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Engine Rebuild Tips and Opinions (Read 1071 times)
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Re: Engine Rebuild Tips and Opinions
Reply #15 - 03/21/15 at 15:20:53
 
When I got my Savage, it needed a set of piston rings pretty bad. As I was going to pull it apart anyway, I decided to hop it up a bit for fun. I'm running the 96mm piston, stage 3 cam, 36 mm carb with dial-a-jet, and a Raask (a gift from my awesome wife for my birthday).

As was said, it'll never be fast, but it is surprising. For reference, the guys I ride with most have a 650 V-Star, an 883 Sportster, a 1200 sportster, an XS 650, a CX 500 Turbo, and a VFR 800.

I can dust the V-Star, 883 Sporty and the XS 650, keep pace with the CX, and stay pretty tight to the 1200 up to about 85 kph.  The VFR kills me easily. I was pleasantly surprised with these results. All rider and skill dependent, of course, but it was fun all the same.

I did the "Bobber" thing, though, so I lost a bunch of weight which could only help.
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Re: Engine Rebuild Tips and Opinions
Reply #16 - 03/23/15 at 04:55:10
 
It would be nice to know what kind of service life to expect from the Stage 2 and Stage 3 cams that have the higher lift.  Oldfeller may have the most mileage of anyone on the Stage 2 cam.....I might contact him and see how many miles he has on it.
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Re: Engine Rebuild Tips and Opinions
Reply #17 - 03/23/15 at 07:37:53
 
Iceman4193 wrote on 03/21/15 at 12:51:45:
I'd be looking for a low pitched mid volume pipe. Not so loud that it annoys the rider but I do love the noise of a single lol.



I sent you a PM in response to your inquiry.

Cone Engineering ( http://www.coneeng.com/pdf/motorcycle/MC%20finsihed%20Mufflers%20PDF.pdf] ) has some nice stainless mufflers for reasonable prices, in assorted sizes & shapes with a few different baffle setups to choose from, depending on your needs.
Take a look.

As for the camshafts, the difference in lift between stock and Stage 1-3 is not a lot when compared to something like a '90-'95 DR performance cam.
Other than the cylinder head configuration, both engines are quite similar.
The camshaft core itself is the very same for both engines, they just have different lobe profiles.

Stock         lift  .254/.244      duration   224                                                                  
Stage 1            .264/.264                     239                            
Stage 2            .274/.274                     248
Stage 3            .273/.273                     238

DR 650            .389/.390                      270
                      .417/.405                     254

Ours are very mild compared to the DR performance cams, which are designed for spirited/race riding.  The valve gear is the same and the valve are also the same if I remember their measurements correctly.  The big difference is the designed shape of the exhaust ports.  The intake side looks basically like ours.
The cam chain is the same type but slightly longer because they used a slightly larger cam gear with more teeth.

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Re: Engine Rebuild Tips and Opinions
Reply #18 - 04/27/15 at 18:28:32
 
Still looking for a truck so far, lots of scumbags here in FL that try to scam or sell you garbage. Luckily I am decent at spotting lemons lol.

But so far I am thinking about a 95mm or a 96mm bore. What are my options and pricing for these? I would probably prefer to get the piston with the cylinder so I know they fit correctly, and would probably want the carbide treatment as well.

Would want to do the 34 Slide Carb, I don't think I need the 36 I don't think. Options and pricing for these?

Definitely a header and a higher flow exhaust. Probably a 1.5" header and I want the sound of a straight, but I don't want the power loss. Any options for that?

I already have the K&N drop in, but idk if I want to do the Airbox delete and go with a cone just for the cleaner look. Any draw backs to the cone filter like water getting in or anything?

Has anyone played around with longer swing arms and smaller rear pulleys? I would want to be able to cruise at higher speeds at lower RPM so my idea was to do a Harley belt with a smaller rear belt pulley and extended swing arm to space things out a bit.

Definitely am going to need forward controls, but I wanted to make them custom. Anyway to get some measurements on a pair of 6" extensions? I am 6'2 so I think that should give me enough room.

Any opinions on fork replacements to a better set?

Has anyone done a disk break conversion on the rear brake before?

I know I'm getting really into it but I'm just brain storming right now. Still can't do anything until I find a truck.  Sad
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Re: Engine Rebuild Tips and Opinions
Reply #19 - 04/28/15 at 03:46:06
 
Cylinder/Piston - Your options on the Wiseco are buy a complete one from Lancer....or get it done yourself.  Lancer uses Boretech to do the boring and Silicone Carbide treatment.....and the owner is a full time cylinder boring guy, a biker, and a nice guy.  If you have him do the work you know it will be done right the first time.  So many shops just don't do enough boring to be really good at it....I don't know of any others that do the Silicone Carbide Treatment.  You can buy a piston off eBay and have it shipped to Boretech, ship him the cylinder and have it bored and the Silicone Carbide Treatment applied....you will probably save a bit of money over what Lancer charges.  Lancer has to pay for shipping to and from Boretech to where he lives and then on to you....so his cost in preparing the kits will be a bit higher than what you could do if you want to take the time.  (If the shop gets the boring wrong and it is too tight....the piston can seize in the cylinder.  Too loose and it can rattle and burn oil).

