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/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Politics, Religion (Tall Table) >> NYT "Day of Rage" 40min. documentary of 1/6/21 /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1625158929 Message started by Serowbot on 07/01/21 at 10:02:09 |
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Title: NYT "Day of Rage" 40min. documentary of 1/6/21 Post by Serowbot on 07/01/21 at 10:02:09 https://www.nytimes.com/video/us/politics/100000007606996/capitol-riot-trump-supporters.html?action=click>ype=vhs&version=vhs-heading&module=vhs®ion=title-area&cview=true&t=11 k>ype=vhs&version=vhs-heading&module=vhs®ion=title-area&cview=true&t=11[/media] |
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Title: Re: NYT "Day of Rage" 40min. documentary of 1/6/21 Post by WebsterMark on 07/01/21 at 10:22:49 Before I waste time on this and I assumed you watched it, does it show the police moving the barricades back early on when protestors began arriving? Does it show the FBI agents and informants who were embedded? Does it show the vast majority posing for photos of themselves inside the Capitol who had no intention of doing anything worse than trespassing? |
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Title: Re: NYT "Day of Rage" 40min. documentary of 1/6/21 Post by WebsterMark on 07/01/21 at 10:30:59 I’m 12 minutes in. Looks like Portland so far. |
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Title: Re: NYT "Day of Rage" 40min. documentary of 1/6/21 Post by Serowbot on 07/01/21 at 10:35:49 What it shows me, will be very different than what it shows you, I'm sure. ...but I think it's worth watching. |
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Title: Re: NYT "Day of Rage" 40min. documentary of 1/6/21 Post by WebsterMark on 07/01/21 at 10:52:18 I’m 30 minutes in and have to go out for a while. Sure, it’s a one side documentary like all documentaries. It was, as a said, an awful and stupid thing they did. An actual insurrection? No. Prosecute them as deserved. Stop making them into something their not. And by the way, they were right. You did steal the election but this wasn’t the way to go about it. And Trump was a fool to have that rally and I said so at the time. |
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Title: Re: NYT "Day of Rage" 40min. documentary of 1/6/21 Post by T And T Garage on 07/01/21 at 11:40:25 It was violent, it was an insurrection and it was predicated on a lie that the election was stolen. Anyone who believes otherwise is an ignorant a$$hole. |
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Title: Re: NYT "Day of Rage" 40min. documentary of 1/6/21 Post by Serowbot on 07/01/21 at 12:08:50 It is one-sided in that it shows the violence, but showing moments when there wasn't violence disproves nothing. That's like showing a dog that bites not biting. |
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Title: Re: NYT "Day of Rage" 40min. documentary of 1/6/21 Post by WebsterMark on 07/01/21 at 14:43:10 6B757A7B766B706D1F0 wrote:
Anyone who blindly believes what he’s told by authorities despite genuine questions is an emasculated pu$$y. |
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Title: Re: NYT "Day of Rage" 40min. documentary Post by T And T Garage on 07/01/21 at 17:07:02 350700111607102F031009620 wrote:
Anyone who blindly believes what he’s told by authorities despite genuine questions is an emasculated pu$$y.[/quote] I agree. That's why I gleen my information from several sources. And as to 1/6, I watched it unfold on live TV and looked at the footage from that day. No one's "telling" me anything. It's reality layed out in front of you. |
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Title: Re: NYT "Day of Rage" 40min. documentary of 1/6/21 Post by WebsterMark on 07/01/21 at 18:23:40 That's why I gleen my information from several sources. Sure you do. |
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Title: Re: NYT "Day of Rage" 40min. documentary of 1/6/21 Post by T And T Garage on 07/02/21 at 07:06:08 112324353223340B27342D460 wrote:
Whether or not you believe me is of no concern to me. I mean, it's not like I welched on a bet or anything.... |
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Title: Re: NYT "Day of Rage" 40min. documentary of 1/6/21 Post by WebsterMark on 07/02/21 at 08:55:07 You don’t. Here’s the thing: since leftist domination the news and entertainment industries, I can’t escape them. And unless you’re in parts of Texas, you’re never going to run into Fox News on an airport TV. So you get all your news and info from a single point of view while I by default, get both sides. And that allegation you made has been dealt with and disproven. |
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Title: Re: NYT "Day of Rage" 40min. documentary Post by T And T Garage on 07/02/21 at 21:04:44 182A2D3C3B2A3D022E3D244F0 wrote:
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Title: Re: NYT "Day of Rage" 40min. documentary Post by Eegore on 07/07/21 at 07:45:13 I can't believe with the amount of video and audio footage of people throwing objects, spraying chemical, punching etc. that anyone can say this was exclusively a group of people walking in unobstructed taking selfies. The radio communications alone show there was a degree of organization among some, and only some, exclusively the word "some" and definitely NOT the word "all". I can not stress enough that only a portion of the people were organized and to describe a limited number I use the word "some". Police did pull back some barriers. Again only the word "some" in exclusivity, with the exemption of all other known words. There were 8 breaches. This idea that police let people in at all 8 locations is inaccurate - there is ample video proof of this. Now I look at the people there and see everything from an older guy in a blue jacket and jeans to a group of men in riot style gear, paramilitary garb carrying objects like bats and bear spray. These men if they broke into your home would be considered armed, but for some yet undefined reason they are considered not armed only in this one location at this one time. I don't think the guy in the blue jacket was an insurrectionist. I think the guy in paramilitary gear spraying police with bear spray is. Not exclusively based off that action, but the postings where he says they are going to "stop the vote" is indicative of one trying to alter who is in charge of the Nation. So I stand by my assessment. Some people were protesters. Some people were violent and assaulted the police. Trying to say all those people are armed insurrectionists is wrong. Saying they all went in after the police pulled back barricades and took selfies an committed no assaults is wrong. Why exactly should the guy swinging the hockey stick at police be absolved from an assault charge? An argument besides saying ANTIFA gets away with it would be nice because we all know that is wrong too. |
