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Message started by JOEL2014 on 02/07/18 at 17:28:23

Title: Ethanol
Post by JOEL2014 on 02/07/18 at 17:28:23

Will using gasoline with ten percent ethanol harm our precious engines over time? Anyone have any long term experience with this?

Title: Re: Ethanol
Post by Gary_in_NJ on 02/07/18 at 17:45:57

Ethanol is a problem for long term storage, but for an engine that sees regular use a 10% concentration will not effect performance provided the engine is jetted for that mixture.

Title: Re: Ethanol
Post by Dave on 02/08/18 at 03:53:49

I agree with Gary. If the E10 fuel is in a vehicle that you use regularly, and you use the fuel in the tank up every month.....you shouldn't have any problems. The ethanol issues show up as corrosion when the fuel is not used regularly and the fuel get a chance to begin to decompose. In a climate controlled environment the degradation is delayed a bit - if the bike is stored outdoors and subject to the heating/cooling/moisture swings the problems can show up pretty quickly. The big issue is when the gasoline portion of the fuel in the carb float bowl begins to evaporate, and the concentration of the ethanol in the float bowl increases.......the ethanol is corrosive to aluminum and also absorbs water from the atmosphere.

If you are going to leave the bike stored for a while - drain the float bowl to eliminate the chance of corrosion in the carb.

Title: Re: Ethanol
Post by HAPPYDAN on 02/08/18 at 09:08:21

Or just use a fuel stabilizer. I do regularly, and have had my S40 since 2012 with no problems. Cuts down on backfiring, too.

Title: Re: Ethanol
Post by kojones on 02/08/18 at 09:15:07

Has anyone tried to run on pure ethanol? We have E85 here, which is 85% ethanol. Needs some jet changes at least, but with a high compression piston it should work quite well.

Title: Re: Ethanol
Post by JOEL2014 on 02/08/18 at 13:47:35

Corp
370A11060737140A0006630 wrote:

Or just use a fuel stabilizer. I do regularly, and have had my S40 since 2012 with no problems. Cuts down on backfiring, too.

What stabilizer do you use?

Title: Re: Ethanol
Post by HAPPYDAN on 02/10/18 at 20:32:05

STA-BIL. I get it at Walmart. Most motorcycle dealers sell some other types that are supposed to be made specifically for motorcycles. The alleged damaging effects of ethanol (E10 gas) on small engines are well documented, albeit controversial. Previously, I owned a Yamaha XT225, which would not start if untreated gas (E10) had been left in the carburetor for more than a week. I got frustrated with it and traded it off before I found out what the simple problem was. Manufacturers claim newer engine designs are not affected.

Title: Re: Ethanol
Post by norm92de on 02/10/18 at 20:41:43

Ethanol sucks. We are saddled with it by government edict.

Here in El Paso pure gas is unavailable. :'(

Title: Re: Ethanol
Post by JOEL2014 on 02/11/18 at 12:19:26

023F24333202213F3533560 wrote:

Thanks! I will give it a shot since the engine is new. I want to start out right.

Title: Re: Ethanol
Post by JOEL2014 on 02/11/18 at 12:21:54

77766B74202B7D7C190 wrote:

Ethanol sucks. We are saddled with it by government edict.

Here in El Paso pure gas is unavailable. :'(

Oh it's available in South Carolina alright but it is about 3.50 a gallon..

Title: Re: Ethanol
Post by batman on 02/11/18 at 22:11:18

All things being equal ,if your bike got 50 mpg on straight gas ,you'd get 48.3 on E10 ,pity the guy running E85 he'd be getting 35.8 mpg.

Title: Re: Ethanol
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 02/12/18 at 09:50:01

It's a pure genius thing to
Raise a crop
To make alcohol
Genius..
Making alcohol from waste
Provided transportation costs don't eat the value of it
Makes sense.
I wonder what pesticides get used on the Non Food crop.
How many people are making a living, how many tractors, how much fuel, how much water,
I don't think it's anywhere near the benefit we were told.
But, that's critical thinking.. and not many people engage in that.

