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Message started by Iceman4193 on 03/19/15 at 21:01:58

Title: Engine Rebuild Tips and Opinions
Post by Iceman4193 on 03/19/15 at 21:01:58

Alright, so I have bad compression on my 2001 LS650P and I am not getting the performance I am looking for. So I am going to be tearing down the engine soon to do some modifications and replacing the seals and all. I figured while I am doing this, rather than replacing or reusing stock parts, why not make my bike one of a kind and really have some fun with it. Since I have not done this before, I figured I should hit the watering hole and ask around to get some opinions and get an idea of options that are available for consideration.

I currently have a 2001 LS650P with 22K miles on it. Modifications so far are:
K&N Drop in air filter
Dyna Exhaust
Versy Cam Chain Adjuster
152.5M 52.5P 2/3 Spacer Mod
Raptor Petcock
and various cosmetic things.

What I am looking for so far:
A Large Bore Cylinder and Piston (97mm or so)
Performance Carb for proper air flow to the bigger bore
Performance Cam
Ported Exhaust
Raask Header?
New cylinder head?
Bigger Valves?

Since I am going to have it all apart, what are some of your ideas for improvements, where do you like to get your parts, and what have you done to your own that has worked or has not worked so I know what to avoid.

I am open to any ideas and for me this is going to be a learning experience as well as a bit of fun.

Thanks guys! 8-)

Title: Re: Engine Rebuild Tips and Opinions
Post by Flint on 03/19/15 at 23:02:05

The fellows on this site know more about the S40 than Suzuki does. Be patient.

Title: Re: Engine Rebuild Tips and Opinions
Post by jcstokes on 03/19/15 at 23:13:32

The 97mm piston may be hard to find, 95 mm appears easier. You will need to contact Lancer on this forum, who manufactures various cam profiles. Some people use a variety of carburettors , you should check the tech section about this, and the marketplace for Lancer's gear. Porting the exhaust area may help. Don't know about larger valves. The techies will.

Title: Re: Engine Rebuild Tips and Opinions
Post by Dave on 03/20/15 at 03:33:05

The first thing you need to consider....is that this is a big single, and it is a very primitive one that was not designed to make HP. You can make this engine run better - you will never make it fast. Anyone that makes big HP and speeds claims has most likely never ridden a really fast bike. I am going to use the term "power" in this discussion as the big single really makes torque...not so much HP. HP is torque multiplied by rpm (work) - but in this engine you will not be able to increase the rpm so you will never be able to make big HP numbers. With engine improvements and an aggressive launch you may be the first one across the intersection.....you will never be the first one to the end of the block!

There is nothing available for larger valves and a different cylinder head.

Cylinder head mods would be the removal of some of the donut in the exhaust port, and a smoothing out of the ports. You can't do too much to the nasty bump in the exhaust port, as that is below the valve springs and will make the area weak if you take away too much material. Most likely the cylinder head is the limiting factor to what you can do with this bike (and the long stroke).

The stock 94 mm (652cc) piston is low compression, the piston upgrades are generally around 10.5:1 compression - but we don't know for sure as the piston was really made for the DR650 and just happens to work in the Savage if you bore the cylinder. The Wiseco is available in 95mm (666cc) and 96mm (680cc), and the 97mm (694cc) used to be available in the Wiseco - but now the Woessner piston is the only one available. Although the Wiseco is more known - Woessner have a very good reputation and product. The size of the piston to choose is a personal choice and open to debate. A big part of the performance improvement comes from the increased compression - but you will have to start using Premium fuel. When I built my engine I chose the 95mm, as most of the time I am cruising around at partial throttle and I really don't need the extra cc's sucking air and using fuel...if I ride really carefully I can get 62 mpg. The 95mm is the smallest you can go, and with each bigger piston you are only gaining 2% in engine size.....so the difference in piston size is not really all that significant. All 3 piston sizes will give you a significant bump in "torque" over the stock low compression piston.

There are 3 cam grinds available for this engine. The Stage 1 cam is the mildest, the Stage 2 cam is the wildest, and the Stage 3 cam is a cross between the other and has the mild duration of the Stage 1 cam with the increased lift of the Stage 2 cam. None of the grinds are aggressive race cams - you can look at Lancer's page for a better description of where the cam makes power. Once again I chose the Stage 1 cam as I do a lot of cruising and making big POWER numbers are not as important to me as the ability to cruise around on my bike all day. The increased lift of the Stage 2 and Stage 3 cams may promote a little more wear on the cam lobes, rockers and valve guides - but Oldfeller has been running a Stage 2 cam in his bike for years and hasn't worn anything out yet. Make sure you use an oil with 1,200 to 1,400 ppm of ZDDP to protect the cam and rockers from wear.

