SuzukiSavage.com - 2007 S40 Thinking About Mods

batman

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Re: 2007 S40 Thinking About Mods
Reply #30 - 03/29/17 at 14:54:53

My old 95 will do 90 mph with just a Dyna ,spacer mod and carb tuning,and a140/90/15 tire. I'm not readyto spend the money it takes to go 10 mph faster,and if you think a chain conversion is saveing you money on fuel that's wrong ,for any added miles mpg is offset buy the higher price of the high octane fuel you'll need to burn and if your doing under 60mph your in 4th gear passing up the reduction you'd have in 5th .If you can't stand the higher vibs ,you need to buy a bike with more cylinders.

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Re: 2007 S40 Thinking About Mods
Reply #31 - 03/30/17 at 04:31:06

batman wrote on 03/28/17 at 21:01:13:

R1-cowboy ,I like your list of mods ,except the last one,I believe going to chain drive may be counter productive for the use you intend.the TDI ignition has about 5 degrees of advance which plays out at about 5000 RPM (that's about 80 mph in 5th gear) ,unless you think you'll be going faster in the twisties ,going to a higher ratio with chain drive may hurt your performance.

The Savage has 5 degrees of advance below 2,000 rpm.....then the advance increases as the rpm rises.....up to about 30 degrees total advance. This means that as the rpm increases, the ignition advances to provide the spark at the proper time. It is not computerized with knock and temperature sensors like a modern fuel injected engine - but the technology is about equal to the CV carb in sophistication. You can cruse at 3,500 or 4,000 rpm quite nicely....the engine doesn't suffer in any way, as the engine is designed to run well at any rpm between idle and redline.

We have 2 sources for the ignition advance curve. One is the Suzuki Shop Manual:

Reelthing wrote on 11/24/08 at 08:00:15:

The LS650 SSM lists the ignition timing @5deg btdc below 2k rpm and 30deg btdc above 4k rpm - we've never had plot posted here of the actual curve (that I remember).

Another member used a signal generator and oscilloscope to figure out what the advance curve was. He admitted his equipment was a bit old and there could be some inaccuracy in his results - but he found that the advance kicked in after 2,000 rpm, and that it advanced pretty quickly up between 2,000 - 5,000.....and then leveled out. His results are pretty much in agreement with what the Suzuki Shop Manual says - however it does not provide actual values for the amount of the advance:

ratz wrote on 05/27/10 at 19:53:37:

I'm playing with the CDI on my '96.
My first try showed an advance curve that ramped up fairly quickly from 2000 RPM through 5000 RPM,then kind of leveled out from there to 7000 RPM.
I didn't see the timing retard,as was referred to earlier in this thread,it just didn't advance much at that point.
I didn't try anything above 7000 RPM,think I might on the next couple of tries,just for giggles.

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Re: 2007 S40 Thinking About Mods
Reply #32 - 03/30/17 at 05:15:01

batman wrote on 03/29/17 at 14:54:53:

My old 95 will do 90 mph with just a Dyna ,spacer mod and carb tuning,and a140/90/15 tire. I'm not ready to spend the money it takes to go 10 mph faster,and if you think a chain conversion is saveing you money on fuel that's wrong ,for any added miles mpg is offset buy the higher price of the high octane fuel you'll need to burn and if your doing under 60mph your in 4th gear passing up the reduction you'd have in 5th .If you can't stand the higher vibs ,you need to buy a bike with more cylinders.