Carb - I have a 95mm Wiseco on my bike and a 34mm Mikuni.  It is all the carb you need on the bike, and the smaller size makes the idle and cruise operation better than the larger carb would.  Once again you can buy the carb from Lancer and he has worked out all the jetting and parts needed for the installation.....or you can shop around and piece it together yourself.  The 34mm carb jets can vary greatly as some are jetted for 2 stroke bikes when you get them.  You will need a special throttle cable for the installation, along with a different rubber adapter/clamp at the cylinder head.

Header - The stock header works OK....but a larger one would be a bit better for performance.  Currently no one makes a 1.5" header - so you will have to have that made on your own.

Muffler - A straight pipe is not ideal for good performance.  You need some form of baffle inside to cancel the pulses in the exhaust flow.  It does not make much sense to improve the performance of the engine with a new piston and carb, and then lose those gains with an open exhaust system.  The DYNA may be a bit too restrictive for a modified engine - the EMGO muffler would work - but it really needs some changes in the baffle to reduce the noise.  I plan on doing a Tech Article on that this summer.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjKUKhHQLHg

AIR BOX - The stock air box works just fine on a modified engine.  The cylinder head is the biggest restriction in the performance of this engine, and the air box can keep up with the flow the engine needs.  The cone filters are not all that great in flow - they are just easy and folks that like the "simple" look prefer them.  The stock air box is waterproof and works just fine with a modified engine - I suppose if you tuck the cone filter back behind the battery box and between the side panels it will be more resistant to water getting in - but if you just hang it on the back of the carb any water that reaches the filter can go into the carb and/or engine.  Removing the stock air box is a lot of work.

Gearing - The Kawasaki pulley conversion is the easiest way to keep the belt and change the final drive gearing.  You can change the front pulley without any problems with the belt fitting - or you can do both pulleys.....you can't do the rear one alone without making the swing arm longer.  Harley pulleys and belts don't work....they are narrower and the teeth are round instead of square.
http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1384949185

Forward Controls - I don't know anything about them....there are a few vendors in the Marketplace Section.

Fork Replacements - A few have done it, not sure what you mean by a "better set".  It is not an easy conversion as often the front wheel, brakes, fenders all have to be changed if you try using the stock fork yokes....and likely the fork tubes (38mm) won't work with the way the top yoke is attached to the fork tubes using the fork caps.  If you change to the fork yokes you have to adapt the forks to the steering stem and bearings.....and often the trail changes and can make the bike steer sluggish if you increase the trail.

Rear Disk Conversion - Some have talked about it, a few have done it.  It does require a lot of work including a change in the rear hub.  Not really worth the time and effort, as the stock brake works just fine and never wears out.

Cylinder Head and Cam - You did not mention either of these, and if you are doing work to improve your performance there are some noticeable gains here.  The ring at the end of the exhaust port can be trimmed down a bit, and a fit of smoothing of the ports can be done o the cylinder head.  The cam needs to be changed to a performance cam - for cruising around the Stage 1 or Stage 3 cam are fine and do a good job...the Stage 2 cam is the most performance oriented grind.

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Re: Engine Rebuild Tips and Opinions
Reply #20 - 04/28/15 at 11:56:41
 
Dave wrote on 04/28/15 at 03:46:06:
Cylinder/Piston - Your options on the Wiseco are buy a complete one from Lancer....or get it done yourself.  Lancer uses Boretech to do the boring and Silicone Carbide treatment.....and the owner is a full time cylinder boring guy, a biker, and a nice guy.  If you have him do the work you know it will be done right the first time.  So many shops just don't do enough boring to be really good at it....I don't know of any others that do the Silicone Carbide Treatment.  You can buy a piston off eBay and have it shipped to Boretech, ship him the cylinder and have it bored and the Silicone Carbide Treatment applied....you will probably save a bit of money over what Lancer charges.  Lancer has to pay for shipping to and from Boretech to where he lives and then on to you....so his cost in preparing the kits will be a bit higher than what you could do if you want to take the time.  (If the shop gets the boring wrong and it is too tight....the piston can seize in the cylinder.  Too loose and it can rattle and burn oil).