Title: Re: Ethanol
Post by ArkansasBrian on 02/12/18 at 15:32:44

Ethanol requirements are and have always been a gift to the grain belt, and, by extension Monsanto. Corn is a stupid crop from which to make ethanol, but we're really really good at growing it, particularly in "Round-up Ready" form. Between the corporate dollars backing it and the early timing of the Iowa primary, neither party wants to touch it.

Title: Re: Ethanol
Post by GT61 TURBO ZX14 on 02/12/18 at 16:18:40

You can run E85 in them you just need to flush the card at the end of the year or take it apart clean it and put it back on it will run cooler and make a Lil more torque but you will have to rejet it to run E85. Running E10 the problem is people let it sit in the tank and then it eats ship if you're not running it enough or let it sit all winter I delete stuff up but if you're riding it through the summer and then when you go to store either put 110 race gas in it with LED and run it through the carb little bit or put 91 clear no ethanol for storage I like using the 110 race gas because it Lubes everything up so it doesn't dry out

Title: Re: Ethanol
Post by batman on 02/13/18 at 08:42:02

"cost for corn based ethanol should be $2.53/gal. but on equivalent energy basis , (2/3 THAT OF GASOLINE) the cost is $3.80/gal ." so if three gallons of gas would take you 100 miles, you'd need 4 gallons of ethanol.3 gallons Gas at $3.50 a gal (avg?)-$10.50, ethanol at the price stated above $11.40. so you can save oil ,but it 's not cheap!

Title: Re: Ethanol
Post by GT61 TURBO ZX14 on 02/13/18 at 09:17:06

The benefits of running E85 is like running alcohol it cools the motor better and you will make more power but its design to allow you to get away with running away higher compression and still be on a pump gas fuel we use it a lot in the race bikes and race cars mostly cars though works really good under boost or was nitrous oxide I've been playing with E85 for years I like it but if you don't clean the carb every year you will have problems it's a cheap alternative to race gas when you're trying to run 14 and a half to 1 compression on an iron headed small block or big block Chevy or Ford or whatever you running you can get away of E85 on it I was figuring on this motorcycle an E85 I could get away with 16 and 1/2 to 1 no problem. Maybe higher don't know till I build the other motor.

Title: Re: Ethanol
Post by Dave on 02/13/18 at 09:26:47

And how does this E85 discussion relate to an 8.5:1 compression Savage engine?

And how do I start a 14.5:1 compression ratio with a Savage starter motor?

And where do I find E85 on my rides around the country....with a small fuel tank that requires me to stop for fuel every 100 miles?

Sorry - my needs are a bit more basic, as I ride my motorcycle more than just 1/4 mile at a time. I want a motorcycle that I can count on to get me there and back, and that can be fueled up at any local gas station or convenient store - including the ones scattered around the sparsely populated mountains.

Title: Re: Ethanol
Post by Gary_in_NJ on 02/13/18 at 09:30:30

Don't you want all the torques?

Title: Re: Ethanol
Post by Fast 650 on 02/13/18 at 09:32:02

E85 would have another drawback for you Dave. It takes more fuel to equal the same power as gasoline, so you would have to jet it a lot richer to compensate. With a corresponding drop in fuel mileage.

Title: Re: Ethanol
Post by GT61 TURBO ZX14 on 02/13/18 at 10:24:37

Just giving information we have e85 on every block around here darn near in Minnesota so E85 and hard to find and if I'm going long-distance riding I'll get on the big Goldwing or the big Harley Cruiser

Title: Re: Ethanol
Post by Gary_in_NJ on 02/13/18 at 11:04:44

74584B526E7E584C4D51505C4B390 wrote:
and if I'm going long-distance riding I'll get on the big Goldwing or the big Harley Cruiser...

...and I'll add NOx, a turbo charger and super charger and the loudest BOV on the the planet so everyone will know when I'm shifting gears.

- there, I finished your sentence.