Batman:

You and I sure are at odds over this gearing issue. It is not about getting a higher top speed or faster acceleration. The goal is to be able to reduce the engine rpm a little bit when cruising on the highway. It is a change that works very well and many of the members on the forum have changed their gearing (either by the Kawasaki pulley conversion or by going to a chain and sprockets)...and they are happy with the results as it makes the Savage better suited to their riding needs. It would have been nice if Suzuki made the ratio between 4th and 5th gear a little bit wider and we wouldn't have to consider the gearing change - unfortunately they didn't.....and changing the final drive ratio and rear tire diameter is the fastest/easiest/cheapest way to get it done. Making a gearing change of 8-10% isn't a drastic change and it only drops the engine rpm a few hundred rpm - but that small reduction in rpm is enough to make the ride more peaceful and help to reduce the oil loss/consumption that occurs when the engine is run for sustained periods over 4,000 rpm. The engine doesn't overheat as a result of the lower rpm - in fact when I made the change my engine temperature dropped 20 degrees when I tried a sustained 70 mph test run on a 90 degree summer day. The members with stock engines don't have to switch to premium fuel as a result of the gearing change....the 8:5:1 compression ratio runs fine on regular fuel with our without a gearing change. When in the lower gears the bike pretty much rides just like they used to.....the rpm that provided 35mph with the old gearing will now be 38 mph, the old 45 mph will now be 49 mph....the 12 mph speed in 1st gear though the parking lot that used to require 2,113 rpm will now be 1,945 rpm.

I believe that R1_Cowboy will accomplish exactly what he wants with a gearing change......a bike that is more relaxed at highway speeds.

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batman

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Re: 2007 S40 Thinking About Mods
Reply #33 - 03/30/17 at 11:24:44

Dave ,I was all wet about the timing (Brain fart)but RC's post was about more performance on twisty mountain roads ,not the super slab.we all should be able to agree that the mods he listed would vastly improve the way the bike runs over stock,except the higher gear change I would think that the closer ratio of the stock bike would better serve him in the twisties ,he said nothing about highway riding in his post.

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justin_o_guy2 Serious Thumper Offline What happened? Posts: 55279 East Texas, 1/2 dallas/la.	Re: 2007 S40 Thinking About Mods Reply #34 - 03/30/17 at 11:32:35 I just did the front pulley. It's different. I keep it in second a bit longer. And third, in later, into fourth later. But the bike will Do everything it did before. There's nothing to force anyone to change gears so soon that it can't pull.
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Re: 2007 S40 Thinking About Mods
Reply #35 - 03/30/17 at 11:48:59

batman wrote on 03/30/17 at 11:24:44:

Dave. RC's post was about more performance on twisty mountain roads ,not the super slab.we all should be able to agree that the mods he listed would vastly improve the way the bike runs over stock,I would think that the closer ratio of the stock bike would better serve him in the twisties ,he said nothing about highway riding.

Absolutely......the stock gearing is the way to go if you are going to run around on curvy mountain roads.. That is likely the reason you and I weren't thinking the same, as I felt he was satisfied withe the performance in the mountains - but was looking for a bit better manners on the highway.

The first post was confusing about what he was after. Later on he did some clarification that I interpret as being a gearing change to make the bike better suited on those rides where they got out on the open highway.

R1_Cowboy wrote on 03/28/17 at 12:37:09:

Thanks everyone for your input, just to clarify dad has been riding for ever!! This is not his first rodeo...

The goal of the top end improvement is to change the rpm and power range at highway cruising speeds.

Several of us have done gearing changes to allow better manners on the highway - and yet the lower gears still provide plenty of thrills in the mountains and curves. In fact the performance in the twisties might be a bit better, as you don't need to shift as often.

Serowbot tried the Kawasaki pulley, and didn't like it for his riding as it changed all the shift points away from what he was used to. MMRanch likes his for long trips - but his CMA group rides in parades and the taller first gear gets him going faster than the other fellows. There are 3 of us (me, MMRanch and badwolf) that have done the double Kawasaki conversion....and this is a really big change in gearing (12.15%) - and it does make for a very nice cruising speed at the expense of acceleration......5th gear does become the gear you use for speeds over 60, and the bike runs out of power to pull that gear around 85mph - if you want to go faster you have to shift to 4th and get the rpm up.

The change in gearing that falls in the 8% range really does make the Savage a better "all around" bike.