Carb - I have a 95mm Wiseco on my bike and a 34mm Mikuni.  It is all the carb you need on the bike, and the smaller size makes the idle and cruise operation better than the larger carb would.  Once again you can buy the carb from Lancer and he has worked out all the jetting and parts needed for the installation.....or you can shop around and piece it together yourself.  The 34mm carb jets can vary greatly as some are jetted for 2 stroke bikes when you get them.  You will need a special throttle cable for the installation, along with a different rubber adapter/clamp at the cylinder head.

Header - The stock header works OK....but a larger one would be a bit better for performance.  Currently no one makes a 1.5" header - so you will have to have that made on your own.

Muffler - A straight pipe is not ideal for good performance.  You need some form of baffle inside to cancel the pulses in the exhaust flow.  It does not make much sense to improve the performance of the engine with a new piston and carb, and then lose those gains with an open exhaust system.  The DYNA may be a bit too restrictive for a modified engine - the EMGO muffler would work - but it really needs some changes in the baffle to reduce the noise.  I plan on doing a Tech Article on that this summer.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjKUKhHQLHg

AIR BOX - The stock air box works just fine on a modified engine.  The cylinder head is the biggest restriction in the performance of this engine, and the air box can keep up with the flow the engine needs.  The cone filters are not all that great in flow - they are just easy and folks that like the "simple" look prefer them.  The stock air box is waterproof and works just fine with a modified engine - I suppose if you tuck the cone filter back behind the battery box and between the side panels it will be more resistant to water getting in - but if you just hang it on the back of the carb any water that reaches the filter can go into the carb and/or engine.  Removing the stock air box is a lot of work.

Gearing - The Kawasaki pulley conversion is the easiest way to keep the belt and change the final drive gearing.  You can change the front pulley without any problems with the belt fitting - or you can do both pulleys.....you can't do the rear one alone without making the swing arm longer.  Harley pulleys and belts don't work....they are narrower and the teeth are round instead of square.
http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1384949185

Forward Controls - I don't know anything about them....there are a few vendors in the Marketplace Section.

Fork Replacements - A few have done it, not sure what you mean by a "better set".  It is not an easy conversion as often the front wheel, brakes, fenders all have to be changed if you try using the stock fork yokes....and likely the fork tubes (38mm) won't work with the way the top yoke is attached to the fork tubes using the fork caps.  If you change to the fork yokes you have to adapt the forks to the steering stem and bearings.....and often the trail changes and can make the bike steer sluggish if you increase the trail.

Rear Disk Conversion - Some have talked about it, a few have done it.  It does require a lot of work including a change in the rear hub.  Not really worth the time and effort, as the stock brake works just fine and never wears out.

Cylinder Head and Cam - You did not mention either of these, and if you are doing work to improve your performance there are some noticeable gains here.  The ring at the end of the exhaust port can be trimmed down a bit, and a fit of smoothing of the ports can be done o the cylinder head.  The cam needs to be changed to a performance cam - for cruising around the Stage 1 or Stage 3 cam are fine and do a good job...the Stage 2 cam is the most performance oriented grind.



You are the man Dave. Bringing the knowledge  Cool I'm definitely  gonna start pricing it out and look into the stuff you mentioned. I'm thinking a stage 3 cam and definitely gonna port the exhaust a bit.
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Re: Engine Rebuild Tips and Opinions
Reply #21 - 04/28/15 at 13:50:38
 
Why Stage Three?
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Re: Engine Rebuild Tips and Opinions
Reply #22 - 04/28/15 at 14:11:11
 
A really interesting thread  Cool This sums up much of what can be researched in a number of other threads, as per performance upgrades, but in a very concise, and to the point, way. Many thanks  Wink
As a long term plan (ie. next winter) I'd like to do something similar myself. (Stage 3 cam, 95 wiseco, head porting, custom header, etc)
So I'm interested in how you get along with it and look forward to your results.
If I may add something, don't be afraid to upgrade the brakes to match the performance increase. (Also take into account that you may need to uprate the clutch).
I'm sure someone here posted about a front-end swap with an Intruder VS750, mainly for the 21" front wheel but also benefiting from a fork and brake upgrade in one go. Not sure if this is relevant to you or not. RycaShaun does a brake upgrade that I'm interested in, and for me, personally, that's something which I'd prioritize before engine upgrades.
Anyway, I'm not too sober atm, and I've waffled on too much.
Good luck with this project and what a great thread  Cool

PS. I believe Lancer is just doing the Stage 3 at the moment, JoG
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Re: Engine Rebuild Tips and Opinions
Reply #23 - 04/28/15 at 15:58:35
 
Dave said
for cruising around the Stage 1 or Stage 3 cam are fine and do a good job...the Stage 2 cam is the most performance oriented grind.