Title: Re: Ethanol
Post by Dave on 02/13/18 at 13:22:51

4C60736A564660747569686473010 wrote:

If you are riding at the Tail of the Dragon....it is a 25 mile ride to get E85. Most likely you can't ride more than 50 miles away from Andrews, NC......or you may not make it back to get another tank!

http://e85-gas-stations.localkk.com/nc/robbinsville
https://www.mapquest.com/directions/from/us/north-carolina/deals-gap-motorcycle-resort-352522949/to/us/nc/andrews/28901-9298/53-locust-st-35.201723,-83.825321

Just providing the useful information that converting your Savage to run E85 is a very bad idea.....unless you like tinkering and never want to go too far from your nearby E85 source. (I bet it is really hard to get a carb'd bike running E85 to start in cold weather).

Title: Re: Ethanol
Post by GT61 TURBO ZX14 on 02/13/18 at 15:24:50

506B6671606C77716A626F70030 wrote:

[quote author=4C60736A564660747569686473010 link=1518053304/15#19 date=1518546277]Just giving information we have e85 on every block around here darn near in Minnesota so E85 and hard to find and if I'm going long-distance riding I'll get on the big Goldwing or the big Harley Cruiser

Title: Re: Ethanol
Post by norm92de on 02/13/18 at 15:54:01

Alcohol fuel is for the birds!!! Not the way I would have expressed it but trying to be polite I am sure everybody gets my meaning.

Alcohol is a nasty fuel. Another form of it is not too bad. :)

Title: Re: Ethanol
Post by snels516 on 02/13/18 at 19:03:30

3938253A6E653332570 wrote:

Alcohol fuel is for the birds!!! Not the way I would have expressed it but trying to be polite I am sure everybody gets my meaning.

Alcohol is a nasty fuel. Another form of it is not too bad. :)

I dunno man I fuel me with alcohol and I run ok

Title: Re: Ethanol
Post by GT61 TURBO ZX14 on 02/13/18 at 19:11:33

4D505B524D0B0F083E0 wrote:

[quote author=3938253A6E653332570 link=1518053304/15#23 date=1518566041]Alcohol fuel is for the birds!!! Not the way I would have expressed it but trying to be polite I am sure everybody gets my meaning.

Alcohol is a nasty fuel. Another form of it is not too bad. :)

I dunno man I fuel me with alcohol and I run ok[/quote]

Lol ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Title: Re: Ethanol
Post by norm92de on 02/13/18 at 19:22:22

I guess my meaning was not to clear. :'(

Title: Re: Ethanol
Post by Fast 650 on 02/14/18 at 08:21:59

Ethanol doesn't provide any real benefit with a normally aspirated motor either. Check out the Engine Masters E85 vs Gasoline shootout on Youtube. They used a very high compression engine for the test. from 3500 rpm to peak torque E85 made slightly more torque than gasoline, but the peak numbers stayed the same.The additional amount of fuel required for E85 displaced that same amount of air so the engine couldn't fill the cylinders well enough to make any more power. Under boost, E85 would likely show improvements. But in normally aspirated conditions it isn't worth it unless you are running 13 to 1 compression ratio..

Title: Re: Ethanol
Post by kojones on 02/14/18 at 11:06:28

I'm really interested in converting my bike to ethanol, at least as a test if it isn't too expensive. I'm fine with a cooler running engine with less pollution. Not suitable for longer trips, but if it's just minor changes in the carb, maybe just some new jets required? The bike has a a VM36 w. UFO, DR cam, 95 mm Wiseco and a fast looking muffler ;D

Title: Re: Ethanol
Post by batman on 02/14/18 at 11:41:55

Your motor is a Heat engine less heat output means less power,and E-85 also gives at least 1/3 less mileage. while it does have 105 octane that may make cold weather starting more difficult. As Finland is a bit north of the equator, I'd think the results may be disappointing .

Title: Re: Ethanol
Post by HAPPYDAN on 02/14/18 at 11:56:18

Available sources of non-ethanol gasoline include airports (100LowLead) and marinas. But expect to pay ridiculous prices for it! The low compression S40/Savage can run just fine on regular, so those sources are likely higher octane and expensive overkill.

Title: Re: Ethanol
Post by kojones on 02/14/18 at 12:48:31

7073667F737C262A120 wrote:

I don't ride when it's cold, so that's fine.

