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NYT "Day of Rage" 40min. documentary of 1/6/21 (Read 359 times)
WebsterMark
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Re: NYT "Day of Rage" 40min. documentary of 1/6/21
Reply #60 - 08/24/21 at 10:42:30
 
Serowbot wrote on 08/24/21 at 07:33:29:
Webster will argue it's not a flood while he's up to his neck in water.

We saw months of ratcheting rhetoric about a stolen election and injustice, and a calling to arms rally on 1/6 led by Trump to "kick a$$, take our country back, stop the steal,and worse...
And then it happened.  No one was really surprised.  We saw it coming.
Now they're trying to call it just another tourist day.

We all saw it.  Gaslighting no longer works when there are a 1,000 visual records.
It was a failed effort by a disorganized group of inept fools, but the intent is clear.



Show me where Trump ask everybody to show up on January 6 armed.
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Re: NYT "Day of Rage" 40min. documentary of 1/6/21
Reply #61 - 08/24/21 at 10:48:00
 
If I announce I’m going to purchase General Motors and run it the right way, and I walk into their headquarters with my checkbook, no one would seriously think this is a legitimate purchase offer. It doesn’t matter how many times you or I may say that I’m gonna take over General motors, it’s simply not true. It’s an impossibility.

Likewise, a bunch of people that showed up at a Trump rally and got out-of-control and broke into the capital. There were a few people who had a little bit more grandiose plans in mind, but that does not make it an insurrection, again you can call an insurrection all you want but it had zero chance of success and the evidence was once they got inside with very little police presence they didn’t do anything. Why? Because they didn’t consider an insurrection either.

Stop calling it an insurrection

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Re: NYT "Day of Rage" 40min. documentary
Reply #62 - 08/24/21 at 13:12:15
 
There were a few people who had a little bit more grandiose plans in mind,
 
 So these people, who weren't taking selfies, might fall under insurrectionist.  I think more accurately defined as sedition for most as it was more inciting than acting, but lets just say insurrection for this one evaluation.

"Whoever incites, sets on foot, assists, or engages in any rebellion or insurrection against the authority of the United States or the law there, or gives aid or comfort thereto"

 How many people would it take to consider an event an "insurrection"?  Is there a percentage?  Like if 51% of total participants?  

 Could a small group, like The Proud Boys, or ANTIFA affiliates, if proven to have organized a pre-planned attempt to enter the Capitol and stop a due process of law, be considered an "insurrection"?

 I think sticking to the "two or more" provision is best, and then defining the actual actors, not an event as a whole.  As in if a group of 4 ANTIFA affiliates organize an attempt and act on it, to stop a Trump re-election, they are part of an insurrection.  The other 1200 people just complaining holding signs were protesters.

 Theoretically we could have multiple insurrections on the same day at the same event.  If Proud Boys and Oath Keepers acted in two groups of 6, separately, within the bounds of legal definition of "insurrection" then two insurrections happened that day.
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Re: NYT "Day of Rage" 40min. documentary of 1/6/21
Reply #63 - 08/24/21 at 14:11:22
 
So what was the uniting influence that made both actions occur on the same date?
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WebsterMark
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Re: NYT "Day of Rage" 40min. documentary
Reply #64 - 08/25/21 at 04:10:28
 
Eegore wrote on 08/24/21 at 13:12:15:
There were a few people who had a little bit more grandiose plans in mind,
 
 So these people, who weren't taking selfies, might fall under insurrectionist.  I think more accurately defined as sedition for most as it was more inciting than acting, but lets just say insurrection for this one evaluation.

"Whoever incites, sets on foot, assists, or engages in any rebellion or insurrection against the authority of the United States or the law there, or gives aid or comfort thereto"

 How many people would it take to consider an event an "insurrection"?  Is there a percentage?  Like if 51% of total participants?  

 Could a small group, like The Proud Boys, or ANTIFA affiliates, if proven to have organized a pre-planned attempt to enter the Capitol and stop a due process of law, be considered an "insurrection"?

 I think sticking to the "two or more" provision is best, and then defining the actual actors, not an event as a whole.  As in if a group of 4 ANTIFA affiliates organize an attempt and act on it, to stop a Trump re-election, they are part of an insurrection.  The other 1200 people just complaining holding signs were protesters.

 Theoretically we could have multiple insurrections on the same day at the same event.  If Proud Boys and Oath Keepers acted in two groups of 6, separately, within the bounds of legal definition of "insurrection" then two insurrections happened that day.


Then dozens, perhaps hundreds could have been charged with insurrection in Portland or LA or NYC on a hundred different nights this summer.

But despite their coordinated activity, fire bombing police stations and other government buildings. I would never think of that as an insurrection.
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WebsterMark
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Re: NYT "Day of Rage" 40min. documentary of 1/6/21
Reply #65 - 08/25/21 at 04:18:27
 
Serowbot wrote on 08/24/21 at 14:11:22:
So what was the uniting influence that made both actions occur on the same date?