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Title: Re: NYT "Day of Rage" 40min. documentary Post by WebsterMark on 07/07/21 at 10:39:29 514F40414C514A57250 wrote:
[/quote] Those allegations are false and have been dealt with. |
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Title: Re: NYT "Day of Rage" 40min. documentary of 1/6/21 Post by WebsterMark on 07/07/21 at 11:00:47 Why exactly should the guy swinging the hockey stick at police be absolved from an assault charge? I certainly never said absolved. Charge him in exactly the same manner the two guys swinging a 2x4 at the old lady during one of those mostly peaceful protest. I’m fine with that. Dumb$hit shouldn’t have been swinging a hockey stick. But at its core, Jan 6 was the same as the attacks on The White House after George Floyd and invading the Senate during Kavanaugh hearings. There’s a difference in scale and level “of success “ but that’s all. Leftist and their media partners condoning, encouraging and participating in violence all summer share blame for Jan 6. And Trump does too. He acted stupidity and showed to me the bubble that encompasses Presidents got him too. He lost perspective. It was a protest that got out of hand. If you investigated the dozens of antifa and BLM riots (or the Kavanaugh hearings) under the same microscope used to investigate Jan 6th, you’d no doubt find conspiratorial emails, plans, diagrams etc…and a bias media could make an armed insurrection case. You don’t think there was coordination between groups as the targeted which Senators could be flipped? Sure there was. Now just imagine the right with the same partnership with the news and entertainment culture as the left has now. You be talking about the Supreme Court Justice insurrection…… |
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Title: Re: NYT "Day of Rage" 40min. documentary of 1/6/21 Post by Eegore on 07/07/21 at 12:20:55 It was a protest that got out of hand. For some. Other's planned for weeks to do this. They purchased gear, had meeting, practiced door breaching etc. If you investigated the dozens of antifa and BLM riots (or the Kavanaugh hearings) under the same microscope used to investigate Jan 6th, you’d no doubt find conspiratorial emails, plans, diagrams etc…and a bias media could make an armed insurrection case. I agree there was a degree of planning here as well. Not sure if SCOTUS, to me, is insurrection material. You don’t think there was coordination between groups as the targeted which Senators could be flipped? Sure there was. Now just imagine the right with the same partnership with the news and entertainment culture as the left has now. You be talking about the Supreme Court Justice insurrection…… Same as before, I don't think insurrection and SCOTUS are necessarily compatible. It's like saying there was a Wal-Mart insurrection when they killed the owners and Board of Directors and took over Wal-Mart. My understanding is insurrection is an assault to take over control, or alter control of the Nation. Most everyone on Jan 6th does not meet that criteria. |
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Title: Re: NYT "Day of Rage" 40min. documentary of 1/6/21 Post by WebsterMark on 07/07/21 at 14:27:24 We’ll just have to disagree and leave it at that. |
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Title: Re: NYT "Day of Rage" 40min. documentary of 1/6/21 Post by WebsterMark on 07/19/21 at 06:20:18 “Today, Paul Hodgkins will be the first 1/6 defendant sentenced on a felony guilty plea. He engaged no violence. His crime: entered the Capitol wearing a Trump t-shirt, held a Trump flag, took a selfie with Q Shaman. Prosecutors want 18 months in prison:” |
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Title: Re: NYT "Day of Rage" 40min. documentary Post by Eegore on 07/19/21 at 06:53:43 "They also noted how he boarded a bus in his hometown of Tampa bound for a Jan. 6 Trump rally carrying rope, protective goggles and latex gloves in a backpack." Just got caught up in the peaceful event, no premeditation, didn't expect violence at all. He always carries that stuff. Even though his own words indicate otherwise. Oh yeah, using the court case to make my assessment is Academic and doesn't matter. I should let someone else assess for me, they won't leave out anything. |
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Title: Re: NYT "Day of Rage" 40min. documentary of 1/6/21 Post by WebsterMark on 07/19/21 at 07:25:12 Yep, let’s put him in jail for 18 months because he’s a political prisoner. Those who attacked White House and came from long distances carrying items to throw at police? Nothing because it was politically acceptable to the media/Democrats/DOJ so no investigations were launched. |
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Title: Re: NYT "Day of Rage" 40min. documentary Post by Eegore on 07/19/21 at 08:34:27 Yeah Billy brought more rocks. Let's keep on that train to nowhere as if anyone here is saying ANTIFA gets a free pass. It's not fair, it is not being equally enforced. So does that mean everyone gets a free pass now? Ignore what this guy who went to trial, and by his own words outlined why he took those items? Ignore that because of garbage private news networks? I know a guy that got away with shooting his girlfriend. So now nobody can be prosecuted for shooting their girlfriend. |
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Title: Re: NYT "Day of Rage" 40min. documentary Post by WebsterMark on 07/19/21 at 11:25:56 6C4C4E465B4C290 wrote:
That’s a ridiculous comparison and beneath you. |
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Title: Re: NYT "Day of Rage" 40min. documentary of 1/6/21 Post by Eegore on 07/19/21 at 13:23:34 It's the same thing. You are saying ANTIFA got away with committing crimes. I am saying nobody should get away with crimes. I get that it's not fair, but I think expecting me to ignore some parts of this guys pre-event planning because ANTIFA got a free pass is ridiculous. Other criminal activity is the defense here? My cousin was involved in a hit and run with no injuries and he was never prosecuted, so now nobody should be prosecuted. |
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Title: Re: NYT "Day of Rage" 40min. documentary of 1/6/21 Post by WebsterMark on 07/30/21 at 04:38:27 Good article. https://thefederalist.com/2021/07/29/report-reveals-shocking-double-standards-for-bringing-u-s-rioters-to-justice/ |