Title: Re: Ethanol
Post by GT61 TURBO ZX14 on 02/14/18 at 14:08:09

7773767372796F1C0 wrote:

You will just have to rejet it I have done it to lawn mowers weed wackers lawn tractors stock cars modified cars turbo cars roots blower cars bikes you name it we've played with it it's fun to test stuff and just play with it

Title: Re: Ethanol
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 02/14/18 at 15:41:12

a fast looking muffler

That's a good start, but you need to paint it red or a vibrant yellow.
Those are the fastest colors.
I can't Believe you don't know that.

Title: Re: Ethanol
Post by norm92de on 02/14/18 at 15:57:35

One thing I do know. If I had alcohol fuel in my aeroplane, it wouldn't go anywhere near as far as it would on gasoline. The sudden silence is a bit disappointing :'(

Title: Re: Ethanol
Post by batman on 02/14/18 at 20:38:03

100 octane AV gas is great if your bike runs at 8000ft an you want to cruise at a steady 3400 rpm ,if not ,don't bother. "I wouldn't mind E85 so my bike will run cooler" it won't! when you jet up 33% to replace the power you lost ,you'll have the same combustion temperatures, and half the mileage. why bother?

Title: Re: Ethanol
Post by kojones on 02/15/18 at 08:01:48

0201140D010E5458600 wrote:

100 why bother?

Because it's better for the environment. The E85 they sell in Finland is made of waste. Marginally cheaper to use than gas, too.

Title: Re: Ethanol
Post by Dave on 02/15/18 at 08:25:40

6E6A6F6A6B6076050 wrote:

Because it's better for the environment. The E85 they sell in Finland is made of waste. Marginally cheaper to use than gas, too.

Converting your Savage to run on ethanol or E85 is far beyond the ability of most of us on this forum. I feel that trying to run E85 in an engine with 8.5:1 compression is going to significantly reduce the power and mpg you can expect....and it will likely start and run poorly. (I have a friend that runs 100% ethanol in his drag race car - and he and all the others in his class need to squirt gasoline down the carb to get the engine to start). You would probably need to raise the compression ration up to the 14:1 kind of numbers that start to make ethanol performance reasonable. I seriously doubt the stock starter motor can overcome that kind of compression......on my 10.5:1 compression Savage engine the starter can't get the engine over TDC if the engine happens to be on the compression stroke when you hit the starter button.

The other issue that is of concern to me - is that ethanol is corrosive to aluminum and steel. Cars/trucks that are built to run E85 have fuel systems that are not bothered by ethanol.....your Savage does not have anything to protect the fuel tank or float bowl from ethanol.

If you want to continue down this path....you need to do a lot of reading and planning, and you might want to get a second bike so you have something to ride while you are experimenting.

Do a search...and you can find a lot of reading material.

http://www.hotrod.com/articles/ccrp-0611-e85-ethanol-fuel-test/

http://www.onallcylinders.com/2015/11/20/ask-away-with-jeff-smith-what-is-safe-effective-compression-ratio-for-e85/

Title: Re: Ethanol
Post by batman on 02/15/18 at 09:06:30

I have a question, how much pollution does a ethanol processing plant put out? is E85 really better for the planet ? Or are we just robbing Peter to pay Paul. while burning alcohol does slow global warming, it also adds more hydrocarbons (smog) again robbing Peter to pay Paul. So it begs the last question,would you rather use sun block or drag an oxygen tank everywhere you go?

Title: Re: Ethanol
Post by kojones on 02/15/18 at 11:48:52

407B7661707C67617A727F60130 wrote:

[quote author=6E6A6F6A6B6076050 link=1518053304/30#36 date=1518710508]Because it's better for the environment. The E85 they sell in Finland is made of waste. Marginally cheaper to use than gas, too.

Title: Re: Ethanol
Post by kojones on 02/15/18 at 11:51:27

47445148444B111D250 wrote:

If the ethanol is made of waste it's much better than gasoline, but I don't know the situation elsewhere.

Title: Re: Ethanol
Post by Dave on 02/15/18 at 13:17:21

4E4A4F4A4B4056250 wrote:

If the ethanol is made of waste it's much better than gasoline, but I don't know the situation elsewhere.

