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batman

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Re: Ethanol
Reply #60 - 02/17/18 at 21:11:23

ZX_14, Actually I do have the knowledge ,IF you could advance the timing on a stock Savage by 4 degrees ,all you have to do is change from using 87 to using 89 octane gas to avoid detonation .(1 point in octane for each 2 degrees of advance) I must say I'm surprised that a master engine builder like yourself ,with the "I know how to do it " attitude wouldn't know that! If you did a bit of research you'd find that people have found a way to advance the valve timing by only 1.5 degrees and the spark timing by only about 3 degrees, so your 105 octane can 't be fully used unless you raise combustion ratio.
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« Last Edit: 02/19/18 at 22:18:39 by batman »

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GT61 TURBO ZX14

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Re: Ethanol
Reply #61 - 02/17/18 at 22:22:16

norm92de wrote on 02/17/18 at 20:45:02:

I own an S40, so who gives a rats.

If I wanted to go fast I wouldn't try to do it on a savage!!! There are so many engine designs out there that without stupid ETHANOL it would be easy to blast past our poor little bike.

Give it up mate! Roll Eyes

Your right that's why I have a turbo zx14 making 660hp that's 80ci motor that's 1352cc making 660hp I build things for fun and because I can mate Roll Eyes

I wish people on her would quit telling me to buy another bike that's faster or quit wasting my time I bought the fastest bike on the market which was a ZX-14 and built it and turboed it and I got another one on nitrous this is what I do and I do it well that's why I got other bikes souped up I do this for a living you guys do this as a hobby

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Re: Ethanol
Reply #62 - 02/17/18 at 22:24:30

batman wrote on 02/17/18 at 21:11:23:

ZX_14, Actually I do have the knowledge ,IF you could advance the timing on a stock Savage by 4 degrees ,all you have to do is change from using 87 to using 89 octane gas to avoid detonation .(1 point in octane for each 2 degrees of advance) I must say I'm surprised that a master engine builder like yourself ,with the "I know how to do it " attitude wouldn't know that! If you did a bit of research you'd find that people have found a way to advance the valve timing by only 1.5 degrees and the spark timing by only about 3 degrees, so your 105 octane can 't be fully used.
The fact that you think your motor would run cooler on corn is just another one of your misconceptions . Only the intake passage and the fuel charge is cooled ,and it needs to be if you have to inject 33% more fuel into the same space, but when it ignites having the same power as gas it creates the same ignition temperature ,the motor doesn't run any cooler.

LOL yeah because every motor works the same quit reading a book you don't know nothing until you get it on the dyno no two Motors are exactly the same but you should know this I'm done talking with you have a nice day

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batman Serious Thumper Offline SuzukiSavage.com Rocks! Posts: 3806 osceola new york Gender:	Re: Ethanol Reply #63 - 02/17/18 at 22:29:11 Well I haven't heard of you selling one yet so it's either a hobby or you must be starving. (it's probably your dad's bike anyway)Besides I don't really care this isn't the ZX-14 site it's Suzikisavage.com
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Re: Ethanol
Reply #64 - 02/17/18 at 22:31:52

batman wrote on 02/17/18 at 22:29:11:

Well I haven't heard of you selling one yet so it's either a hobby or you must be starving. Besides I don't really care this isn't the ZX-14 site it's Suzikisavage.com

I don't sell bikes for a living I build them

What I want to know is all this talk about 1 degree for each Mountain all this stuff in that where's your Dyno proof show me Dyno slips.

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batman Serious Thumper Offline SuzukiSavage.com Rocks! Posts: 3806 osceola new york Gender:	Re: Ethanol Reply #65 - 02/17/18 at 22:41:16 READ IT AGAIN I base my statements on research ,I could cite it but if you read it you still wouldn't believe it so I won't waste the time it would take. I said "IF" you could advance the timing ,then went on to show that you can't. How can you dyno something that can't be done DUH!
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Re: Ethanol
Reply #66 - 02/17/18 at 22:59:54

Somewhere on this site, I think I posted a photo of an Ethanol service station, somewhere in your Corn Belt in 1931. Last night I read an interesting article on Ethanol by a historian , Professor Kovics or some such name. He dealt with the use of Ethanol as a fuel or fuel mix from the 1890's to about the 1940's. I'd post the site if I could remember it.

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Re: Ethanol
Reply #67 - 02/18/18 at 02:44:03

batman wrote on 02/17/18 at 22:41:16:

READ IT AGAIN Roll Eyes

I base my statements on research ,I could cite it but if you read it you still wouldn't believe it so I won't waste the time it would take. I said "IF" you could advance the timing ,then went on to show that you can't. How can you dyno something that can't be done DUH!

Do you have any dyno information?