Trump.
The single biggest mistake Trump ever made was a January 6 rally in Washington DC. Either he knew and wanted violent actions or he fell into the presidential bubble all presidents fall into a lost track of reality.
The other dumb mistake was thinking a military parade with tanks and soldiers walking down DC streets was a good idea.

But, as the FBI have stated, a very few and organized groups planned  to attack the capital. Some of those groups had FBI informants as members and serious allegations that they were in fact driving the discussions. I don’t know how truthful that is. I’m not sure anybody knows right now and I’m also not sure if we’ll ever know the absolute truth about that.

The phrase mob mentality exist for a reason. Those groups began chanting and rushing the capital other people caught up in the moment followed along. That’s how you got a couple of thousand people instead of a couple of dozen.

But even the organized groups had zero chance of success. Not a 1% chance of success. Zero % chance of success. You’re not going to take over the US capital and force senators to change their votes or to leave the building without weapons. Not sharpened flag poles but guns. Lots of guns.
This was not an insurrection
I could get a dozen people with our checkbooks and we could invade General motors board of directors meeting thinking we were going to buy out the majority share and take over. We might have more success with that and a few people with flag poles taking over the US government.
Stop calling January 6 and insurrection.
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Re: NYT "Day of Rage" 40min. documentary
Reply #66 - 08/25/21 at 05:55:10
 
Then dozens, perhaps hundreds could have been charged with insurrection in Portland or LA or NYC on a hundred different nights this summer.

 Yeah the ANTIFA did it too argument has been done, over and over.  Bobby broke more windows, I got it.  I would say the primary difference is the impact of a Presidential election versus a local election, or in the hundreds of nights no election was taking place.  A lot of this violence and vandalism happened with no Federal or State impact beyond the damage itself.

 

But despite their coordinated activity, fire bombing police stations and other government buildings. I would never think of that as an insurrection.

 Damaging a government building because you are pissed off at the local police has different intent than damaging a government building to take control of it and place new leadership within.

 So, to me, I would say intent has a lot to do with it.  Firebombing a police station won't get us a new President.

 The unique situation with Jan 6th is the intended removal of one President and the replacement of another.  This is why, to me, premeditation is a factor, versus just being there with like-minded people.  



But even the organized groups had zero chance of success. Not a 1% chance of success. Zero % chance of success. You’re not going to take over the US capital and force senators to change their votes or to leave the building without weapons. Not sharpened flag poles but guns. Lots of guns.

 I agree but I am not sure how the potential for success plays into defining an act. Like if I tried to steal a car by shoving a dime into the ignition that is still attempted grand theft.  I most likely wouldn't get as harsh of punishment as somebody using real tools that would work, but by definition, I still attempted a vehicle theft.


Stop calling January 6 and insurrection.

 Would that work if I told you to start calling it a partial insurrection?  
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« Last Edit: 08/25/21 at 07:43:40 by Eegore »  
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Re: NYT "Day of Rage" 40min. documentary
Reply #67 - 08/25/21 at 08:47:20
 
What difference does it make what I call it?
What difference does it make what you call it?
It is what it is.
It's being called an insurrection by politicians, courts, FBI and DOJ. That matters.
They decide when crimes reach a level to be defined as more than the sum of their parts.
When protest becomes criminal violence becomes insurrection.
That question has been pretty much answered.
The question now is did the President and others commit sedition in inciting it.

When you look at what he said, combined with other actions he took in trying to overturn the election, it's clear he did.  The combination of lies, threats, pressuring authorities, trying to manipulate courts, and inflaming the passion of his base, proves his intent to subvert the will of the people and overturn an election.
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WebsterMark
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Re: NYT "Day of Rage" 40min. documentary
Reply #68 - 08/25/21 at 10:22:06
 
Serowbot wrote on 08/25/21 at 08:47:20:
What difference does it make what I call it?
What difference does it make what you call it?
It is what it is.
It's being called an insurrection by politicians, courts, FBI and DOJ. That matters.
They decide when crimes reach a level to be defined as more than the sum of their parts.
When protest becomes criminal violence becomes insurrection.
That question has been pretty much answered.
The question now is did the President and others commit sedition in inciting it.

When you look at what he said, combined with other actions he took in trying to overturn the election, it's clear he did.  The combination of lies, threats, pressuring authorities, trying to manipulate courts, and inflaming the passion of his base, proves his intent to subvert the will of the people and overturn an election.


Because many politicians and bureaucrats including those in the FBI have the same distorted, hyper-partisan view that you have. That’s why it’s important to get the terms correct.

It was not an insurrection and Trump is not guilty of sedition. He’s guilty of being an idiot, I’ll give you that,  but not sedition.

This was a crazy riot that got out of control (not unprecedented ) and an overhyped partisan media saw yet another opportunity to tear Trump apart. Same as they did with the virus and we’re living with the consequences of that as well.