The stock header is about 1-1/4" diameter and is a bit restrictive - but does work OK as long as you have a non-restrictive muffler. You should not install a header that is more than 1-1/2" diameter for best performance. The DYNA muffler works great on a stock engine - but may be a bit too restrictive once you want to make more power. You need to avoid any muffler that does not have some form of baffle (drag pipe), as those can cause jetting problems and flat spots in the power curve.

The stock carb can run OK with engine mods, as can the stock air cleaner box. A switch to a Mikuni round slide VM carb is proven system, and the 34mm is most likely the best choice as the idle and low speed manners are better than the larger 36mm carb. The carb is just a bit more responsive as it does not have the vacuum operated slide and reacts almost instantly to what your throttle hand does. However you need to learn proper throttle control.....you can't just "whack" the throttle open when you accelerate and have to "roll" the throttle on. Instantly opening the throttle slide can cause the vacuum in the carb to drop so much that the fuel will stop being pulled into the engine. The VM carb also doesn't have the TEV valve, and if you let the slide drop completely back closed between shifts or while you are compression braking you will get lots of backfires out the muffler. You need to keep the throttle open just a tiny bit between shifts and while you are slowing down to keep the engine from making a lot of noise. You can make the bike really noisy or really quiet....it all depends on what you do with your right wrist. (You just open the throttle enough to add some fuel flow and make the noise go away).

The stock air box and the drop in K&N works just fine.....the cone filters don't make the bike run any better.

The stock clutch can handle these improvements - as long as the clutch has never been exposed to any oil with friction modifiers, and you don't apply full throttle while the engine oil is still cold and thick. Installing stronger springs can cause the little metal piece inside the clutch housing that pushes on the clutch rod to break...it is made from some form of powdered metal and is not all that strong.

Having to run Premium fuel can be a curse not only because of the extra cost - but the rumors are that the Premium fuel sits in the tanks at the gas stations longer and can be old when you buy it. I did a long term fuel test to see how fuel holds up, and the Premium was the first fuel to deteriorate and go through the phase separation where the ethanol settles out of the gasoline. Also when you pull up to a pump that dispenses all 3 grades (mixer pump), the chances are that although you hit the switch for Premium - the hose will most likely be filled with Regular from the car that was in front of you....and you will be getting 1/2 gallon of Regular with your 1-1/2 gallon of Premium.

So...yes you can improve the engine pretty easily...as long as you are handy with a checkbook. The engine will be much more responsive, able to pull higher gearing, and a bit faster.....but it will not be fast! Mine is as fast as an 883 Sportster up to 80mph....beyond that is starts to run out of power - but I can get up over 100 given enough room.

Title: Re: Engine Rebuild Tips and Opinions
Post by Gary_in_NJ on 03/20/15 at 06:09:34

Great post Dave. Probably the best description of available engine mods I've seen for this engine. Sticky?

Iceman, regarding the low compression, I'd want to know WHY there is low compression before I invest a lot of time and money into the engine. For example, is the head cracked?

The basic compression test is almost useless as a diagnostic tool. I would suggest a differential compression test (aka leak-down test) to determine the loss compression. The differential compression test attempts to hold a known value of pressure in the cylinder. If there is a problem you can determine where the compression loss is happening by where the air is leaking. As a general rule...

Air out the breather = rings (slow leak)
Air out the breather = hole in piston (fast leak)
Air out the exhaust = exhaust valve, seat or guides
Air out the carb = intake valve, seat or guides
Air from between the head & cylinder = head gasket
Air out of the cylinder or head means a crack in that component.

As you can see, this type of compression test is a real tool.

Title: Re: Engine Rebuild Tips and Opinions
Post by Dave on 03/20/15 at 06:23:11

I certainly want to wait and have Lancer comment....he is the pioneer in the Savage engine hop ups, and has most likely built the most aggressive Savage engine on the forum (REX).