I had the Stage One, I know that one,,
I don't know hoot about the others.
I,on more than one occasion, had to pull my foot back, because of the pinch between peg and motor, and I wear Red wings..
I rode the Snot outta that bike..
Based on Dave and his post, I would want to hear the differences between the options,,
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Re: Engine Rebuild Tips and Opinions
Reply #24 - 04/28/15 at 18:28:08
 
I don't know anything about the Stage 2 and Stage 3.....I have only used a Stage 1 and I like it.  It is smooth, makes a noticeable power improvement, and it still cruises fine and gets pretty good fuel mileage.  The majority of my time I am just cruising around on the back roads and most likely only using about 10 HP!

Somebody else will have to let us know what to expect with the other cams.  The Stage 3 has the same duration as the Stage 1 but has more lift.  The Stage 2 has the high lift and more duration.....but is still a mild cam in comparison to the cams that are used in the DR650.
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Re: Engine Rebuild Tips and Opinions
Reply #25 - 04/28/15 at 21:11:07
 
What I got from reading about the various stages of cams was that the stage one was the 'mild' cam, maybe comparing to an RV cam in an automotive engine
the stage two was the 'hot' cam, sort of the savage equivelent of a 3/4 race cam in a car, but of course not that nasty, I'm just using car cam grinds for comparo
and the stage 3 was in between, call it the 'street / strip' grind, combining the higher lift of the stage 2 with the milder duration of the stage 1, and was therefore the 'best of both' grind
this is all by reading, I haven't sampled any of them myself
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Re: Engine Rebuild Tips and Opinions
Reply #26 - 04/29/15 at 03:02:41
 
Here is what Lancer says on his thread for the camshaft:

A camshaft defines the character of an engine.  
The stock cam is mild mannered and easy going.
A Performance Camshaft does a quick change in the phone booth...different attitude altogether.



CAMSHAFT                           VALVE LIFT IN/EX                          DURATION @ .050

Stock camshaft                       .254/.244                                          224
Webcam std.                          .256/.256                                          226
Stage 1                                      .264/.264                                                 239
Stage 2                                      .274/.274                                                 248
Stage 3                                      .273/.273                                                 238

Effects of duration:
220-235  =>  Low End Torque
235-250  =>  Midrange Torque
260 +       =>  Top End Power

Both Stage 1 and Stage 2 camshafts are in the midrange for duration; the Stage 2 is just a bit higher in the category and makes its peak torque & power at 500-1000 rpm higher.  The Stage 1 is the better choice for an otherwise stock engine or mild to moderately modified.
The Stage 2 is designed for a moderate to more highly modified engine.  Stage 3 was added as a blended profile of 1 & 2, for those who want something in between.
The Stage 3 is a blend of 1 & 2.  It has the same basic duration of the Stage 1 and the lift of the Stage 2.


So even though the Stage 2 camshaft is the "hottest" - it is still a grind that provides midrange torque.  None of these cams are wild HP cams.
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Re: Engine Rebuild Tips and Opinions
Reply #27 - 04/29/15 at 09:27:02
 
As a comparison....the cams available from Webcam for the DR650.


Stage 1 - Improved performance throughout RPM range. Requires Performance Valve Spring Kit.

VALVE LIFT .390/.380
     
DURATION 270°/270°
     
DURATION @ 0.050"  248°/248°
     

STAGE 2 - Designed to increase mid and upper end performance. Requires Exhaust System, High Compression Piston, and Performance Valve Spring Kit.

VALVE LIFT .417/.405
     
DURATION 275°/275°
     
DURATION @ 0.050"  254°/254°

You can see that the wildest cam for the LS650 matches the .050 duration of the mild cam for the DR650.  And the valve lift on the LS650 is much less than the lift of the LS650 cam.

So all things being equal....even the LS650 Stage 2 cam is designed to be an improvement at all rpm - not just at the redline.
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Re: Engine Rebuild Tips and Opinions
Reply #28 - 04/29/15 at 09:57:57
 
OK, I used bad analogies (I sort of hinted they were in my post)
the point was that stage 1 was the mildest grind (aside from the stocker) that I knew of (the webcam I didn't know about) and the stage 2 the wildest, with the # 3 splitting the difference
I think Oldfeller has a stage 2, along with other mods (which he denies in true old school hot rodder style) and someone, I think it was MMR, described it as a nasty, gas swilling beast (compared to MMrs own bike)
I do realize it's all relative, though, the 'hottest' cam you can get for a savage is still pretty tame relatively speaking
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Re: Engine Rebuild Tips and Opinions
Reply #29 - 04/29/15 at 11:37:20
 
I am planning on adding some accessories and weight so I want enough power to get up to and cruise highway speeds without stressing the motor to much. I live 200 miles from Daytona, I would like to ride the 95 to bike week and stuff like that and do it without hitting 4k rpm lol
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