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Title: Re: NYT "Day of Rage" 40min. documentary of 1/6/21 Post by Eegore on 07/30/21 at 05:37:37 The actual report. https://majorcitieschiefs.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/MCCA-Report-on-the-2020-Protest-and-Civil-Unrest.pdf Remember nobody on Jan 6th should be considered armed so the report is fundamentally flawed as it compares humans armed with guns, lasers, and arson material with unarmed humans carrying hockey sticks, batons, and flagpoles. Overall I agree with the content. The only thing I do contest is the perception that the US POTUS election process is equal to a City Hall. It absolutely should be. But it, at this time, is not when it comes to funding and allocation of law enforcement. There will obviously be more enforcement of violations at the US Capitol for an election process than a State protest or even criminal activity at the White House during non-election event timelines. I think there are multiple factors for this, including mainstream media, but also international perception and availability of resource. |
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Title: Re: NYT "Day of Rage" 40min. documentary of 1/6/21 Post by WebsterMark on 08/20/21 at 09:35:36 Can one person with a sharpen pencil in their backpack be called an insurrectionist? Apparently. The FBI has found scant evidence that the January 6 attack on the U.S. Capitol was the result of an organized plot to overturn the presidential election result, according to four current and former law enforcement officials |
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Title: Re: NYT "Day of Rage" 40min. documentary of 1/6/21 Post by Eegore on 08/20/21 at 10:51:16 Can one person with a sharpen pencil in their backpack be called an insurrectionist? Apparently. On that evidence alone? Weird that schoolkids everywhere are insurrectionists now. |
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Title: Re: NYT "Day of Rage" 40min. documentary Post by Serowbot on 08/20/21 at 11:08:19 A car,.. is a deadly weapon in the hands of one with malicious intent. Imagine a schoolchild with a sharpened pencil in her rucksack going to school,.. then imagine someone with a sharpened pencil in the waistband of their trunks in a public swimming pool. Now consider,... why would anyone sharpen the tip of a flagpole? Why?... Can you add 2+2 ? |
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Title: Re: NYT "Day of Rage" 40min. documentary of 1/6/21 Post by WebsterMark on 08/20/21 at 12:39:45 Yep, a few sharpened flagpole makes for an insurrection. |
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Title: Re: NYT "Day of Rage" 40min. documentary of 1/6/21 Post by Eegore on 08/20/21 at 12:51:00 You don't need to have any flagpoles to be part of an insurrection. You also do not, ever, need to have guns to be armed. Lets not use actual words and actual law, let's just make up anything we want and then blame CNN/FOX for reporting it wrong. I don't know what Webstermark is referring to as he won't provide reference, but I highly doubt anyone carrying a sharpened pencil will now be considered an insurrectionist. Of course using bear spray on someone isn't an armed assault either. |
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Title: Re: NYT "Day of Rage" 40min. documentary of 1/6/21 Post by Serowbot on 08/20/21 at 13:41:31 As an aside,... I was surprised to learn that "Bear spray" is actually very diluted pepper spray, although it sprays with more volume and power. It's diluted so as to discourage the animal rather than causing it possible harm. Most people buying it don't know that and think they are kicking a$$... Au contraire mon amie. |
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Title: Re: NYT "Day of Rage" 40min. documentary of 1/6/21 Post by Eegore on 08/20/21 at 14:15:05 Yeah I always thought that was funny too. Anyone doing their research would use hornet spray. |
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Title: Re: NYT "Day of Rage" 40min. documentary of 1/6/21 Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/20/21 at 14:29:51 The Day of RAGE!!! You mean when they blocked the exits and fire bombed the precinct in a Mostly Peaceful protest? |
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Title: Re: NYT "Day of Rage" 40min. documentary of 1/6/21 Post by Serowbot on 08/20/21 at 15:49:07 Mostly peaceful is different than insurrection. Precinct window breaking is different than seige of the US Capital Building. The difference between running over a rabbit and hanging VP Pence. |
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Title: Re: NYT "Day of Rage" 40min. documentary of 1/6/21 Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/20/21 at 16:28:11 I know you believe you actually have a point.. Because Lefty |
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Title: Re: NYT "Day of Rage" 40min. documentary of 1/6/21 Post by WebsterMark on 08/21/21 at 05:02:43 6670677A62777A61150 wrote:
Let me finish that for you truthfully. Mostly peaceful is different than insurrection because ……the mostly peaceful protesters are more likely democratic political party voters so that’s the difference. |
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Title: Re: NYT "Day of Rage" 40min. documentary of 1/6/21 Post by Serowbot on 08/21/21 at 08:30:00 I get it,.. there is violence on both sides. The difference is, Antifa/Blm are protesting injustice,... or from your point of view they want to bust heads and break things. Protest is a protected right. But, the MAGA riot at the capital was intending to disrupt or preferably prevent the function of the US election process. That is a crime in itself, with or without violence. Insurgence is a federal crime. You can't equate the two. Both may have criminal, punishable violence, but only one had violence intended to disrupt or overthrow an election. One is unruliness the other is treason. |
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Title: Re: NYT "Day of Rage" 40min. documentary of 1/6/21 Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/21/21 at 09:42:45 Aaand, unreasonable.. Totally,, And pointless to even try.. The dishonest nature of the left destroys any hope of real conversation. Insurrection my aching ass. No recollection of the Cavanaugh hearing, screaming leftists beating on doors? The injustice the mostly peaceful ones were pisstawf about? WHAT? Saint George of Floyd, who I initially said was murdered, Died because he ate a buttload of drugs apparently shoved some up his butt,the coroner NOTED the eyeballs didn't have the hemoraging evident when someone is choked. The statistics don't support the notion that cops are hunting black people. You believe things that are not true.. Like Trump supporters do whatever he says. And you believe Trump supporters are the ones who are not getting the shot.. And TRUMP is THE REASON they exist And he Say Take the shot.. So, which mistaken TRUTH are you going to change? I'm betting on Neither one. |