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batman Serious Thumper Offline SuzukiSavage.com Rocks! Posts: 3806 osceola new york Gender:	Re: 2007 S40 Thinking About Mods Reply #36 - 03/30/17 at 11:56:38 JOG but a stock bike will accelerate faster.
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Re: 2007 S40 Thinking About Mods
Reply #37 - 03/30/17 at 12:49:53

Math time:

The primary drive of the LS650 is 1.8100 and 5th gear of a stock LS650 has a gear ratio of 0.8846. With my 18/52 sprockets (2.889 ratio) and 130/70-18 tire, the final drive ratio is 4.6256. This results in the following speeds at the shown rpms:

30 mph = 1,854
40 mph = 2,473
50 mph = 3,091
60 mph = 3,709
70 mph = 4,327
80 mph = 4,945

This compares to the OEM tire (140/80-15) and stock secondary gearing (23/68):

30 mph = 2,005
40 mph = 2,674
50 mph = 3,342
60 mph = 4,010
70 mph = 4,679
80 mph = 5,347

This is a 300-400 rpm difference at the higher freeway speeds. That difference is felt via reduced vibration. Even with the more relaxed gearing, my bike will accelerate faster because of the 60-70 pound weight reduction - and because I'm at the controls

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batman Serious Thumper Offline SuzukiSavage.com Rocks! Posts: 3806 osceola new york Gender:	Re: 2007 S40 Thinking About Mods Reply #38 - 03/30/17 at 14:25:17 Looks like If your doing 60 I can slow to 55 an feel the same relaxed vibration?
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justin_o_guy2 Serious Thumper Offline What happened? Posts: 55279 East Texas, 1/2 dallas/la.	Re: 2007 S40 Thinking About Mods Reply #39 - 03/30/17 at 15:48:48 Just don't do it..
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Gary_in_NJ Serious Thumper Offline LS650 Cafe Racer Posts: 2633 Amongst the Twisty Roads	Re: 2007 S40 Thinking About Mods Reply #40 - 03/31/17 at 13:23:09 batman wrote on 03/30/17 at 14:25:17: Looks like If your doing 60 I can slow to 55 an feel the same relaxed vibration? Slow down 5 mph? No one has ever done that.
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batman Serious Thumper Offline SuzukiSavage.com Rocks! Posts: 3806 osceola new york Gender:	Re: 2007 S40 Thinking About Mods Reply #41 - 03/31/17 at 18:06:27 I wouldn't feel the need to .I did always wonder if anyone who went to bigger piston had ever tried to measure the difference in weight between them and a stock piston?It seems certain that no one ever made an adjustment to the counterbalance shaft if there is a difference,maybe these motors have more vibration.
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Re: 2007 S40 Thinking About Mods
Reply #42 - 03/31/17 at 20:26:16

If your goal is to make the bike a better cruiser (lower rpms and maybe more fuel tank size) than maybe give my thread on my wife's bike a read. This was my attempt to build what I thought would be a better S40 for putting on more than the 20 mile Saturday boulevard run.

http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1453341892

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zipidachimp Serious Thumper Offline SuzukiSavage.com Rocks! Posts: 1411 surrey, b.c. Gender:	Re: 2007 S40 Thinking About Mods Reply #43 - 03/31/17 at 23:16:58 R1 Cowboy: Hi, where are you, I'm in Surrey. Did the mountains last year in a civic, this year on a bike. Cheers!
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Re: 2007 S40 Thinking About Mods
Reply #44 - 04/01/17 at 03:12:03

batman wrote on 03/31/17 at 18:06:27:

I wouldn't feel the need to .I did always wonder if anyone who went to bigger piston had ever tried to measure the difference in weight between them and a stock piston?It seems certain that no one ever made an adjustment to the counterbalance shaft if there is a difference,maybe these motors have more vibration.

I have weighed the piston, and the difference is very small.....the forged Wiseco is machined differently than the stock piston - so they can cut the weight down even though it is a larger piston. I had those weights written down on a sticky note stuck to my bulletin board at work - but I moved to a different office and I threw it away when I moved.

At steady speeds the Wiseco doesn't make any more vibration - under hard acceleration I can feel the power pulses are stronger......and the compression braking is stronger.

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