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Harley Muffler and Exhaust Theory (Read 450 times)
cheapnewb24
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Re: Harley Muffler and Exhaust Theory
Reply #30 - 12/02/15 at 13:29:15
 
1 click on the enrichment knob increases rpm with the stock muffler. Just think how lean it would be with the Harley muffler? To beat all, I have already adjusted the idle screw. How worse would it be with the Harley muffler, factory jet, and factory idle settings?  Shocked
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Re: Harley Muffler and Exhaust Theory
Reply #31 - 12/02/15 at 14:03:31
 
From what I've seen so far on YT, the Raask exhaust is a dragpipe. How come there is no mid-range loss on the dyno test I referenced? Is the idea of midrange loss with dragpipes flawed, or are big singles immune to this? Are the rpms to low to cause the effect? Am I missing something here?
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Re: Harley Muffler and Exhaust Theory
Reply #32 - 12/02/15 at 14:08:00
 
cheapnewb24 wrote on 12/02/15 at 13:29:15:
1 click on the enrichment knob increases rpm with the stock muffler.


If you are moving the enrichment knob when the bike has just been started and is not fully warmed up....that increase in speed at one click is to be expected.  When up to full temperature the bike should slow down when you pull out the enrichment knob if the carb is clean, and the fuel mixture screw has been properly adjusted.

There will no noticeable difference of the fuel mixture at idle if you change the muffler....the engine is not working hard enough to build up any pressure in exhaust system.
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Re: Harley Muffler and Exhaust Theory
Reply #33 - 12/02/15 at 14:12:48
 
You know that I at RPM, there is a gulp, stop,gulp,stop,of air running through the carb. You're all familiar with the
Suck on a skinny straw in a malt
thing.
What I've read said that the volume of the air box, behind the filter, needs to be at least as big as the gulp. Now, IF the intake was designed to allow for a moving column of air to be set up so that the moving column was approaching the carb at the same time as it was ready for that gulp of air, then the cylinder would get a better charge. That would be pretty RPM range limited potential positive power boost, and, again, it's not gonna just unleash the Beast, because it's not gonna Be a beast, but, I believe that if someone wants to drag everything out of what it can be, then there is a potential idea. I did increase the volume of my air box, but, I didn't test anything beforehand, I didn't do any mods scientifically and I can't prove anything, any One thing, did X increase in performance.
IIRC, I did the cam, carb, exhaust and air box all at the same time.
I got really close to six second zero to sixty times, maybe even Did, it's hard to ride and time stuff.. And after I hit second, it was just throttle and shift, when the rate of acceleration started to taper off, I'd grab a gear.
The innerneck is a Huge library. It's NOT all porn. Intake manifold theory is out there.
I should've done some exhaust work on the head.
I'm Not saying the time spent on exhaust system flow isn't smart.
Pulses of air are moving down the pipe, ideally, having a pulse leaving and creating a low pressure event in the pipe to make exhaust gasses have a place to go reduces the power required to Shove them out.
Again, That ideal moment would be most effective in a limited RPM range. It would take a smart guy to actually design that stuff and the potential gains are likely not even close to worth the effort.
We have guys who have proven certain things and are getting the performance that the frame geometry, brakes, everything, will really deal with. It's not a beast, but, it will Whoop it across town and zip through traffic and look and sound good with just an exhaust system and a cam. Including in that,
The cheapest and most effective immediately realized power gain is losing weight.

I Wish I had done it scientifically.. I regret that .
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Re: Harley Muffler and Exhaust Theory
Reply #34 - 12/02/15 at 15:28:59
 
I bet that if there is a change to be made in the main jet, I will only notice it after adjusting the needle jet. That's why I am not noticing a problem with the main jet.
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Re: Harley Muffler and Exhaust Theory
Reply #35 - 12/02/15 at 17:47:22
 
Apparently you've read the carb tuning guide. Just tune the bike to run well and enjoy it. That's all you can really hope for. Who cares what the A/F ratio is or even if it's at stoichiometric. You can tell by how the bike runs. Just jet it like the tuning guide says. Once it stops surging at speed you can probably stop jetting richer.

Or.....
Go to a shop with a dyno and tune with that. Dave tuned his with an AFR gauge and got real close to what everyone else was doing. In other words, tune it by ear (or seat of the pants) and you're golden!

Wink
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Re: Harley Muffler and Exhaust Theory
Reply #36 - 12/02/15 at 19:01:10
 
Wouldn't high speed surging be the case when you're going down the road and you feel this ever so slight jerking? You might try to pass it off as little bumps in the road, and say to yourself that maybe it's just the crappy suspension. Am I hitting the nail on the head?
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Re: Harley Muffler and Exhaust Theory
Reply #37 - 12/03/15 at 05:30:34
 
Surging is not something that happens quickly....it won't feel like bumps in the road.  It feels more like when you are pulling a heavy trailer behind a car and the trailer tends to push and pull on the car and it varies the acceleration rate.  It also feels similar to when you are riding in a car with someone else driving....and they just aren't sure if they want to pass that semi truck, and they keep putting their foot on/off the gas pedal a bit while they are trying to make up their mind about passing.