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Title: Re: NYT "Day of Rage" 40min. documentary of 1/6/21 Post by Serowbot on 08/21/21 at 11:55:20 George Floyd was murdered. 2 autopsies and a trial say so. Trump supporters are dying. They reject vaccines, masks, and distancing. Red states are in crisis. Fox News just promoted horse worming medicine as a cure. Conservative governors are banning mask mandates. Trump doesn't need to say anything,... his silence is deafening. |
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Title: Re: NYT "Day of Rage" 40min. documentary Post by Eegore on 08/21/21 at 16:07:50 "Saint George of Floyd, who I initially said was murdered, Died because he ate a buttload of drugs apparently shoved some up his butt,the coroner NOTED the eyeballs didn't have the hemoraging evident when someone is choked." According one of three reports that all concur: The combined effects of Mr. Floyd being restrained by the police, his underlying health conditions and any potential intoxicants in his system likely contributed to his death. Intoxicants Health conditions Restrained Why people want to say only one thing can kill this guy has to be deflection. If I am speeding in a car, drunk, wreck my car and bleed to death because I have low platelets did I die from speed, alcohol or blood loss? All three. In that specific situation all three occurred so all three contributed to my death. If someone ran over and kneeled on my neck there would be a 4th contributing factor. |
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Title: Re: NYT "Day of Rage" 40min. documentary of 1/6/21 Post by WebsterMark on 08/21/21 at 16:44:58 It was not an insurrection. |
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Title: Re: NYT "Day of Rage" 40min. documentary Post by Eegore on 08/21/21 at 16:50:39 It was not an insurrection. It was an insurrection. See how that works yet? By your definition they need guns to be armed, so hockey stick guy was unarmed when he hit people with that hockey stick. This makes me wonder how you define insurrection. I mean in a way other than saying other people did it too. How do you define vandalism? By saying if Billy is a vandal, Bobby is also a vandal because he broke more windows. So I know what you think is vandalism, but not how you get there. I posted the actual written laws but lets not use those, let's just say CNN/FOX wrote the narrative. |
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Title: Re: NYT "Day of Rage" 40min. documentary of 1/6/21 Post by WebsterMark on 08/23/21 at 05:19:07 It doesn’t work that way. Why? Because you are wrong. It was not an insurrection. Also, saw an interesting take today. We had thousands of troops sleeping in parking garages for months around the Capitol for no good reason, but pulled troops out before US citizens were evacuated? |
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Title: Re: NYT "Day of Rage" 40min. documentary Post by Serowbot on 08/23/21 at 09:41:43 We should have commandeered the Trump DC Hotel and put the soldiers up there for months. It only seems fair... What a shame Trump didn't volunteer it. :-? |
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Title: Re: NYT "Day of Rage" 40min. documentary of 1/6/21 Post by Eegore on 08/23/21 at 11:02:57 It doesn’t work that way. Why? Because you are wrong. It was not an insurrection. Incorrect. you are wrong. It was an insurrection. See. Anyone can do that. Anyone can say anything, without reference or evidence and say someone else is wrong by ignoring the evidence they provide. I placed actual law here as my reference for the term insurrection, and the term "armed". I cross referenced it with actual case law. You still don't provide a reason why hockey stick guy should be considered unarmed in court other than on this day, at this location, people need guns to be armed. You don't think maybe that assessment is wrong? How many people do you really think will accept that hockey stick guy was unarmed? "We had thousands of troops sleeping in parking garages for months around the Capitol for no good reason, but pulled troops out before US citizens were evacuated?" That's like saying a football team won the Super bowl but a baseball team didn't win the World Series. Sure it's the military, and it's good vs bad decisions, but totally different teams with totally different missions in totally different locations. |
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Title: Re: NYT "Day of Rage" 40min. documentary of 1/6/21 Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/23/21 at 11:31:56 Hmm,the same FBI you leftists have championed are now saying Nope Not organized, not insurrection, The VIDEO of guards fist bumping the scary government overthrowing crazies might be hard to explain in court,, kinda like them holding doors open, but, live in the delusion,, not my job to repair the minds of those who drank the koolaid. The same people who chant Follow the science Tell me a man can be a woman if he wants to. Phhhht.. |
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Title: Re: NYT "Day of Rage" 40min. documentary Post by Eegore on 08/23/21 at 14:46:24 "The VIDEO of guards fist bumping the scary government overthrowing crazies might be hard to explain in court," And the VIDEO of the police being dragged down the stairs? Or the VIDEO of the man spraying Bear Spray? "kinda like them holding doors open, but, live in the delusion" Kinda like pretending the VIDEO of the man with the hockey stick wasn't armed or hitting anyone? Hockey stick man was unarmed and only taking selfies. Delusion maybe? Bottom line is there was a mix of activities over a period of time in multiple locations. This is no different than your claim that one high school student telling you "how it is" is representative of the millions of high school kids out there. One event does not dictate that all events are equal. Anyone saying all participants are insurrectionists is wrong. Anyone saying nobody was an insurrectionist is wrong. Why can't we just be adults about this and say each human is responsible for their own actions? Billy is disciplined for breaking one window, Bobby for breaking 5 windows, and Brad for watching isn't disciplined at all. |
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Title: Re: NYT "Day of Rage" 40min. documentary of 1/6/21 Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/23/21 at 16:16:24 The FBI have decided Not insurrection |