One more thing I wanted to say....is that you need to have a really competent machinist do the cylinder bore. The clearances and roundness and surface finish are really important. A lot of shops don't bore cylinders regularly...and may not be all that good at it.

If the cylinder is bored with too much clearance you are basically starting out the a brand new worn out piston/cylinder. The piston will rattle, you could burn oil and have low compression and a lot of piston blow by.

If the cylinder is bored too tight the piston and rings can seize in the bore when the engine is running. This will ruin your day.....along with all the new piston/cylinder parts.

If the cylinder does not have a good cross hatch pattern, the rings may never seat properly and you can have lot of oil usage and blow by out the breather tube.

The silicone carbide treatment it a good product for long service life from the new piston and cylinder bore.

Title: Re: Engine Rebuild Tips and Opinions
Post by Suzukisavvy on 03/20/15 at 07:17:24

Well the first thought that comes to my mind, do you have the tools to machine the engine to fir all of the performance parts? Sounds like a lot of hard work for a simple single cylinder engine. The stock parts are close to all the more power you can get out of an engine like that. Honestly of you want to get power, find a twin engine and put it on the frame if you love the bike that much! Sorry, but just my oppinion but good luck to you! Post pictures too so i can see!! 8-)

Title: Re: Engine Rebuild Tips and Opinions
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 03/20/15 at 08:30:53

I chose the Savage,, low , light, enough power to get me outta trouble in traffic, not designed to carve corners like a race bike, but it Will run thru a curve grinding a peg. There's no point in having more power than the rider can Safely use. I did rejet, mod the exhaust, up to a Stage One cam, Then we were matched. If I had Lancers (I'm bad with names, might have who has done the most power mods wrong ) bike I couldn't run it thru the Dragon as fast as he can, I'd bet. The question is, how good of a rider are you?
How fast can you run thru a corner on a cruiser? You might find yourself very pleased with an economy rebuild, and get to riding sooner with more gas and tire money in the budget. I hope that before you decide on how it's going back together you consider Not going Full On .
I wanna say Serowbot has his cylinder treated, nitride? Sounds like a possibly intelligent thing to do...
Accurate machining is a big deal here..
Ditching weight equals immediate results.
Jacking the rear end up increases ground clearance and helps handling.
Being 60 and remembering NOT being 60,,,,
Do the compression check outlined above.
If it can be coaxed to run, if the rings have stuck, maybe, dumping diesel and Seafoam or any number of solvents in would help...

I sure hope you didn't pull the plug and let the crud that accumulates in the cavity it sits in fall in.. cuz That would mess with the compression..

Title: Re: Engine Rebuild Tips and Opinions
Post by Iceman4193 on 03/20/15 at 18:29:15

Awesome feedback so far guys, it is much appreciated. Dave I like your write up, informative as always.

I know that if I am trying to go as fast as possible that this bike is limited, but like I said initially, I'm really doing this as a learning experience as well. I have done work on engines here and there since I was like 14 but a few months ago I actually got a job as a mechanic apprentice and detailer working on a fleet of ambulances here in Florida. I am learning a lot from the mechanic I work with who has been riding for like 40 years but as far as this bike goes, if I am gonna have an opportunity to learn about performance mods and engine work, this is the time.

Overall, I want to do this bike up in a cruiser style. I appreciate the bobber and cafe racer builds, but they have never really been for me. I am looking for a nice comfy ride with some serious thump to it. If I can get this single cylinder to beat out some stock harley's while I'm at it then I am in no shortage of finding them here in south FL ;D

However I still want engine reliability and I would prefer not to drop down to 30 MPG with a 300 pound bike, Unless I am doing 0-60 in 3 seconds or something 8-)

I would consider myself a very good rider with very positive control of the bike, quick reaction time, and good situational awareness (I am also a pilot) so I think I would be able to handle the bump in torque and HP I am hoping to get.

Dave, Do you have a link to the REX build you mentioned so I can read about it?

Title: Re: Engine Rebuild Tips and Opinions
Post by Iceman4193 on 03/20/15 at 18:58:02

In fact, This guy has a build I can only drool over. I would love to have something very similar

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U5Yd2BrlDDI

Title: Re: Engine Rebuild Tips and Opinions
Post by Dave on 03/21/15 at 05:25:25

That is a really nice looking Savage you posted from YouTube. Nicely done.