The ethanol issue is a bit controversial. Ethanol is made form corn in the US, and the farmers use diesel fuel to do the planting, harvesting and transportation of the corn.....then more energy is needed to process the corn into ethanol. Some folks claim it takes more energy to make the ethanol than it returns.....and the cost of the ethanol is subsidized by the US Government to make it cost less at the pump, and they are using our tax dollars to help finance a money losing scheme (in an effort to reduce the US dependency on foreign oil and satisfy the EPA lobbyist). The ethanol is also supposed to burn cleaner (but I don't know if they take into account the tractors and trucks and plants it took to grow the corn and convert it to ethanol. It is kind of ironic that the machinery used to create the ethanol uses other fossil fuels in the process.

Title: Re: Ethanol
Post by norm92de on 02/15/18 at 16:58:39

I used to use 87 octane avgas in my bike when I got it free. It ran very well but I did not check the fuel consumption.

Now that is not an option because I have to pay for it and the FBOs are charging a fortune for 100LL

Avgas 80/87 used to be comparable to motor fuel but not any more. :'(

Title: Re: Ethanol
Post by norm92de on 02/15/18 at 17:00:06

I still think ethanol is a cruel joke on the consumer!

Title: Re: Ethanol
Post by ArkansasBrian on 02/15/18 at 17:25:41

The EPA has nothing to do with ethanol requirements. That's all Dept of Ag and Agribusiness lobbyists. They're also the ones pushing the BS "cleaner option" argument. It can be done well in other places, but not when you grow corn for it.

Title: Re: Ethanol
Post by batman on 02/15/18 at 19:57:57

I know of no ethanol made from Waste! it's made from crops that contain sugar ,usually corn or sugarcane. gas (not gasoline) produced from waste is methane ,similar to propane.

Title: Re: Ethanol
Post by GT61 TURBO ZX14 on 02/15/18 at 21:28:02

Oh my God you guys are acting like these are Big fuel guzzling bikes that get bad gas mileage it don't matter what it cost for fuel put the gas in and ride it and have fun. I'll dyno on my motor on E85 and pump gas when I get it together and hopefully post the results E85 is nice it's available

Title: Re: Ethanol
Post by zipidachimp on 02/15/18 at 22:00:55

opinion: anyone making gasoline(ethanol) from food crops should be jailed! cheers! 8-)

Title: Re: Ethanol
Post by GT61 TURBO ZX14 on 02/15/18 at 22:19:47

:-[quote author=36253C25282D2F2425213C4C0 link=1518053304/45#47 date=1518760855]opinion: anyone making gasoline(ethanol) from food crops should be jailed! cheers! 8-)[/quote]

They ain't food crops the coin cannot be ate until it's processed it still tastes like s*** they do not use edible corn unless there's extra left over from the harvesting my family is a bunch of farmers in southern Minnesota and Iowa

Title: Re: Ethanol
Post by zipidachimp on 02/15/18 at 23:39:05

must be a larger market for gas than booze! 8-)

Title: Re: Ethanol
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 02/16/18 at 09:51:23

They replaced food crops
They are spending fuel and water to raise stuff
Just
To make alcohol

Title: Re: Ethanol
Post by batman on 02/17/18 at 11:31:30

The bottom line is that there is no advantage either ,financial ,environmental or in performance of E-85 fuel in a normally aspirated motor. To the Savage having a 2.8 gallon gas tank, Ethanol presents an even greater disadvantage in it's lower mileage.

Title: Re: Ethanol
Post by GT61 TURBO ZX14 on 02/17/18 at 14:01:05

47445148444B111D250 wrote:

But it's fun trying new things

Title: Re: Ethanol
Post by batman on 02/17/18 at 14:50:52

It's is fun trying new things ,but to me they need to at least try to improve the bike not degrade it.

Title: Re: Ethanol
Post by GT61 TURBO ZX14 on 02/17/18 at 15:09:20

4B485D4448471D11290 wrote:

It's is fun trying new things ,but to me they need to at least try to improve the bike not degrade it.

If you can advance the timing on this bike on corn it will make more power

Title: Re: Ethanol
Post by batman on 02/17/18 at 15:45:50

If you advance the timing on gas, it will also make more power, what's the point? That corn is better, or that advancing the timing will give you more power?