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Title: Re: NYT "Day of Rage" 40min. documentary of 1/6/21 Post by Eegore on 08/23/21 at 17:16:24 "The FBI have decided Not insurrection" The FBI stated that it was not centrally coordinated. Which is something I have said all along. What I have been saying is that it is wrong to say everyone there was an insurrectionist, and also wrong to say nobody was. It is wrong to say people planned to overthrow the government and also wrong to say people "only" took selfies. This is why I said individuals could be charged with sedition, or insurrection, but not the event as a whole. Some pre-planned, most did not. Chances of seditious conspiracy being charged are slim to none, which is fine. But to challenge manipulation by providing manipulation is just plain nonsense. If that guy is lying why fight it with more lies, just use truth, use facts. |
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Title: Re: NYT "Day of Rage" 40min. documentary of 1/6/21 Post by WebsterMark on 08/23/21 at 19:03:17 Has anyone been charged with insurrection? |
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Title: Re: NYT "Day of Rage" 40min. documentary of 1/6/21 Post by Eegore on 08/23/21 at 20:19:38 "Has anyone been charged with insurrection?" No. It is highly unlikely anyone would. As I stated before those are hard charges to stick. At most people will get conspiracy charges when relating to insurrection or sedition law. 40 cases, that I know of, are charged with conspiracy. Most others are similar to trespassing, also some with assault, or things like "corruptly obstructing, influencing, or impeding an official proceeding, or attempting to do so." All those unarmed people (50 +) are wrongly charged with "using a deadly or dangerous weapon or causing serious bodily injury to an officer", because at this one event on this one day it required guns to be "armed" and they were only taking selfies. Obviously it makes much more sense to consider everyone there as an individual and instead we should charge all of them as insurrectionists ordered by Trump to destroy the acting US Government and place him back into power. Both of those make sense right? |
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Title: Re: NYT "Day of Rage" 40min. documentary of 1/6/21 Post by WebsterMark on 08/24/21 at 05:03:15 Join the cool kids and call it an insurrection. Fine. Go ahead. If there was an large, armed group who had realistic plans or actually did have arms, and took control with hostages and demands to stop the certification process and demand Trump be left in power, I’d agree with you, it was an insurrection. But it wasn’t. It was a bunch of wound up, pissed off people tired of being $hit on who watched groups rip cities apart all summer, who got way out of control. That’s it. That’s all it was. It wasn’t an insurrection. |
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Title: Re: NYT "Day of Rage" 40min. documentary of 1/6/21 Post by Eegore on 08/24/21 at 06:04:13 Join the cool kids and call it an insurrection. Fine. Go ahead. I already clarified, using law, that I do not think it was an insurrection. I am saying that using "No it wasn't!" to argue "It was!" is a futile exercise. If you want to claim on this one day, at this one location people need guns to be considered armed, how are you getting there? Why are bear spray guy or hockey stick guy considered unarmed? Why would anyone with all that video evidence say they only took selfies? Pissed off or not, organized or not, we do not need to be changing definitions to suit the event, then use CNN/FOX and ANTIFA as justification. This is what this thread looks like: It was an insurrection. No it wasn't. It was! It was not! It was! No it wasn't! |
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Title: Re: NYT "Day of Rage" 40min. documentary of 1/6/21 Post by WebsterMark on 08/24/21 at 06:37:31 Yes, in today’s world, you need firearms to be considered an armed insurrection. Sure, 300 years ago, sharpened flagpoles were a serious weapon. But a bunch of people trying to take over the capital with homemade blunt weapons, bear spray, slingshots is hardly a serious attack. If Ashley Babbitt had a sharpen flag pole in her hand, it wouldn’t have done much good. She still would be dead. |
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Title: Re: NYT "Day of Rage" 40min. documentary of 1/6/21 Post by Serowbot on 08/24/21 at 07:33:29 Webster will argue it's not a flood while he's up to his neck in water. We saw months of ratcheting rhetoric about a stolen election and injustice, and a calling to arms rally on 1/6 led by Trump to "kick a$$, take our country back, stop the steal,and worse... And then it happened. No one was really surprised. We saw it coming. Now they're trying to call it just another tourist day. We all saw it. Gaslighting no longer works when there are a 1,000 visual records. It was a failed effort by a disorganized group of inept fools, but the intent is clear. |
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Title: Re: NYT "Day of Rage" 40min. documentary Post by Eegore on 08/24/21 at 07:55:43 Yes, in today’s world, you need firearms to be considered an armed insurrection I again challenge anyone to find a legal way to get this done. Not CNN/FOX as justification, but actual law. I will pay for it under the terms I indicated before. This is an example of changing the definition of words to fit your narrative. Armed is armed. Not armed is armed except if combined with this other word. It wasn't an armed insurrection because it wasn't an insurrection at all makes much more sense than saying it wasn't an armed insurrection because there were no guns. If I commit an armed assault with a hockey stick and later it is proven it was self-defense nobody goes and says I was unarmed. Why would they? "Sure, 300 years ago, sharpened flagpoles were a serious weapon. But a bunch of people trying to take over the capital with homemade blunt weapons, bear spray, slingshots is hardly a serious attack." I agree that the weapons are not ones capable of high injury/murder rate per minute. I do however wonder how you can acknowledge "homemade blunt weapons, bear spray, slingshots" and also say they had no weapons at all. He had bear spray, and also had no bear spray. That's your argument? "If Ashley Babbitt had a sharpen flag pole in her hand, it wouldn’t have done much good. She still would be dead." Yeah anyone who has guns pointed at them and are told not to enter an area can expect to be shot. By your logic if Ashley Babbitt had a sharpened flagpole in her hand - she had nothing in her hand. |