You can find REX in post 85 of this thread. I have never ridden it, MMRanch rode it a few years ago and commented the front end liked to come up when you got on the throttle!
http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1338581006/85#85

My engine is at the bottom end of the performance mods, smallest Wiseco, smallest cam grind, some port work, stock header, 34mm Mikuni, and it runs great and does has a significant boost in power. I have a traffic sign on a nearby road that serves as my "speed indicator" My Pontiac Vibe can accelerate to 55 mph by the time I reach the sign, my 250 Ninja is at 60, my Savage Cafe' has reached 65, and my Honda ST1100 has reached 85. Most stock Harley's are in a pretty mild state of tune and with a modified engine you will be able to keep up with them pretty well...any sport bike over 300cc is going to beat you easily.

Yep....it is a fun project. The most tedious part is getting the jetting right, and even on a stock engine this can make a huge difference in the power, smoothness and mpg the bike gets. The stock jetting makes for decent emission compliance - but not always smooth running.

Title: Re: Engine Rebuild Tips and Opinions
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 03/21/15 at 08:10:51

Tell us what You want , and someone will tell you what you hafta do to get it.
Read my posts, if I didn't have six second 0-60 times, it was real close..
And I never took the head off.

Title: Re: Engine Rebuild Tips and Opinions
Post by Iceman4193 on 03/21/15 at 09:29:08

So possibly I would be thinking about a 96 or 97mm bore, a stage 3 cam, I have to t hink about the carb but probably the 34 if it would provide enough to the jug and a port and 1 1/2" header.

Do you think the dyna would be enough flow for that because I know the jugs on a dyna are like 700cc each or so.

As far as the body goes, I would like to do some mods to get it looking like the streamline shape of the boulevard. I think that bike looks amazing.

Title: Re: Engine Rebuild Tips and Opinions
Post by Dave on 03/21/15 at 09:58:45

3832343C303F65606862510 wrote:

Do you think the dyna would be enough flow for that because I know the jugs on a dyna are like 700cc each or so.

No, the DYNA is fine for the stock engine, and the DYNA the muffler came from as they are not making much power. The DYNA muffler does not have a lot of holes in the baffle and would restrict flow for a hopped up engine.

The EMGO muffler can work, and I can show you what to do to make it a lot less noisy. The Supertrapp can work - but it is pretty loud as well and is expensive. Some of the sport bike mufflers are very tempting to try and a little bit of welding could adapt them easily.

Title: Re: Engine Rebuild Tips and Opinions
Post by Iceman4193 on 03/21/15 at 12:51:45

I'd be looking for a low pitched mid volume pipe. Not so loud that it annoys the rider but I do love the noise of a single lol.

Title: Re: Engine Rebuild Tips and Opinions
Post by Smokestack on 03/21/15 at 15:20:53

When I got my Savage, it needed a set of piston rings pretty bad. As I was going to pull it apart anyway, I decided to hop it up a bit for fun. I'm running the 96mm piston, stage 3 cam, 36 mm carb with dial-a-jet, and a Raask (a gift from my awesome wife for my birthday).

As was said, it'll never be fast, but it is surprising. For reference, the guys I ride with most have a 650 V-Star, an 883 Sportster, a 1200 sportster, an XS 650, a CX 500 Turbo, and a VFR 800.

I can dust the V-Star, 883 Sporty and the XS 650, keep pace with the CX, and stay pretty tight to the 1200 up to about 85 kph. The VFR kills me easily. I was pleasantly surprised with these results. All rider and skill dependent, of course, but it was fun all the same.

I did the "Bobber" thing, though, so I lost a bunch of weight which could only help.

Title: Re: Engine Rebuild Tips and Opinions
Post by Dave on 03/23/15 at 04:55:10

It would be nice to know what kind of service life to expect from the Stage 2 and Stage 3 cams that have the higher lift. Oldfeller may have the most mileage of anyone on the Stage 2 cam.....I might contact him and see how many miles he has on it.

Title: Re: Engine Rebuild Tips and Opinions
Post by LANCER on 03/23/15 at 07:37:53

3832343C303F65606862510 wrote:

I'd be looking for a low pitched mid volume pipe. Not so loud that it annoys the rider but I do love the noise of a single lol.

I sent you a PM in response to your inquiry.