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Re: Ethanol
Reply #68 - 02/18/18 at 02:45:14

jcstokes wrote on 02/17/18 at 22:59:54:

Somewhere on this site, I think I posted a photo of an Ethanol service station, somewhere in your Corn Belt in 1931. Last night I read an interesting article on Ethanol by a historian , Professor Kovics or some such name. He dealt with the use of Ethanol as a fuel or fuel mix from the 1890's to about the 1940's. I'd post the site if I could remember it.

Everything use to be on ethanol even when the Harley-Davidson built their first motorcycle that ran on ethanol

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norm92de Serious Thumper Offline SuzukiSavage.com Rocks! Posts: 1180 El Paso TX Gender:	Re: Ethanol Reply #69 - 02/18/18 at 07:45:01 GT61, Some of the "amateur/hobbyists" on this site have produced really fine work, don't sell them short. I only wish I were included in that group. If you think your abilities are superior please demonstrate. Otherwise...
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batman Serious Thumper Offline SuzukiSavage.com Rocks! Posts: 3806 osceola new york Gender:	Re: Ethanol Reply #70 - 02/18/18 at 19:22:53 Although the 1903 HD motorcycle and the 1908 Ford model T could run on ethanol or an ethanol/gas mix, I would hardly doubt that they ever did . The very first to add any ethanol to it's gas to raise octane was The Standard Oil Co. in 1920 . Gasoline had been around since 1871.
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Re: Ethanol
Reply #71 - 02/19/18 at 00:10:10

batman wrote on 02/18/18 at 19:22:53:

Although the 1903 HD motorcycle and the 1908 Ford model T could run on ethanol or an ethanol/gas mix, I would hardly doubt that they ever did . The very first to add any ethanol to it's gas to raise octane was The Standard Oil Co. in 1920 . Gasoline had been around since 1871.

A lot of people back in the day that were making moonshine we're running it as gasoline also some of them were even running it come there because they are filling the gas tanks brand gas tanks full of the stuff and running on it to get to where they needed to go and then siphoning it out to sell

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Re: Ethanol
Reply #72 - 02/19/18 at 00:12:48

norm92de wrote on 02/18/18 at 07:45:01:

GT61,
Some of the "amateur/hobbyists" on this site have produced really fine work, don't sell them short. I only wish I were included in that group.

If you think your abilities are superior please demonstrate. Otherwise...

I know and I ant but I always prove my stuff and people hate it but I don't care I do it because I love to work on stuff it's fun

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Dave

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Re: Ethanol
Reply #73 - 02/19/18 at 06:19:32

The availability of fuel in the early part of the 1900's was not great......and alternate fuels were often used. The alternate fuels were not used because they were better - but because they were locally available. Some early tractors and farm engines were made to run on either gasoline or kerosene - the kerosene was readily available as it was used in lamps stoves and heaters. There were also stationary engines that ran off natural gas....and in some cities they made "producer gas" and piped it to customers....producer gas was made by taking the fumes from partially burned wood or coal and piping it to the customers (and I believe the leftover solids became coke and charcoal). I am not sure what the ethanol was used for back then - but if it was more readily available than gasoline they may have used it in some engines....I believe there were Sterling cycle engines that used flame from alcohol burners.

Here is an interesting list of some events:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_alcohol_fuel

For me, there is no reason to fuss around with ethanol or E85. My bike was built to run on gasoline, it runs fine on gasoline, gasoline is readily available and for the moment is is pretty affordable, and my bike makes all the power that I need and gets decent fuel mileage. I find more pleasure from riding my bike than I do from spending good riding time experimenting with alternate fuels.
This is the Rubber Side Down section......it is supposed to be used for discussions about the Savage and topics related to the repair and operation of the Savage.......not of general discussions of ethanol vs. gasoline. If you want to run ethanol in your bike and you have the ability to make it happen.....cool. I don't suggest that you promote it as a better fuel or suggest that others make the switch......until you have successfully done so and proven that it works (and works well). I don't believe a single dyno run or a month of testing is proof of success - it needs to be a long enough period to show the bike will start and run reliably.
http://www.ethanolproducer.com/articles/4874/cruisin-on-e85

If you want to continue the ethanol/gasoline discussion.....I can move this thread to the Cafe' section.

If you want to post your progress of questions on converting your Savage to run on E85 or ethanol....I can leave the thread here in the RSD.

Carry on.........

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« Last Edit: 02/19/18 at 08:34:41 by Dave »

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batman

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Re: Ethanol
Reply #74 - 02/19/18 at 09:33:40

Dave ,you were close ,"consumer gas" was made by the fumes driven off of coke ,in ovens, when natural gas was not available.(there were no major gas transport lines ,gas had to be produced on location) It's first use was for street lighting in cities ,and later buildings and homes, before the use of electricity. Moonshiners may well have run their cars on alcohol ,but I think people in urban areas would have rather drank it,and used gas in their cars . the combustion ratio of the model T was 4.5 :1.

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