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Title: Re: NYT "Day of Rage" 40min. documentary of 1/6/21 Post by Eegore on 08/24/21 at 07:56:46 We all saw it. Gaslighting no longer works when there are a 1,000 visual records. It does if you cherry-pick the VIDEO you watch and pretend no other VIDEO exists. |
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Title: Re: NYT "Day of Rage" 40min. documentary Post by Serowbot on 08/24/21 at 09:07:36 It was or it wasn't can be argued forever with neither giving an inch as new information is unveiled. But this is the mouse that roared. A small contingent of right-wing conspiracy nuts are of one opinion, and the FBI, CIA, NSA, DOJ, and the majority of America and the world have a different opinion. We don't give equal credence because we shouldn't. This same nut fringe says vaccinations make you magnetic, and are used to track you. Jews shot laser beams from satellites to start Cali wildfires. Liberals are baby eating pedophiles. Trump is really still President. The election was a fraud. Seriously? Why? Social media has found a way to coalesce the crazy. It happens that former President Trump is one of them. That does not validate their opinions. |
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Title: Re: NYT "Day of Rage" 40min. documentary of 1/6/21 Post by WebsterMark on 08/24/21 at 10:41:37 Webster will argue it's not a flood while he's up to his neck in water. No. You’re asking me to call it a flood when I’m standing in a puddle. A puddle is not a flood. You can call it a flood if you want to but it’s not. It’s just a puddle. |
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Title: Re: NYT "Day of Rage" 40min. documentary of 1/6/21 Post by WebsterMark on 08/24/21 at 10:42:30 6E786F726A7F72691D0 wrote:
Show me where Trump ask everybody to show up on January 6 armed. |
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Title: Re: NYT "Day of Rage" 40min. documentary of 1/6/21 Post by WebsterMark on 08/24/21 at 10:48:00 If I announce I’m going to purchase General Motors and run it the right way, and I walk into their headquarters with my checkbook, no one would seriously think this is a legitimate purchase offer. It doesn’t matter how many times you or I may say that I’m gonna take over General motors, it’s simply not true. It’s an impossibility. Likewise, a bunch of people that showed up at a Trump rally and got out-of-control and broke into the capital. There were a few people who had a little bit more grandiose plans in mind, but that does not make it an insurrection, again you can call an insurrection all you want but it had zero chance of success and the evidence was once they got inside with very little police presence they didn’t do anything. Why? Because they didn’t consider an insurrection either. Stop calling it an insurrection |
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Title: Re: NYT "Day of Rage" 40min. documentary Post by Eegore on 08/24/21 at 13:12:15 There were a few people who had a little bit more grandiose plans in mind, So these people, who weren't taking selfies, might fall under insurrectionist. I think more accurately defined as sedition for most as it was more inciting than acting, but lets just say insurrection for this one evaluation. "Whoever incites, sets on foot, assists, or engages in any rebellion or insurrection against the authority of the United States or the law there, or gives aid or comfort thereto" How many people would it take to consider an event an "insurrection"? Is there a percentage? Like if 51% of total participants? Could a small group, like The Proud Boys, or ANTIFA affiliates, if proven to have organized a pre-planned attempt to enter the Capitol and stop a due process of law, be considered an "insurrection"? I think sticking to the "two or more" provision is best, and then defining the actual actors, not an event as a whole. As in if a group of 4 ANTIFA affiliates organize an attempt and act on it, to stop a Trump re-election, they are part of an insurrection. The other 1200 people just complaining holding signs were protesters. Theoretically we could have multiple insurrections on the same day at the same event. If Proud Boys and Oath Keepers acted in two groups of 6, separately, within the bounds of legal definition of "insurrection" then two insurrections happened that day. |
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Title: Re: NYT "Day of Rage" 40min. documentary of 1/6/21 Post by Serowbot on 08/24/21 at 14:11:22 So what was the uniting influence that made both actions occur on the same date? |
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Title: Re: NYT "Day of Rage" 40min. documentary Post by WebsterMark on 08/25/21 at 04:10:28 1030323A2730550 wrote:
Then dozens, perhaps hundreds could have been charged with insurrection in Portland or LA or NYC on a hundred different nights this summer. But despite their coordinated activity, fire bombing police stations and other government buildings. I would never think of that as an insurrection. |
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Title: Re: NYT "Day of Rage" 40min. documentary of 1/6/21 Post by WebsterMark on 08/25/21 at 04:18:27 5543544951444952260 wrote:
Trump. The single biggest mistake Trump ever made was a January 6 rally in Washington DC. Either he knew and wanted violent actions or he fell into the presidential bubble all presidents fall into a lost track of reality. The other dumb mistake was thinking a military parade with tanks and soldiers walking down DC streets was a good idea. But, as the FBI have stated, a very few and organized groups planned to attack the capital. Some of those groups had FBI informants as members and serious allegations that they were in fact driving the discussions. I don’t know how truthful that is. I’m not sure anybody knows right now and I’m also not sure if we’ll ever know the absolute truth about that. The phrase mob mentality exist for a reason. Those groups began chanting and rushing the capital other people caught up in the moment followed along. That’s how you got a couple of thousand people instead of a couple of dozen. But even the organized groups had zero chance of success. Not a 1% chance of success. Zero % chance of success. You’re not going to take over the US capital and force senators to change their votes or to leave the building without weapons. Not sharpened flag poles but guns. Lots of guns. This was not an insurrection I could get a dozen people with our checkbooks and we could invade General motors board of directors meeting thinking we were going to buy out the majority share and take over. We might have more success with that and a few people with flag poles taking over the US government. Stop calling January 6 and insurrection. |
