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Finn Hammer's Savage (Read 1993 times)
FinnHammer
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Finn Hammer's Savage
11/05/23 at 09:17:15
 
All.
This is the thread where I will put the general progress of my Savage build. I use to do it like this, on forums, so that I have an archive of my work.
This forum is an increadible resource of information, the fact that I could find info on the carburettor fix for the lean idle and low needle range helped me to get the bike running well. For a short period, now it is inside the workshop, waiting s couple of mods.
The forum will save me a lot of grief due to the procedures outlined regarding the protusion of the cam tensioner, as seen in the attachment.
Now that the cover is off, I will also beef the clutch up to DR650 standards.
The oil pump gears will also get a reverse treatment.
Lancers Mikuni carburettor is ready on the shelf, and I am pondering how to weld a nice airbox for the accompanying filter.
A used, but good cylinder head is on the way, and I will try my hand on some porting work.
I have been studying flow benches recently, and it would appear to be not all that difficult to get started with some reasonable gear.
There is a good forum called flowbenchtech.com, where there is some really usefull information on the working of flow benches.
There is also a spreadsheet to calculate the size of the needed orifice plates to measure the flow rates.
https://www.flowbenchtech.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=73
I have learned that it is a good idea to make silicone rubber casts of the port you want to modify, and use it to create a plaster model of the head, and then try the modifications on the plaster model, before getting carried away and potentially ruining a perfectly good cylinder head in the process. I also imagine that getting the port shape out in the open, in the shape of a rubber plug, can give some intuitive input as to where it might be beneficial to alter it. It has been said somewhere, that the inlet tract should converge all the way from carburettor to valve seats.
This should all be keeping me busy for the coming very dark months up here at 56deg. lat.
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verslagen1
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Re: Finn Hammer's Savage
Reply #1 - 11/05/23 at 10:24:30
 
time to do something with that tensioner.   Wink
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FinnHammer
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Re: Finn Hammer's Savage
Reply #2 - 11/05/23 at 11:26:23
 
Yes, "something" has to be done. I beleive you have a mod, and I can replicate that in my workshop.
Something worries me, though: when the chain stretches, and the slack is taken up on the "idling" stretch of it, the cam timing must retard.
Have I seen another method where the leading (front)chain guide is used to take slack?
Hard to keep track of all the great tips on this site.
Cheers, Finn Hammer
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Re: Finn Hammer's Savage
Reply #3 - 11/05/23 at 13:27:08
 
FinnHammer wrote on 11/05/23 at 11:26:23:
Yes, "something" has to be done. I beleive you have a mod, and I can replicate that in my workshop.
Something worries me, though: when the chain stretches, and the slack is taken up on the "idling" stretch of it, the cam timing must retard.

yes, if I recall, .03"stretch=1*retard

Quote:
Have I seen another method where the leading (front)chain guide is used to take slack?

I have not seen a good method to bow the guide and I wouldn't trust bending it to remain bent under the forces it takes to stretch a chain. plus it will place additional wearing upon the guide.
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Re: Finn Hammer's Savage
Reply #4 - 11/05/23 at 16:40:30
 
When you are setting the bike up - you can make an adjustment if the cam timing is out of wack.  The number of teeth on the cam chain drive sprocket on the crank, and the number of splines on the crankshaft are not equal.  If you rotate the sprocket on the crankshaft and move the chain on the teeth you can make adjustment to the timing.  This is a violation of just using the factory marks......but it does work for those talented enough to fiddle with it.

There is a thread about how to do it.......maybe somebody can help us find it (was it Armen that invented this trick?).
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Re: Finn Hammer's Savage
Reply #5 - 11/07/23 at 02:07:05
 
"Something worries me, though: when the chain stretches, and the slack is taken up on the "idling" stretch of it, the cam timing must retard.
Have I seen another method where the leading (front)chain guide is used to take slack?"



Finn, IMO the chains don't wear out rapidly.  The slack chain problem results from the rear guide losing its arc.  This old post provides additional info.

http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1593671973/0#14

I agree that trying to tighten up the chain with the forward guide is a bad idea.  That's the drive side of the chain and it will impart an ungodly amount of force on the guide if you try and shove the guide into the chain.  Only use the rear guide to take up slack.

I personally like using a jack bolt to reestablish the arc in the rear guide.  It should be an easy job for you since you have a fabulous workshop and good skills.  The jack bolt gives you a lot of options for power mods.  I have been able to run cylinders as much as 3mm shorter than stock using the jack bolt.  Use it with an extended CCT and you will have all sorts of options for increasing compression, tightening quench clearance, etc.  I use the method Dave described to reestablish correct cam timing by reindexing the drive sprocket on the crankshaft.
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Re: Finn Hammer's Savage
Reply #6 - 11/07/23 at 02:22:44
 
I read:

Use it with an extended CCT and you will have all sorts of options for increasing compression, tightening quench clearance, etc.
 
I find this topic very interesting. What does CCT stand for?
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Re: Finn Hammer's Savage
Reply #7 - 11/07/23 at 04:20:06
 
zevenenergie wrote on 11/07/23 at 02:22:44:
 
I find this topic very interesting. What does CCT stand for?