Most bikes have a #145 main jet from the factory, and this generally isn't so lean that any surging will occur under full throttle.

The early bikes had a #47.5 Pilot Jet, and this can be a bit lean, and the later bikes had a #52.5 Pilot Jet - which is plenty rich.

The big problem with the stock carb setup is the slide needle.  The mixture is just too lean when you first start to open the throttle, and several of the bikes I have ridden with the stock jets have a surge when you just start to open the throttle.  When you are riding behind a mini-van in town, or riding past a Police car and riding at a calm rate at low throttle settings......the bike will surge a bit as you shift gears and just open the throttle a little bit.  If you apply a lot of throttle and the get the carb to raise the slide and needle - generally the surging goes away and the bike accelerates smoothly.  The fix for this condition is to remove the stock white spacer and replace it with some #4 machine screw washers....generally 3 works well, for my bikes I still had a slight bit of surge and went to 2 washers and had better luck.

I am not going to get into a long discussion about fuel/air ratios, stoichiometry, etc......but if you want to jet your bike correctly, here is what you do.

The first thing to do is start with a clean carb, there is no reason to try and jet a carb that is dirty, it is a waste of time.  It is also necessary to remove the brass plug over the idle fuel mix screw, and you will need to remove this when you clean the carb and for future adjustments.

The next thing to do is start with some jet sizes that are known to work.  I would start with a #150 main jet, and a #50 pilot jet at your elevation, and 3 washers on top of the slide.

You start by setting the pilot jet....the side of the main jet and the height of the slide needle have no affect on the pilot jet.  When you have found a pilot jet size that works, you won't have to change it when you are adjusting the other jet sizes.  Start with a #50 pilot jet and then set the idle fuel mix screw out 1.5 - 2 turns from lightly seated.  Then start and warm the bike up....adjust the screw as shown in the attached video links (The Savage carb has a fuel screw....not an air screw):
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YxpQjDQzX7g

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zm5mB3R8Ucw

For the Savage CV carb you want the screw to be at 1.5 - 2 turns out.  If the bike runs best at less than 1.5 turns (or if you can turn the screw all the way in and the engine still runs)....the pilot jet is too big and you need to put in a smaller one.  If the screw requires more than 2 turns out, you need a larger pilot jet.  (There is no reason to ever turn the screw out more than 3 turns, as the tapered needle is so far out of the hole that no additional fuel will flow if you go out any farther).

Once the Pilot jet and air screw are set - you can go for a ride and see if the main jet is correct.  You need to find a long stretch of road, and uphill straight is best as it helps to limit the speed and acceleration a bit.  You want to be in high gear and at about 40 mph roll the throttle open all the way and hang on......and the bike should be accelerating smoothly.  If you roll the throttle off slightly and for an instant the bike feels like it runs better - that is an indication the jet is too big.  If you feel surging, that it an indication the jet is too small.  Ideally you keep changing jets and find out which smaller one causes surging and which jet makes the bike too rich - then pick something in between.  I suspect that the #150 is going to run just fine with either the stock or DYNA muffler.

The next thing to set is the slide height.  Put a piece of tape on the throttle grip, and then make marks for full, 1/2, 1/4 and 1/8th open positions.  Go for a ride and warm the bike up, and then go through the gears while opening the throttle up about 1/8th throttle.  If you feel any surging at light throttle settings, then you need to raise the needle by removing one of the washers.  Most folks are fine with 3 of the #4 machine screw washers, at my 500 - 800 feet elevation I have had better luck with just 2 washers.  If you get it too rich the bike become a bit sluggish at light throttle, and makes funny burble sounds when you let off the throttle a little bit.  You want to use enough washers to let the bike accelerate smoothly....don't remove too many or the bike will run too rich and get crappy fuel mileage.

So....that is how you adjust a carb on the Savage.  Look in the Tech Section on Carb cleaning if you need to, buy some Allen Screws for the carb so you can remove the float bowl to change jets with the carb still mounted on the bike, order some jets and a float bowl gasket from Lancer so you have a selection to use, and go at it.  If your bike currently shows no signs of running poorly or surging......you may not need to do any of this as some folks have no problem with the stock jetting (higher altitudes are best for the stock jetting).



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Re: Harley Muffler and Exhaust Theory
Reply #38 - 12/03/15 at 06:11:15
 
Dave, if you didn't read my post, I wish you would. Tell me what,if anything, I have right, wrong, if wrong, why.