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Title: Re: NYT "Day of Rage" 40min. documentary Post by Eegore on 08/25/21 at 05:55:10 Then dozens, perhaps hundreds could have been charged with insurrection in Portland or LA or NYC on a hundred different nights this summer. Yeah the ANTIFA did it too argument has been done, over and over. Bobby broke more windows, I got it. I would say the primary difference is the impact of a Presidential election versus a local election, or in the hundreds of nights no election was taking place. A lot of this violence and vandalism happened with no Federal or State impact beyond the damage itself. But despite their coordinated activity, fire bombing police stations and other government buildings. I would never think of that as an insurrection. Damaging a government building because you are pissed off at the local police has different intent than damaging a government building to take control of it and place new leadership within. So, to me, I would say intent has a lot to do with it. Firebombing a police station won't get us a new President. The unique situation with Jan 6th is the intended removal of one President and the replacement of another. This is why, to me, premeditation is a factor, versus just being there with like-minded people. But even the organized groups had zero chance of success. Not a 1% chance of success. Zero % chance of success. You’re not going to take over the US capital and force senators to change their votes or to leave the building without weapons. Not sharpened flag poles but guns. Lots of guns. I agree but I am not sure how the potential for success plays into defining an act. Like if I tried to steal a car by shoving a dime into the ignition that is still attempted grand theft. I most likely wouldn't get as harsh of punishment as somebody using real tools that would work, but by definition, I still attempted a vehicle theft. Stop calling January 6 and insurrection. Would that work if I told you to start calling it a partial insurrection? |
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Title: Re: NYT "Day of Rage" 40min. documentary Post by Serowbot on 08/25/21 at 08:47:20 What difference does it make what I call it? What difference does it make what you call it? It is what it is. It's being called an insurrection by politicians, courts, FBI and DOJ. That matters. They decide when crimes reach a level to be defined as more than the sum of their parts. When protest becomes criminal violence becomes insurrection. That question has been pretty much answered. The question now is did the President and others commit sedition in inciting it. When you look at what he said, combined with other actions he took in trying to overturn the election, it's clear he did. The combination of lies, threats, pressuring authorities, trying to manipulate courts, and inflaming the passion of his base, proves his intent to subvert the will of the people and overturn an election. |
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Title: Re: NYT "Day of Rage" 40min. documentary Post by WebsterMark on 08/25/21 at 10:22:06 293F28352D38352E5A0 wrote:
Because many politicians and bureaucrats including those in the FBI have the same distorted, hyper-partisan view that you have. That’s why it’s important to get the terms correct. It was not an insurrection and Trump is not guilty of sedition. He’s guilty of being an idiot, I’ll give you that, but not sedition. This was a crazy riot that got out of control (not unprecedented ) and an overhyped partisan media saw yet another opportunity to tear Trump apart. Same as they did with the virus and we’re living with the consequences of that as well. I’m right; you two and a bunch of partisan media hacks, bureaucrats, and leftist politicians are wrong. I’m done with this. Seriously, done. |
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Title: Re: NYT "Day of Rage" 40min. documentary Post by Eegore on 08/25/21 at 11:21:02 I’m right; you two and a bunch of partisan media hacks, bureaucrats, and leftist politicians are wrong. Except I agreed with you in part about the insurrection terms being used to reference the whole group, multiple times, but pretend I am saying this was an insurrection. If only I had said this in my very first post: So I stand by my assessment. Some people were protesters. Some people were violent and assaulted the police. Trying to say all those people are armed insurrectionists is wrong. Saying they all went in after the police pulled back barricades and took selfies an committed no assaults is wrong. However you won't articulate anything more than ANTIFA did it too. How many times do you need to hear that comparative logic doesn't answer why you think nobody there was part of an insurrection. I ask a few questions and you act like I am saying everyone is an insurrectionist. I do not agree that all people were unarmed. Why would they be considered unarmed? |
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Title: Re: NYT "Day of Rage" 40min. documentary of 1/6/21 Post by MnSpring on 08/25/21 at 18:12:07 Boston, 1773, North American British colonies. You are a cobbler and have a Wife and some kids. You go to the Pub once and a while, play some darts, sing some songs, perhaps some cards. Have some neibours over on Sat, go to church on Sunday. You make a good living, life is good. However, King George is demanding More and More Taxes for the shoes you make. (and the Tea you drink) which means less and less income for you and your family. At that time their were, basically, two thoughts of the people/colonist. One was, “… King George is Wonderfull …” The other was, ‘ … A Free Nation …” Very Clear that the tt/clones, and some others, would say, “Long Live King George !!!!!” Now, 248 years later. You are going to work every day, yet the people around you are getting MORE money to stay home. The prices of everything is skyrocketing. Yet, (the tt/clones, and some others), say: (to the like) “… Ding-Dong and HO-HO are WONDERFUL …”: |
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Title: Re: NYT "Day of Rage" 40min. documentary of 1/6/21 Post by WebsterMark on 09/27/21 at 14:14:02 Shorter but more accurate documentary. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmJ0HDbZi5M |
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Title: Re: NYT "Day of Rage" 40min. documentary of 1/6/21 Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/28/21 at 08:11:43 Someone finally pried the video away from the prosecution. Ohh ,horrors! The people were ambling in,, looking around, not the frenzied ,angry people we were told. The ability of some people to believe the Mostly Peaceful riots, real riots, with injuries, destruction and death, were okay, and people walking around in the Capitol were actually trying to overthrow the government is taxing my mind. And how they are being treated is criminal. |