Cam Chain Tensioner
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Re: Finn Hammer's Savage
Reply #8 - 11/07/23 at 08:34:13
 
Ok, this is cool, I learn something every day here.
The juggeling of the teeth on the cam chain reminds me of something we did on old WV Beatles based beach buggies back in Kenya in the seventies, to lower the rear end. Different amount of teeth in each end of the torsion bars, so advance 3 teeth on the inside and retard 2 teeth on the outside. Or the other way around, memory fails me.
Cheers, Finn Hammer
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Re: Finn Hammer's Savage
Reply #9 - 11/13/23 at 11:46:57
 
If one extra clutch plate is good, then 2 extra plates must be better.
The obvious way I see to make that possible is to change to thinner steel discs, which poses a couple of problems, as I see it.

The plates already chew and gnaw their way into the hub in a way that I think will lead to bad release action from the clutch over time. Making the discs thinner will increase this tendency. Instead, I would like to increase the contact surface between steel plate and clutch hub.

Some increase is possible by making discs that extend all the way (ex. clearance) to the bottom of the clutch (i miss words, the ridges that the discs index into) but a much better method would be to have the discs water jetted out of 3mm stock, then turned down one millimeter on each side, to form a one millimeter thick disc, with a 3 millimeter wide hub just small enough in diametre to be able to clear the inside diametre of the friction plates.

This wide hub will increase the contact area to the hub, and hopefully lead to smoother clutch releases. It is possible to manufacture, and I will have a go at it, to allow room for one more friction disc. The picture show a rendering of the proposed disc, on the hub .
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FinnHammer
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Re: Finn Hammer's Savage
Reply #10 - 11/13/23 at 11:48:38
 
For reference, here are some hubs off Ebay that all exibit various decrees of gnawing from the steel plates
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Re: Finn Hammer's Savage
Reply #11 - 11/13/23 at 11:56:03
 
Then there is the issue with the cam chain tensioner. Have a look at this tensioning setup, grabbed from a Facebook group, dealing the top part of car engines.
This is the cam tensioner from a Honda car. I am sure it will survive an engine reversal backfire without a hitch. Perhaps a sturdier, stiffer structure would be beneficial even in the Savage
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Re: Finn Hammer's Savage
Reply #12 - 11/13/23 at 11:58:11
 
Ok, end of rant today:

Inlet valve distance C-C 28mm so that is the biggest valves possible in the Savage.
Wouldn't it look snazzy with bronze seats?
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Re: Finn Hammer's Savage
Reply #13 - 11/13/23 at 12:18:35
 
The stock clutch works fine when it is in good shape and your engine is lightly modified......I had a 95mm Wiseco, Stage 3 cam, ported head, Mikuni Carb and good exhaust and it never slipped.  However - I had to let the clutch out completely and let it grab before I applied full power.  Letting out the clutch while applying power would create a situation where engagement was not instantaneous.

DragBikeMike has a long thread on beefing up the clutch.  Ultimately he developed a way we could add more plates by using a few clutch parts from the DR650 engine.  He and I have installed in and it works great!  You will need to get into the thread a few pages before you come into the DR650 conversation.
http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1615547049/0

You do need to get Sneezy's stronger clutch release cam.  My cam ultimately failed after 16,000 miles and ruined some DR650 pieces and I had to use some I had stocked up on.
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Re: Finn Hammer's Savage
Reply #14 - 11/13/23 at 19:46:58
 
Now that Honda chain guide is a work of art.  Yesssss!  Something like that would clearly resolve the issue, but alas, there isn't much room for a beefy guide like that.  Thanks for the pictures.  

While the jack bolt isn't nearly as trick, it is very effective at resolving the problem, plus it allows more options for adjustment.  Sounds to me like you are planning on some earth-rotating rear wheel power.  If you can manufacture those trick steels you will have a pretty unique clutch.  I'm curious how you intend to cut those plates.  Seems to me if you have the equipment and skills to make stepped-steels, you could probably manufacture a new hub out of steel instead of aluminum.  That might eliminate the need for the stepped steel plates.  You really do think outside the box Finn. Keep the ideas comin.

I second Dave's comment on the hybrid clutch.  It works pretty good and so far it's holding the power.  Don't try to eliminate the wave-washer assembly.  Leaving it out does add a small amount of additional friction surface, but the clutch action stinks without the wave-washer.  You can assemble a really good clutch with the old DR hub and an additional set of plates.  Add the Sneezy cam so that you can increase spring preload and it will hold quite a bit of power.  The early DR650 springs are a lot stiffer than the stockers.  Barnetts are moderately stiffer.  You need the Sneezy cam if you want to use stiffer springs.

I'm not sure how you arrived at 28mm for max intake valve diameter.  The stock engine comes equipped with 33mm intakes.  I increased mine to 34mm and it works pretty good.  I'm planning on trying 35mm intakes but I need to get some valve seat grinding equipment.  It's simply too hard to do the mod with hand driven carbide cutters.  
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