Title: Re: Ethanol
Post by hotrod on 02/17/18 at 19:05:46

Knowing that the crop will be sold for ethanol, the corn is a poor quality, not meant to eat product. Remember that all that land once produced food for us to eat. IMO, the ethanol in gas is the biggest hoax of our lives. Wish it wasn't so. Follow the money.

Title: Re: Ethanol
Post by GT61 TURBO ZX14 on 02/17/18 at 19:30:17

2C2F3A232F207A764E0 wrote:

If you advance the timing on gas, it will also make more power, what's the point? That corn is better, or that advancing the timing will give you more power?

Lol wow obviously you got it all figured out with all your years of experience making power

Title: Re: Ethanol
Post by GT61 TURBO ZX14 on 02/17/18 at 19:31:58

537A76767E692A1B0 wrote:

I don't care about what's a hoax and all that mumbo-jumbo stuff I like the fact that it cools the motor and I can make more power but it takes twice as much but yes E85 does work best with Boost or nitrous but you can see gains if you can advance the timing on these motors you can advance it a lot more on corn than you can on pump gas and was corn you don't have to worry about detonation that much when it gets hot because it'll be cool in the motor cuz you're putting in twice as much plus it's a 105 motor octane

Title: Re: Ethanol
Post by norm92de on 02/17/18 at 20:45:02

I own an S40, so who gives a rats.

If I wanted to go fast I wouldn't try to do it on a savage!!! There are so many engine designs out there that without stupid ETHANOL it would be easy to blast past our poor little bike.

Give it up mate! ::)

Title: Re: Ethanol
Post by batman on 02/17/18 at 21:11:23

Title: Re: Ethanol
Post by GT61 TURBO ZX14 on 02/17/18 at 22:22:16

72736E71252E78791C0 wrote:

Your right that's why I have a turbo zx14 making 660hp that's 80ci motor that's 1352cc making 660hp I build things for fun and because I can mate ::)
I wish people on her would quit telling me to buy another bike that's faster or quit wasting my time I bought the fastest bike on the market which was a ZX-14 and built it and turboed it and I got another one on nitrous this is what I do and I do it well that's why I got other bikes souped up I do this for a living you guys do this as a hobby

Title: Re: Ethanol
Post by GT61 TURBO ZX14 on 02/17/18 at 22:24:30

6162776E626D373B030 wrote:

ZX_14, Actually I do have the knowledge ,IF you could advance the timing on a stock Savage by 4 degrees ,all you have to do is change from using 87 to using 89 octane gas to avoid detonation .(1 point in octane for each 2 degrees of advance) I must say I'm surprised that a master engine builder like yourself ,with the "I know how to do it " attitude wouldn't know that! If you did a bit of research you'd find that people have found a way to advance the valve timing by only 1.5 degrees and the spark timing by only about 3 degrees, so your 105 octane can 't be fully used.
The fact that you think your motor would run cooler on corn is just another one of your misconceptions . Only the intake passage and the fuel charge is cooled ,and it needs to be if you have to inject 33% more fuel into the same space, but when it ignites having the same power as gas it creates the same ignition temperature ,the motor doesn't run any cooler.

LOL yeah because every motor works the same quit reading a book you don't know nothing until you get it on the dyno no two Motors are exactly the same but you should know this I'm done talking with you have a nice day

Title: Re: Ethanol
Post by batman on 02/17/18 at 22:29:11

Well I haven't heard of you selling one yet so it's either a hobby or you must be starving. (it's probably your dad's bike anyway)Besides I don't really care this isn't the ZX-14 site it's Suzikisavage.com

Title: Re: Ethanol
Post by GT61 TURBO ZX14 on 02/17/18 at 22:31:52

4546534A4649131F270 wrote:

Well I haven't heard of you selling one yet so it's either a hobby or you must be starving. Besides I don't really care this isn't the ZX-14 site it's Suzikisavage.com

I don't sell bikes for a living I build them

What I want to know is all this talk about 1 degree for each Mountain all this stuff in that where's your Dyno proof show me Dyno slips.

