutch nut and get back there and see what I did. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 01/11/24 at 16:57:37 Dave was right. I installed the oil pump gear wrong. Here's a photo of what I found. I can't believe I did that. Doh! |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 01/11/24 at 16:59:16 And the correct orientation of the gear. I got everything put back together and the engine turns freely as it should. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by Dave on 01/11/24 at 17:01:21 Paul....You and I are now "Blood Brothers"! :D I did that once....however in my case I discovered it before I put the clutch cover back on! |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 01/11/24 at 17:08:43 The wrong orientation did leave an abrasion, but the gears all looked good. This obviously could have been much worse. Glad I listened to Dave and Gary about bumping the starter a little bit without the plug (or gas) installed to try to move some oil around. Ignition probably would have tore it up in there. Tomorrow I'll finish up and cross fingers for a successful outcome! Thanks again!! |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 01/11/24 at 17:13:36 I'll take it, Blood Brother!! Glad I caught it when I did -- before I put fire in the hole! Thanks again, Dave! |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ohiomoto on 01/11/24 at 18:05:07 Seeing how much effort you all put into getting this done is pretty cool. Well, almost done, but "you got this!" |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 01/12/24 at 14:14:29 Woody started right up with the first 2 second push of the starter button using the choke. I kept the idle up around 2,200 RPM for about 10 minutes while sitting on the bike to keep upright. Adjusted the idle to about 1,100 RPM. Put on my jacket, helmet, and gloves and took a short ride in the neighborhood. The clutch is great after the clean up and Barnett springs! New front brakes worked great. Performance was good in the mid-range. Good solid pull! No missing, backfire/afterburn, or smoking exhaust. I didn't try any WOT to test the installation of a 200 main jet the Mikuni VM36 carb. Save that for another day. Got home after after about a 10 minute ride and tweaked the A/F mix and idle a bit. It has a little rocket arm/valve tick. I set the valve lash clearance gap on the wide side of specification between .004-.005 inch. I'd rather have a little ticking noise than have valves that aren't closing completely. Overall, I'm really pleased. I did see a little smoke from up top after the ride and the motor was warmed up. I'm hoping that's just some residual oil that I didn't get cleaned up. I looked around the head cover as best I could and I don't see oil seeping out anywhere. No leaking around the head gasket for sure (that looks good). Here's a short video of the bike idling. I had to make this and share after all the work everyone put into this ordeal!! Special thanks to DragBikeMike for guiding me through this step-by-step! Hope you still have some hair left, Mike!! https://youtube.com/shorts/a_DTqdYWF-k?feature=share |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by Dave on 01/12/24 at 17:11:18 Woo Hoo! :) Good Job! |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 01/12/24 at 19:06:15 And thanks for all your help too, Dave!! Hoping the smoke up top is just some residual oil burning off. And I forgot to put some JBWeld on the stupid drilled out hole for the center head cover bolt that comes out by the spark plug (that's kinda where I think I see smoke coming from). Maybe...hard to tell really...I had the fan running in the garage. I need to pull the tank and glory covers and take a look. I want to recheck and tighten up the valve lash clearance a smidge too. I want to get a few more miles on it before I change anything though. Give it a chance for everything to settle in through a few heat cycles. For today, I'm happy though!! |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by DragBikeMike on 01/13/24 at 09:10:21 Runs good, looks good. My compliments on a job well done. Glad you stuck with it. |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 01/13/24 at 12:57:49 Thank you for all your help and patience, Mike!! And the encouraging words to keep me going! |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by Dave on 01/14/24 at 02:20:07 That bolt hole with the open bottom - I am glad DragBikeMike pointed that out.....I never paid attention to that before. I don't believe I have ever had an engine leak there - but I can see how it would happen. There are an awful lot of Savage engines with a layer of oil on that part of the head. I just put together an engine (on the bench), and I tried dropping JB weld down that hole with a thin wooden Qtip stem. It was not successful as it was just like that old game "operation" and I kept hitting the sides of the hole and getting the JBweld on the threads and not at the bottom of the hole. I cleaned of the threads and chose to apply a small amount of sealer around the hole and a dab inside the threads. (I use Hondabond4 on silver head covers as it blends in with the engine color better than black). |
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Title: Re: R&R Cylinder Head with Tech Assist Post by ThumperPaul on 01/14/24 at 05:58:37 Thanks Dave. I took another slightly longer ride yesterday. No smoke, no leak. I suspect I dribbled some oil when I fed some oil under the cam and up top through the valve inspection covers. Feeling relieved I sealed the head cover properly. I do still have some dripping oil on the alternator side by the front pulley. I replaced the oil ring on the starter before all this got started (it was a problem when I bought the bike). Och sent me a few o-rings of different sizes. The fatter medium sized one he sent, which worked for him after tapping the starter in with a hammer, wouldn’t allow me to get the starter shoved in and I didn’t want to use a hammer. I installed an o-ring that was the next best fit, but I think it’s still leaking a little. They want $9 plus shipping for the OEM o-ring! Looks like I need to cough up the money and buy it. It has a 34.7mm ID and it’s 2.1mm fat. Try finding that on the internet or your local hardware store! I played around with a couple standard SAE sizes, but I didn’t like how those fit or again, I couldn’t shove the starter in. You can find 34.7mm ID that are 3.5mm thick, but that 1.4mm difference makes a difference. Taking a hammer to is tempting, but I’m not lucky or brave enough to try it. |
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