I’m right; you two and a bunch of partisan media hacks, bureaucrats, and leftist politicians are wrong.

I’m done with this. Seriously, done.
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Re: NYT "Day of Rage" 40min. documentary
Reply #69 - 08/25/21 at 11:21:02
 
I’m right; you two and a bunch of partisan media hacks, bureaucrats, and leftist politicians are wrong.

 Except I agreed with you in part about the insurrection terms being used to reference the whole group, multiple times, but pretend I am saying this was an insurrection.  If only I had said this in my very first post:

So I stand by my assessment.  Some people were protesters.  Some people were violent and assaulted the police.  Trying to say all those people are armed insurrectionists is wrong.  Saying they all went in after the police pulled back barricades and took selfies an committed no assaults is wrong.



 However you won't articulate anything more than ANTIFA did it too.  How many times do you need to hear that comparative logic doesn't answer why you think nobody there was part of an insurrection.  I ask a few questions and you act like I am saying everyone is an insurrectionist.

 I do not agree that all people were unarmed.  Why would they be considered unarmed?

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Re: NYT "Day of Rage" 40min. documentary of 1/6/21
Reply #70 - 08/25/21 at 18:12:07
 
Boston, 1773, North American British colonies.
You are a cobbler and have a Wife and some kids.
You go to the Pub once and a while, play some darts, sing some songs, perhaps some cards.
Have some neibours over on Sat, go to church on Sunday.
  You make a good living, life is good.

However,
King George is demanding More and More Taxes for the shoes you make.
(and the Tea you drink)
which means less and less income for you and your family.

At that time their were, basically, two thoughts of the people/colonist.
One was, “… King George is Wonderfull …”
The other was, ‘ … A Free Nation …”

Very Clear that the tt/clones, and some others,
would say, “Long Live King George !!!!!”


Now, 248 years later.
You are going to work every day,
yet the people around you are getting MORE money
      to stay home.
The prices of everything is skyrocketing.
Yet, (the tt/clones, and some others), say:
(to the like)

“… Ding-Dong and HO-HO are WONDERFUL …”:
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Ben Franklin once said: "If you give up a freedom, for the sake of security, you will have neither".
Which is More TRUE, today, than yesterday.('06, S-40, Stock) well, mostly .
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Re: NYT "Day of Rage" 40min. documentary of 1/6/21
Reply #71 - 09/27/21 at 14:14:02
 
Shorter but more accurate documentary.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmJ0HDbZi5M
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What happened?

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Re: NYT "Day of Rage" 40min. documentary of 1/6/21
Reply #72 - 09/28/21 at 08:11:43
 
Someone finally pried the video away from the prosecution. Ohh ,horrors! The people were ambling in,, looking around, not the frenzied ,angry people we were told.
The ability of some people to believe the Mostly Peaceful riots, real riots, with injuries, destruction and death, were okay, and people walking around in the Capitol were actually trying to overthrow the government is taxing my mind. And how they are being treated is criminal.
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The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.- Edmund Burke.
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Re: NYT "Day of Rage" 40min. documentary
Reply #73 - 09/29/21 at 07:43:35
 
Eegore wrote on 08/24/21 at 13:12:15:
" ...

"[b]Whoever incites, sets on foot, assists, or engages in any rebellion or insurrection against the authority of the United States or the law there, or gives aid or comfort thereto
"[/b]
... "


So the people that created,
occupied, and,
kept out any police or authority,
in the numerous
autonomous zones.
are not covered under the same law ?

The stealing/looting all across this Nation,
is not covered under the same law ?

The burning/destroying of property,
in numerous Cities,
is not covered by the same law?

The law that  Eegore said,
was the law governing the Capital Protest ?

"Whoever incites,
sets on foot, assists,
or engages
in any rebellion or insurrection
against the authority of the United States
or the law there,
or gives aid or comfort thereto"


OK  Got it !


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Ben Franklin once said: "If you give up a freedom, for the sake of security, you will have neither".
Which is More TRUE, today, than yesterday.('06, S-40, Stock) well, mostly .
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What happened?

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Re: NYT "Day of Rage" 40min. documentary of 1/6/21
Reply #74 - 09/29/21 at 09:27:11
 
Unless you're a violent, riotous army of lefties.
You Know our law enforcement, from top to bottom, LIVE to apply the law to everyone, equally.


Full disclosure
I had to stop and regain my composure three times to get That buncha bullshit typed.

You Do realize that there are people who ACTUALLY believe that the riots, destroyed businesses, injured and killed people, are insignificant..
The Mission of putting forward the absolute delusion that blacks are systematically hunted and killed Because they are black, and blacks are disproportionately killed by cops, in spite of the statistics that are not in agreement..

The instigators of 1/6 ?? How many were lefties in drag? Pretending to be Trump supporters?
Can you say
False Flag?

Who is better off today?

I have been seeing reports of

Biden supporters walking away..


Phhhht,, he HAD no support. Stolen election.
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The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.- Edmund Burke.
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