Title: Re: Ethanol
Post by batman on 02/17/18 at 22:41:16

READ IT AGAIN ::) I base my statements on research ,I could cite it but if you read it you still wouldn't believe it so I won't waste the time it would take. I said "IF" you could advance the timing ,then went on to show that you can't. How can you dyno something that can't be done DUH!

Title: Re: Ethanol
Post by jcstokes on 02/17/18 at 22:59:54

Somewhere on this site, I think I posted a photo of an Ethanol service station, somewhere in your Corn Belt in 1931. Last night I read an interesting article on Ethanol by a historian , Professor Kovics or some such name. He dealt with the use of Ethanol as a fuel or fuel mix from the 1890's to about the 1940's. I'd post the site if I could remember it.

Title: Re: Ethanol
Post by GT61 TURBO ZX14 on 02/18/18 at 02:44:03

7172677E727D272B130 wrote:

Do you have any dyno information?

Title: Re: Ethanol
Post by GT61 TURBO ZX14 on 02/18/18 at 02:45:14

5D544443585C5244370 wrote:

Everything use to be on ethanol even when the Harley-Davidson built their first motorcycle that ran on ethanol

Title: Re: Ethanol
Post by norm92de on 02/18/18 at 07:45:01

GT61,
Some of the "amateur/hobbyists" on this site have produced really fine work, don't sell them short. I only wish I were included in that group.

If you think your abilities are superior please demonstrate. Otherwise...

Title: Re: Ethanol
Post by batman on 02/18/18 at 19:22:53

Although the 1903 HD motorcycle and the 1908 Ford model T could run on ethanol or an ethanol/gas mix, I would hardly doubt that they ever did . The very first to add any ethanol to it's gas to raise octane was The Standard Oil Co. in 1920 . Gasoline had been around since 1871.

Title: Re: Ethanol
Post by GT61 TURBO ZX14 on 02/19/18 at 00:10:10

:-X
5B584D5458570D01390 wrote:

A lot of people back in the day that were making moonshine we're running it as gasoline also some of them were even running it come there because they are filling the gas tanks brand gas tanks full of the stuff and running on it to get to where they needed to go and then siphoning it out to sell

Title: Re: Ethanol
Post by GT61 TURBO ZX14 on 02/19/18 at 00:12:48

7E7F627D29227475100 wrote:

I know and I ant but I always prove my stuff and people hate it but I don't care I do it because I love to work on stuff it's fun

Title: Re: Ethanol
Post by Dave on 02/19/18 at 06:19:32

The availability of fuel in the early part of the 1900's was not great......and alternate fuels were often used. The alternate fuels were not used because they were better - but because they were locally available. Some early tractors and farm engines were made to run on either gasoline or kerosene - the kerosene was readily available as it was used in lamps stoves and heaters. There were also stationary engines that ran off natural gas....and in some cities they made "producer gas" and piped it to customers....producer gas was made by taking the fumes from partially burned wood or coal and piping it to the customers (and I believe the leftover solids became coke and charcoal). I am not sure what the ethanol was used for back then - but if it was more readily available than gasoline they may have used it in some engines....I believe there were Sterling cycle engines that used flame from alcohol burners.

Here is an interesting list of some events:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_alcohol_fuel

For me, there is no reason to fuss around with ethanol or E85. My bike was built to run on gasoline, it runs fine on gasoline, gasoline is readily available and for the moment is is pretty affordable, and my bike makes all the power that I need and gets decent fuel mileage. I find more pleasure from riding my bike than I do from spending good riding time experimenting with alternate fuels.
This is the Rubber Side Down section......it is supposed to be used for discussions about the Savage and topics related to the repair and operation of the Savage.......not of general discussions of ethanol vs. gasoline. If you want to run ethanol in your bike and you have the ability to make it happen.....cool. I don't suggest that you promote it as a better fuel or suggest that others make the switch......until you have successfully done so and proven that it works (and works well). I don't believe a single dyno run or a month of testing is proof of success - it needs to be a long enough period to show the bike will start and run reliably.
http://www.ethanolproducer.com/articles/4874/cruisin-on-e85

If you want to continue the ethanol/gasoline discussion.....I can move this thread to the Cafe' section.