Also, I did dissect the header and removed the inner pipe, then had the chromed exterior pipe tigged together. The welder and I got along so well, I put stuff up in his shop, and he charged me zero.
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Re: Harley Muffler and Exhaust Theory
Reply #39 - 12/03/15 at 07:34:17
 
justin_o_guy2 wrote on 12/03/15 at 06:11:15:
Dave, if you didn't read my post, I wish you would. Tell me what,if anything, I have right, wrong, if wrong, why.


JOG....nothing wrong with what you wrote.  I posted what is necessary to jet a stock bike (or bike with muffler swap).  It was not my intent to create a post on engine upgrades.

cheapnewb24 posted this a month ago:

"I am new to motorcycling. I took the MSF Basic course and got my license about a month ago. I got an '04 Savage for locally for $1K as my first bike."

So he has been riding with a license for a couple months.  I really believe he needs to get his bike running well, fix up the parts he broke in his crash a few days ago, and then go out and ride for a while and get some experience and become a competent rider before he starts to be concerned about Kevlar clutch plates, drag pipe exhaust reversion, or modifying the air box for ultimate flow.


 
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Re: Harley Muffler and Exhaust Theory
Reply #40 - 12/03/15 at 12:09:40
 
Alright, that's it! I have a few things to say here. This reminds me of my Dad who helped me buy our 83 Shadow. He kept buying stuff like windshields and saddlebags for it. I just wanted him to just keep it naked and ride it. The idea was that I would pay for part and he would pay the other part. Eventually, it got to the point that I wanted to pay my half in order to keep him from messing with the bike. For that reason, amongst others, he decided to put the bike in his name and not let me pay for it. Funny thing is that he doesn't even have his learner's permit yet, much less his license, and he's in his mid 60's Roll Eyes.

Anyway, now the shoe is on the other foot. I am entertaining the idea of tinkering and talking about physics and theory, you know, all that interesting stuff, and now I am being told, especially by Dave, to just forget about it and ride. Do x, y, and z, and ride--- we're not going to talk about the rest. Well... considering that I have been laying around the house with a cold recovering from my mildly injured knee in the mildly chilly, wet November weather, does it surprise you that I am not riding? For goodness sakes, I just learned that I am off from work over this cold. I work at a restaurant, and I am not allowed to work with a contagious disease. Ehhh... What the heck, I was only going to work 2 days this week anyway. I usually get 3 days and around 10 hours per week anyway, and that's at minimum wage. Yeah, It sucks. Tongue

The point is that thinking about tinkering and theory is kinda fun and keeps the boredom away. I'm used to it. I have considered mechanical engineering often because of it. It's also encouraging to think that there is something to be done to my bike. If it was all said and done, wouldn't that be a bit boring? If you are wondering why I ask so many questions, it is because that is my nature. When I was in college, I used to ask a lot of questions, even to the point of tiring the professors and annoying the students. To beat all, many of my questions were not on the test, if you know what I mean. Wink I guess I liked learning or something of that sort.

This is a forum, where people talk about stuff. If anything, I would think that I would help keep this forum alive. I'm sorry if I am a problem here.

Furthermore, there are certain reasons I ask some of the questions I do. First, with A/F ratios, I want my bike at its optimum. I don't really want to go around polluting the environment and getting crappy gas mileage just to squeeze that extra bit of torque from running rich. That's why I asked that question. As far as Kevlar clutches are concerned, you need to understand my situation. For one thing, the Savage clutch, as we all know, is naturally weak and prone to occasional slippage. For another thing, I will need to open the case sometime soon in order to replace the bad neutral switch, which I have lived with so far. The most important thing that I must do is check the cam chain tensioner to make sure the engine is not preparing to grenade itself Shocked. While I have the exhaust off and the case open, I have the opportunity to work on the clutch. I can either shim it, put in extra plates, kevlar it, change the rod, do something else, or do nothing at all.

I appreciate your take on carb tuning, It's not quite the same old stuff. Some good ideas, like the Allen screws. Those Phillips screws can sure be a pain.

As far as surging is concerned, when its good and warm, I don't notice much of a problem. I assume surging is that "Oh no, I'm running out of gas" feeling. Ya might call it "missing"? Or am I mistaken?

What you describe reminds me of what I call "lurching," where you have a manual transmission machine (car, bike, or whatever) with a short stroke and very short gearing that yanks you back and forth in the lower gears (or med-high gears in low speed machines). I don't think the Savage ever has that problem with the nature of its engine and its gearing. Those little 250s, though, lurch like the dickens, even the EFI ones. Even my EFI Subaru can do that Tongue Gas engines in general seem terrible for it. Diesels don't seem quite as bad for it. Maybe it's the heavier flywheel smoothing things out?

There is the idea put out sometimes that one needs a lower first gear for low speed maneuvers. Turns out that when you get short gearing like that the 250 class uses, you're slipping the clutch just to keep it from jerking you around. Whereas the bigger bikes use the friction zone to slow down and stay smooth. There's really no escape from the friction zone. Of course, that's a discussion for another thread.

