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Wiseco CR - The Facts (Read 256 times)
DragBikeMike
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Re: Wiseco CR - The Facts
Reply #15 - 05/04/20 at 01:32:11
 
Then drop the putty into a graduated beaker filled to a known level with oil.  When I dropped the two pieces of putty into my beaker the oil level rose about 1 cc.  So, each valve relief has a volume of 0.5 cc for a total of 1 cc.
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DragBikeMike
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Re: Wiseco CR - The Facts
Reply #16 - 05/04/20 at 01:33:36
 
The volume of the pop-top sticks up and reduces the volume of the combustion area, while the volumes of the valve reliefs increase the volume of the combustion area.  One offsets the other.  So, adjust the volume of the pop-top by 1 cc.  The pop-top volume of 6.5 cc minus the valve relief volume of 1 cc leaves 5.5 cc.  The high compression piston should reduce the combustion area by 5.5 cc.  We could use negative 5.5 cc in the calculator for piston top volume, but I wanted to make sure.

I wanted to cross check my calculations, so I set up the 97 mm Wiseco exactly .095” from the top of the cylinder.  That .095” is measured from the flat top surface (red check), NOT the top of the dome (red X).

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DragBikeMike
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Re: Wiseco CR - The Facts
Reply #17 - 05/04/20 at 01:34:34
 
The volume of the cylinder above the flat top is easy to calculate.  The bore is 3.819” and the height of the area is .095”.  Pi x the radius squared x height = volume.  That works out to 1.088 cubic inches (17.829 cc).  Subtract the piston top volume of 5.5 cc and we should have a final volume of about 12.3 cc.

So, with the piston locked in place at .095” below the top of the cylinder, I sealed all around the top with grease.  Then I installed the clear plastic and filled the area with oil.

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DragBikeMike
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Re: Wiseco CR - The Facts
Reply #18 - 05/04/20 at 01:35:28
 
It took 11.5 cc of oil to fill the area.  That indicates that the piston top volume is 6.3 cc (17.8-11.5=6.3).   I opt to use the 6.3 cc value.  Since it reduces the volume of the combustion area it must be expressed as a negative value.
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DragBikeMike
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Re: Wiseco CR - The Facts
Reply #19 - 05/04/20 at 01:40:33
 
We are now ready to use the calculator.  The pop-top for the 94 mm Wiseco is identical to the pop-top for the 97 mm Wiseco, so we can use the same piston top volume (negative 6.3 cc) for either piston.

Use the following values in the RB calculator:

Bore: 3.703” for 94 mm, 3.819” for 97 mm
Stroke: 3.701”
Head Gasket: .028”
Deck Height: .143” (Wiseco is a bit taller than stock)
Piston top volume: -6.3 cc
Combustion Chamber: 56 cc

With the Wiseco 94 mm piston you end up with a compression ratio of 9.2:1

With the Wiseco 97 mm piston you end up with a compression ratio of 9.5:1


These values fall well short of 10.5:1, but keep in mind that the Wiseco we are using was intended for the DR650.  I assume that the DR engine brings the piston much closer to the top of the cylinder, which in turn results in less negative deck and a higher static compression ratio.

I am currently running a 94 mm Wiseco.  The cranking pressure is about 30 to 40 psi higher than stock, and it runs a lot better than it did with the stock CR.  Now I have a better idea where I stand and what I must do to bring the CR up to an honest 10:1.

I hope this report serves as a useful reference.  Knowledge is power.

Mike  
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Gary_in_NJ
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Re: Wiseco CR - The Facts
Reply #20 - 05/04/20 at 05:39:11
 
Excellent work Mike.
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Re: Wiseco CR - The Facts
Reply #21 - 05/04/20 at 06:40:03
 
 DMB, If you're still using the head where you modified the intake passage ,you may have a higher compression due to higher VE, maybe somewhere between 9.5 to 10:1, how much compression are you really willing to try considering that you said your oil temp had been running 340F.  While on that subject , rather than running 20w50 , I would think that you might try Rotella 5w40 instead, decreased pressure = increased flow which carries away more heat and the SAE Conference stated that if you can decrease oil temp by 20 degrees in a motor that the oil would act as the next higher grade (50w) . It seems worth investigation .
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Re: Wiseco CR - The Facts
Reply #22 - 05/04/20 at 06:56:02
 
Here NOW!,, Not everyone following this knows the cool abbreviations,,
VE?