If you want to post your progress of questions on converting your Savage to run on E85 or ethanol....I can leave the thread here in the RSD.

Carry on.........

Title: Re: Ethanol
Post by batman on 02/19/18 at 09:33:40

Dave ,you were close ,"consumer gas" was made by the fumes driven off of coke ,in ovens, when natural gas was not available.(there were no major gas transport lines ,gas had to be produced on location) It's first use was for street lighting in cities ,and later buildings and homes, before the use of electricity. Moonshiners may well have run their cars on alcohol ,but I think people in urban areas would have rather drank it,and used gas in their cars . the combustion ratio of the model T was 4.5 :1.

Title: Re: Ethanol
Post by Dave on 02/19/18 at 10:05:31

3E3D28313D3268645C0 wrote:

Dave ,you were close ,"consumer gas" was made by the fumes driven off of coke ,in ovens

Well I was close........coal is used to make coke.....and producer gas was made using the coke derived from the coal.

From Wikepedia:

Coke is a fuel with few impurities and a high carbon content, usually made from coal. It is the solid carbonaceous material derived from destructive distillation of low-ash, low-sulphur bituminous coal. Cokes made from coal are grey, hard, and porous. While coke can be formed naturally, the commonly used form is synthetic. The form known as petroleum coke, or pet coke, is derived from oil refinery coker units or other cracking processes.

Coke is used in preparation of producer gas which is a mixture of carbon monoxide (CO) and nitrogen (N2). Producer gas is produced by passing air over red-hot coke. Coke is also used to manufacture water gas.

Are you ready to let this thread go back to being a Savage related topic? :-? (Please)

Title: Re: Ethanol
Post by batman on 02/19/18 at 16:54:08

Yes I am!

Title: Re: Ethanol
Post by GT61 TURBO ZX14 on 02/19/18 at 17:31:40

Cool

Title: Re: Ethanol
Post by Dave on 02/19/18 at 17:57:49

I meant to include this link in my above post......I missed doing so.

This Harley is fuel injected and it has been remapped, and the computer can make changes to allow premium to be used when E85 is not available. Unfortunately this same option isn't going to work on the Savage with a carb, and jetting for E85 is going to make gasoline no longer an option (the engine will likely run dangerously lean). This Harley was already converted to be high compression - but they don't say what ratio.

It is a shame he doesn't have a temperature gauge to reflect his opinion that the bike runs cooler......or any proof that the bike makes more power.

http://www.ethanolproducer.com/articles/4874/cruisin-on-e85

I am not promoting your use of E85.....but if you feel the need to experiment in the garage instead of just going riding - have at it.

Title: Re: Ethanol
Post by GT61 TURBO ZX14 on 02/19/18 at 20:37:41

665D5047565A41475C545946350 wrote:

I have already experimenting with E85 on cars bikes dirt bikes motorcycles lawn mowers drag cars streetcars I put it in just about every engine out there if you get it right it'll run cooler and it does make a little more torque but not much when the Motor stock but when you raise the compression you will make more power small block Chevy she makes about 10 to 15 foot pounds torque more just by swapping to E85 Moss motor rebuild for a buddy of mine we downloaded on gas swap it over to E85 in the motor made on gas and made 598 horse 510 foot pounds of torque switched it to E85 it made both the same horsepower little more 600 I think but it did go to 600 foot pounds of torque that motor was 14 .5.1 street motor he drives up everyday in the summer horse gram 350 horse and nitrous to it on corn makes more power then I did on gas that's just one of the recent Motors I've done

Title: Re: Ethanol
Post by Dave on 02/20/18 at 03:14:43

OK....enough about theory and other cars/bikes.

Keep us informed about the Savage related ethanol progress.

Title: Re: Ethanol
Post by GT61 TURBO ZX14 on 03/16/18 at 20:24:06

Title: Re: Ethanol
Post by old.indian on 03/19/18 at 17:44:00

This came up today..
https://www.hemmings.com/blog/2018/03/19/with-rfs-reform-bills-congressmen-intend-to-preserve-market-for-ethanol-free-fuel/?refer=news

Title: Re: Ethanol
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 03/19/18 at 19:41:41

It's time to stop the stupid