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What is a safe redline? (Read 388 times)
buster6315
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Re: What is a safe redline?
Reply #30 - 03/29/22 at 20:15:16
 
Try 30 hp @5400 & 34 torque @3400rpm
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« Last Edit: 03/30/22 at 12:18:44 by buster6315 »  
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DragBikeMike
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Re: What is a safe redline?
Reply #31 - 03/29/22 at 22:34:23
 
Armen: "So, the moral of the story is to make the bike work better at lower RPMs, not to raise the redline to the sky."

Yep, that's where the new Wiseco flat-top shines.  That sucker really sweetens up the middle of the range.  Part throttle performance is off the hook.  Problem is, the engine just keeps makin power well past 6K.  You need some good self discipline to resist the urge to keep stretchin it out.  I suspect it will pull like He11 all the way to destruction.

Don't overlook load.  That balancer assembly has to be beating its ball bearings to death, even at cruising speed.  Just imagine what it's doin when you amp up the speed 1500 rpm beyond what the designers intended.  And BMEP, it's gotta be 150% or more above what the the stocker develops.

But I'm a sick dude.  Can't help myself.  You wanna play you gotta pay. Wink
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LANCER
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Re: What is a safe redline?
Reply #32 - 03/30/22 at 02:53:55
 
Sick dude indeed...I understand the concept perfectly...you know how tendency’s are. 😎
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Armen
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Re: What is a safe redline?
Reply #33 - 03/30/22 at 06:34:55
 
The local Duc shop has a Dyno. Like most dyno folks, they fell in love with peak HP. Built some hot bikes. I have a 98 900SS, last year with carbs. They told me that I should use the FI 99 or later cams, more peak HP. Told them the last thing I cared about on the street was peak HP, that I’m all about mid-range.
Fast forward a few years and they build one of their guys a 900SS racer. After a while, they realize that mid range wins races, not peak HP.
I remember an interview with Don Tilley, who build the winningest 883 Sportsters in the class. He said the same thing-most folks worship at the altar of peak HP. Races are won by mid range acceleration.
Basically, you use the peak HP at the last part of the fastest part of the track. The rest of the time, its low and mid range.
While it’s nice to open up the powerband (one of my bikes only makes power between 2500 and 5500), I just don’t like revving the nuts of the motor. Not fun going down the road with the motor vibrating so much.
That, and having fragged my XL makes me a bit cautious about buzzing the bike to 8K.
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Re: What is a safe redline?
Reply #34 - 03/30/22 at 17:44:22
 
There is an old saying from the days they would publish HP numbers in the sales brochure.

HP sells cars.......torque wins races! Wink

I read that the goal is to get the most area under the torque curve on a dyno run.......and that is the engine that will perform the best in the real world.
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buster6315
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Re: What is a safe redline?
Reply #35 - 03/30/22 at 20:52:54
 
Torque is very satisfying indeed!  However, HP wins races. (drag)  Horse
power is calculated with the time element.
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DragBikeMike
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Re: What is a safe redline?
Reply #36 - 03/31/22 at 00:39:49
 
Armen, interesting that you bring up that old 883 class.  As I recall, that class instituted a rule on rev limiters.  The sanctioning body had the crews draw ignition modules from a hat (so to speak) prior to each race.  Seems that the rev limiters had a fairly large tolerance on the factory setting, so the crews started buying up a ton of modules and testing them until they found the one with the highest setting.  To circumvent the cherry picking the AMA instituted the luck-of-the-draw rule.  That extra 25 or 30 rpm before it bounced the limiter must have been a significant advantage.

In a class that tight, every teeny weeny bit helps.  It's pretty tough to do a lot with the power characteristics of a box-stock 883.  I think all they were allowed to change was exhaust, air filter, and jetting.  I believe shocks and a fork kit were allowed too.

I don't disagree.  An engine with a meaty mid-range is killer, and a lot easier to hustle around a road course.  BIG torque numbers also get the job done on a drag strip.  Anyone who has ever messed around with a power adder can attest to that.  Slap some nitrous on an engine and hit the squeeze button and you get max torque just off idle.  Makes your heart stop the first time you try it.  After that first hit you're hooked.  You're on the dark side and never goin back (until somethin in that motor gives up).

For street use, the focus should always be on healthy mid range.  But just look at this power curve.  It's one of my old dyno pulls with a DR cam.  The only reason Teddy shut it down was because he didn't wanna make a mess on his dyno.  It wasn't makin any more power past 6500 but it also wasn't droppin off much either.  All's I'm sayin is when you have an engine that delivers like this, it's hard to exercise self discipline.  You can hardly feel the thing nose over.  It's pullin just about as hard at 7500 as it is at 6500.  DANGER ZONE!  That's why its so much fun.
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Gary_in_NJ
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Re: What is a safe redline?
Reply #37 - 04/01/22 at 11:23:12
 
That's an amazing torque curve. 80% max torque between 2,900 and 6,900 rpm, and 90% torque between 4k & 6k.  Basically, power everywhere.
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justin_o_guy2
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Re: What is a safe redline?
Reply #38 - 04/01/22 at 12:11:40
 
DragBikeMike wrote on 03/29/22 at 22:34:23:
Armen: "So, the moral of the story is to make the bike work better at lower RPMs, not to raise the redline to the sky."

Yep, that's where the new Wiseco flat-top shines.  That sucker really sweetens up the middle of the range.  Part throttle performance is off the hook.  Problem is, the engine just keeps makin power well past 6K.  You need some good self discipline to resist the urge to keep stretchin it out.  I suspect it will pull like He11 all the way to destruction.

Don't overlook load.  That balancer assembly has to be beating its ball bearings to death, even at cruising speed.  Just imagine what it's doin when you amp up the speed 1500 rpm beyond what the designers intended.  And BMEP, it's gotta be 150% or more above what the the stocker develops.

But I'm a sick dude.  Can't help myself.  You wanna play you gotta pay. Wink



A question that has eaten on me for a long time is

Is there anything that can be done with that swinging weight to smooth it out?
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DragBikeMike
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Re: What is a safe redline?
Reply #39 - 04/02/22 at 11:20:28
 
"That's an amazing torque curve. 80% max torque between 2,900 and 6,900 rpm, and 90% torque between 4k & 6k.  Basically, power everywhere."

Great observation Gary.  It's sorta like an electric motor that vibrates a lot.  So much fun to ride at part throttle.  That was with the old S&S Super-E carb (Armen calls it "a trash can with a trap door").  For that pull, it was also struggling with a modified stock muffler.  I wish I had a dyno pull with the 97mm flat-top and a good free-flowing exhaust system.  I suspect the shape of the curve would be identical, just a lot further up the scale.

I'm workin on a post that summarizes the results of the latest teardown and inspection.  I've found a lot of interesting stuff related to the bearings.  It will tie in nicely with this discussion on the redline. Definitely supports the concept of confining your ops to a reasonable range of rpm.

Thanks for starting the discussion Stinkywheels.
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ohiomoto
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Re: What is a safe redline?
Reply #40 - 04/02/22 at 19:15:36
 
This bike is a turd, BUT...

It is a lot of fun to short shift it and any RPM.

DBM's dyno shows what's neat about this bike.  It has a lot of OXpower!
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Re: What is a safe redline?
Reply #41 - 04/04/22 at 21:40:18
 
"a trash can with a trap door"

This had me chuckling!!  Almost spit my bourbon out my nose!  Good reading after a week away, and then another week away after Thursday.  Love checking in on you guys after a trip.  Hopefully back at my motor after this next one. Excited to see what this motor has in store.
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