Just figuring out HOW to establish the volume of places is cool.. Of Course it makes perfect sense,, fill it with putty,, remove the putty, measure the isplacement of the putty,, Violas,, Volume is discovered!

Dang nifty lab toys Mike,,
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Re: Wiseco CR - The Facts
Reply #23 - 05/04/20 at 07:07:05
 
Once again, well researched and documented!
I've always just assembled the top end with a bit of grease around the top ring land and filled oil in thru the spark plug hole til it hit the bottom of the plug threads. I get it that with an engine in the frame, this is often impossible.
Any reason not to do it that way with the Savage?
Were you really seeing 340F oil temps?!?!
thanks
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Re: Wiseco CR - The Facts
Reply #24 - 05/04/20 at 10:46:32
 
justin_o_guy2 wrote on 05/04/20 at 06:56:02:
Here NOW!,, Not everyone following this knows the cool abbreviations,,
VE?


VE=Volumetric Efficiency. Just because you have 652cc of space to fill does not mean that you filled that space to full capacity. 100% VE would mean that you have 652cc of fuel/air mix in that cylinder. At higher RPM there isn't enough time for the intake charge to completely fill the cylinder before the valve closes, and VE starts going down at that point. That is why you see torque and horsepower climb then begin to drop past a certain RPM on a dyno graph.
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Armen
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Re: Wiseco CR - The Facts
Reply #25 - 05/04/20 at 11:28:59
 
Actually, Fast, on a well tuned motor the intake doesn't close til ABDC and the incoming charge continues to some in. You can actually get more than 650ccs of mix into a 650cc motor.
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Re: Wiseco CR - The Facts
Reply #26 - 05/04/20 at 17:53:39
 
I know, but it is easier for the average person to visualize a drop in efficiency  than to understand how you can get  more than 100 percent efficiency. They start thinking that you are selling high grade bovine fertilizer then. Smiley
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Re: Wiseco CR - The Facts
Reply #27 - 05/04/20 at 19:48:26
 
Batman, that's a good point regarding dynamic compression ratio.  The RB Racing website also has a calculator for that.  You need connecting rod length (6.573") and intake valve closing point (depends on cam).  I haven't had much success with that particular calculator.  Wallace Racing also has one.  I get different values depending on which calculator I use.  This particular exercise is geared toward gathering the data needed to determine static CR.  Based on my personal experience with the LS650, I'm gonna shoot for 10:1 static CR for my next project.  BTW, that 340F was cylinder head temp not oil temp.  I'm fiddling around with some ideas for an oil cooler so I'm planning on doing some testing on the two oils (10W-40 & 20W-50) to get some baseline data.  Versy's report of 50 psi at the crankcase port threw a monkey wrench in my plan so I'm back to the drawing board.  I think I have some good ideas.  Just need to turn them into hardware.

Hey Armen, I've used your technique a time or two.  It's kinda messy when it's time to get the oil out, but it certainly gives you a good number. One of those fancy engine stands like you have would come in handy for that.  Measuring the different volumes gives more flexibility but also can introduce errors.  Now I know the volume of each key part in the mix.  I have more choices when it's time to adjust the squeeze.  I can also figure out the weight of the pop-top so I can get a feel for how much it will affect vibration if I lob the top off to make a tight-quench setup.

It's all good.  Cool
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Re: Wiseco CR - The Facts
Reply #28 - 05/05/20 at 05:47:35
 
Hey Mike,
Maybe I'm being slow to think, but it seems like a lot of work.
With the new piston, if you measure down from the top of the cylinder to the edge of the squish band (is that the .143" measurement you have?), and figure that into the basic volume of a cylinder formula and call that "X", then put on the plate and fill with oil and call that "Y", can't you just subtract Y from X and have the change in volume caused by the difference in dome shape? It's just that I'm way too lazy to do the math.
Even if you had a pop top that stuck above the surface of the cylinder, you could drop the piston down a set amount (say 10mm) and do those measurements.
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Re: Wiseco CR - The Facts
Reply #29 - 05/05/20 at 06:19:14
 
Thsanks both of you,, and yeah,, the General explanation first probably was better. I do understand a column of air moving, too,, but IM glad we didnt start there
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