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Title: Re: NYT "Day of Rage" 40min. documentary Post by MnSpring on 09/29/21 at 07:43:35 6646444C5146230 wrote:
So the people that created, occupied, and, kept out any police or authority, in the numerous autonomous zones. are not covered under the same law ? The stealing/looting all across this Nation, is not covered under the same law ? The burning/destroying of property, in numerous Cities, is not covered by the same law? The law that Eegore said, was the law governing the Capital Protest ? "Whoever incites, sets on foot, assists, or engages in any rebellion or insurrection against the authority of the United States or the law there, or gives aid or comfort thereto" OK Got it ! |
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Title: Re: NYT "Day of Rage" 40min. documentary of 1/6/21 Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/29/21 at 09:27:11 Unless you're a violent, riotous army of lefties. You Know our law enforcement, from top to bottom, LIVE to apply the law to everyone, equally. Full disclosure I had to stop and regain my composure three times to get That buncha bullshit typed. You Do realize that there are people who ACTUALLY believe that the riots, destroyed businesses, injured and killed people, are insignificant.. The Mission of putting forward the absolute delusion that blacks are systematically hunted and killed Because they are black, and blacks are disproportionately killed by cops, in spite of the statistics that are not in agreement.. The instigators of 1/6 ?? How many were lefties in drag? Pretending to be Trump supporters? Can you say False Flag? Who is better off today? I have been seeing reports of Biden supporters walking away.. Phhhht,, he HAD no support. Stolen election. |
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Title: Re: NYT "Day of Rage" 40min. documentary of 1/6/21 Post by Eegore on 09/30/21 at 08:07:11 "So the people that created, occupied, and, kept out any police or authority, in the numerous autonomous zones. are not covered under the same law ?" I'm not sure, but I would think so. "The stealing/looting all across this Nation, is not covered under the same law ?" I think so if done as a group of 2 or more. The action of theft is typically covered under other laws. "The burning/destroying of property, in numerous Cities, is not covered by the same law?" I think so. These actions are addressed by other laws more directly. I imagine since the ambiguity of "any rebellion or insurrection against the authority of the United States or the law there" can be so broadly applied it can apply to almost any group breaking any law. This is part of why it's pretty much never applied. |
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Title: Re: NYT "Day of Rage" 40min. documentary of 1/6/21 Post by MnSpring on 09/30/21 at 18:15:09 436361697463060 wrote:
I see, so for the 100's of incidents it was Not applied. Yet for the one, it was ? |
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Title: Re: NYT "Day of Rage" 40min. documentary Post by Eegore on 09/30/21 at 19:51:26 "I see, so for the 100's of incidents it was Not applied. Yet for the one, it was ?" No. Are you aware of anyone charged with insurrection or related crimes like seditious conspiracy or treason? It seems, universally, other laws are more easily applied. |
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Title: Re: NYT "Day of Rage" 40min. documentary of 1/6/21 Post by Eegore on 10/02/21 at 15:49:51 The instigators of 1/6 ?? How many were lefties in drag? Pretending to be Trump supporters? Can you say False Flag? How many do you think there were? Lets say 10 million people instigate a man you do not know to come onto your property without your permission, and you tell him to stay off your property and away from your wife/property, would it be acceptable for him to do so anyway because 10 million people encouraged him? Would it be a false narrative to say he did because so many people supported and instigated his actions? |
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Title: Re: NYT "Day of Rage" 40min. documentary of 1/6/21 Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/03/21 at 11:27:16 Nice try. The doors were held open. The people walked in peacefully. Maybe you missed the video? The MAJORITY were just on a stroll. The complete opposite of the Mostly Peaceful murderous and arsonist blm riots. Go ahead, pretend that having blm and most likely FBI instigators leading the way is meaningless. You Know that is bullshit, E. Why are these people being crushed? Held indefinitely, the FBI So able to track them down and throw them in the hole for months, while the arsonists of the blm riots were only rarely pursued? Think it's Equal enforcement of the laws? Where is the bail for these people? You can't tell me you agree with the way this is being done. |
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Title: Re: NYT "Day of Rage" 40min. documentary Post by Eegore on 10/03/21 at 11:56:28 "The doors were held open. The people walked in peacefully. Maybe you missed the video?" And the other videos? Maybe you missed those. People spraying law enforcement with chemical, hitting them with weapons, dragging them down stairs? I should just ignore those and only look at the one's where people walked in. Why? "The MAJORITY were just on a stroll." I agree but blaming others for instigating is like blaming anyone else for your actions. If 10 million Lefties in drag instigated a casual stroll through the Capitol, should the people strolling be held accountable for their own actions? "Go ahead, pretend that having blm and most likely FBI instigators leading the way is meaningless. You Know that is bullshit, E." I don't agree at all. I don't think BLM went to the front in MAGA hats to start the casual stroll. If they did, how is it not the responsibility of each individual to be accountable for their own action? BLM made me do it! "Think it's Equal enforcement of the laws? Where is the bail for these people? You can't tell me you agree with the way this is being done." I already said I don't agree enforcement is equal or appropriate multiple times. Again the same old rehash - if I question the accuracy of one portion of a topic you guys pretend I am supporting the topic as a whole. Saying I think there is not much likelihood, or evidence, that BLM dressed up as MAGA to start a stroll is not equal to saying I think every person there should be in jail. If you like tan fuel tanks on a Suzuki Savage and claim it is factory paint, and I say I don't think that is factory paint that does not mean I only ride Harleys. |
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