Before I joined this forum, I was a lurker. I would visit various forums to gather opinions on various things, but I would never join them. If I remember correctly, I found this forum and went through some of the threads before I ever bought my Savage. If I wanted to go through the same ol'--same ol'. I could have simply read what was already posted. Now there was a particular reason why I joined this forum-- I was having a technical problem and needed help-- but I have found this forum to be pretty fun Smiley. There are times when I can't wait to see the next reply Smiley.
Not wanting to talk about things is a bad sign for a forum. Eventually, people will decide there is nothing left worthwhile to talk about, and then the forum will die Sad. Imagine, nothin' left but a bunch of decade old threads about a simple little motorcycle that was all said and done Wink.

Now, if I'm wasting everyone's time and missing an experiential learning lesson by not just guessing at everything-- if I'm just beating a dead horse-- maybe I should just take what I know and just tinker with it and waste money until I figure something out. After all, that's the old fashioned way Wink. Maybe I'm spoiling all the fun by asking for others' opinions. Maybe I should have done it all by myself Tongue Cheesy

Makes me wonder sometimes, if you know what I mean Roll Eyes
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Re: Harley Muffler and Exhaust Theory
Reply #41 - 12/03/15 at 12:11:08
 
All the science in the world isn't going to tell you what it feels like.  Adding a performance muffler and rejetting accordingly will definitely deliver more HP, but not enough in my opinion, to put this much thought into it.  The rule of thumb is, you need to gain 10% or more HP in order to really make any real difference.  A new muffler and jets will certainly not deliver 10%.  You're not going to even come close until you start looking at mechanical parts (cam, piston, etc).  If you're thinking about that stuff you're either a garage warrior who just loves digging in, or you've got the wrong bike.  New muffler and jets is more of a visceral improvement than anything else, but that's really more important than anything else in my opinion.
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Re: Harley Muffler and Exhaust Theory
Reply #42 - 12/03/15 at 12:32:27
 
Dave wrote on 12/03/15 at 07:34:17:
justin_o_guy2 wrote on 12/03/15 at 06:11:15:
Dave, if you didn't read my post, I wish you would. Tell me what,if anything, I have right, wrong, if wrong, why.


JOG....nothing wrong with what you wrote.  I posted what is necessary to jet a stock bike (or bike with muffler swap).  It was not my intent to create a post on engine upgrades.

cheapnewb24 posted this a month ago:

"I am new to motorcycling. I took the MSF Basic course and got my license about a month ago. I got an '04 Savage for locally for $1K as my first bike."

So he has been riding with a license for a couple months.  I really believe he needs to get his bike running well, fix up the parts he broke in his crash a few days ago, and then go out and ride for a while and get some experience and become a competent rider before he starts to be concerned about Kevlar clutch plates, drag pipe exhaust reversion, or modifying the air box for ultimate flow.


 


Nobody has really tried to explain why the fellow with the Raask drag pipe didn't have a mid-range dip in his torque curve.  Wink I'm waiting... Cool
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Re: Harley Muffler and Exhaust Theory
Reply #43 - 12/03/15 at 12:41:30
 
chzeckmate wrote on 12/03/15 at 12:11:08:
All the science in the world isn't going to tell you what it feels like.  Adding a performance muffler and rejetting accordingly will definitely deliver more HP, but not enough in my opinion, to put this much thought into it.  The rule of thumb is, you need to gain 10% or more HP in order to really make any real difference.  A new muffler and jets will certainly not deliver 10%.  You're not going to even come close until you start looking at mechanical parts (cam, piston, etc).  If you're thinking about that stuff you're either a garage warrior who just loves digging in, or you've got the wrong bike.  New muffler and jets is more of a visceral improvement than anything else, but that's really more important than anything else in my opinion.


You're saying that there will be a noticeable difference in the feel of the bike even though it doesn't show much on a dyno, and that some of the difference will never really be measured powerwise?

FYI, the shop I talked to doesn't even like running his dyno off-season, so I doubt that would even be part of the equation at the moment. Has something to do with running it in typical riding conditions. Well, that probably doesn't mean that I couldn't persuade him to do it anyway. The last time I spoke with him, the dyno wasn't really available. I have never even used a dyno before. That would probably be fun, wouldn't it?
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Re: Harley Muffler and Exhaust Theory
Reply #44 - 12/03/15 at 12:50:51
 
cheapnewb24 wrote on 12/03/15 at 12:32:27:
Nobody has really tried to explain why the fellow with the Raask drag pipe didn't have a mid-range dip in his torque curve.  Wink I'm waiting... Cool


Hate to keep you waiting.

Maybe that sag in the HP curve at 3,750 is the mid range dip.
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