Cone Engineering ( [url]http://www.coneeng.com/pdf/motorcycle/MC%20finsihed%20Mufflers%20PDF.pdf[/url] ) has some nice stainless mufflers for reasonable prices, in assorted sizes & shapes with a few different baffle setups to choose from, depending on your needs.
Take a look.

As for the camshafts, the difference in lift between stock and Stage 1-3 is not a lot when compared to something like a '90-'95 DR performance cam.
Other than the cylinder head configuration, both engines are quite similar.
The camshaft core itself is the very same for both engines, they just have different lobe profiles.

Stock lift .254/.244 duration 224
Stage 1 .264/.264 239
Stage 2 .274/.274 248
Stage 3 .273/.273 238

DR 650 .389/.390 270
.417/.405 254

Ours are very mild compared to the DR performance cams, which are designed for spirited/race riding. The valve gear is the same and the valve are also the same if I remember their measurements correctly. The big difference is the designed shape of the exhaust ports. The intake side looks basically like ours.
The cam chain is the same type but slightly longer because they used a slightly larger cam gear with more teeth.

Title: Re: Engine Rebuild Tips and Opinions
Post by Iceman4193 on 04/27/15 at 18:28:32

Still looking for a truck so far, lots of scumbags here in FL that try to scam or sell you garbage. Luckily I am decent at spotting lemons lol.

But so far I am thinking about a 95mm or a 96mm bore. What are my options and pricing for these? I would probably prefer to get the piston with the cylinder so I know they fit correctly, and would probably want the carbide treatment as well.

Would want to do the 34 Slide Carb, I don't think I need the 36 I don't think. Options and pricing for these?

Definitely a header and a higher flow exhaust. Probably a 1.5" header and I want the sound of a straight, but I don't want the power loss. Any options for that?

I already have the K&N drop in, but idk if I want to do the Airbox delete and go with a cone just for the cleaner look. Any draw backs to the cone filter like water getting in or anything?

Has anyone played around with longer swing arms and smaller rear pulleys? I would want to be able to cruise at higher speeds at lower RPM so my idea was to do a Harley belt with a smaller rear belt pulley and extended swing arm to space things out a bit.

Definitely am going to need forward controls, but I wanted to make them custom. Anyway to get some measurements on a pair of 6" extensions? I am 6'2 so I think that should give me enough room.

Any opinions on fork replacements to a better set?

Has anyone done a disk break conversion on the rear brake before?

I know I'm getting really into it but I'm just brain storming right now. Still can't do anything until I find a truck. :(

Title: Re: Engine Rebuild Tips and Opinions
Post by Dave on 04/28/15 at 03:46:06

Cylinder/Piston - Your options on the Wiseco are buy a complete one from Lancer....or get it done yourself. Lancer uses Boretech to do the boring and Silicone Carbide treatment.....and the owner is a full time cylinder boring guy, a biker, and a nice guy. If you have him do the work you know it will be done right the first time. So many shops just don't do enough boring to be really good at it....I don't know of any others that do the Silicone Carbide Treatment. You can buy a piston off eBay and have it shipped to Boretech, ship him the cylinder and have it bored and the Silicone Carbide Treatment applied....you will probably save a bit of money over what Lancer charges. Lancer has to pay for shipping to and from Boretech to where he lives and then on to you....so his cost in preparing the kits will be a bit higher than what you could do if you want to take the time. (If the shop gets the boring wrong and it is too tight....the piston can seize in the cylinder. Too loose and it can rattle and burn oil).

Carb - I have a 95mm Wiseco on my bike and a 34mm Mikuni. It is all the carb you need on the bike, and the smaller size makes the idle and cruise operation better than the larger carb would. Once again you can buy the carb from Lancer and he has worked out all the jetting and parts needed for the installation.....or you can shop around and piece it together yourself. The 34mm carb jets can vary greatly as some are jetted for 2 stroke bikes when you get them. You will need a special throttle cable for the installation, along with a different rubber adapter/clamp at the cylinder head.

Header - The stock header works OK....but a larger one would be a bit better for performance. Currently no one makes a 1.5" header - so you will have to have that made on your own.

Muffler - A straight pipe is not ideal for good performance. You need some form of baffle inside to cancel the pulses in the exhaust flow. It does not make much sense to improve the performance of the engine with a new piston and carb, and then lose those gains with an open exhaust system. The DYNA may be a bit too restrictive for a modified engine - the EMGO muffler would work - but it really needs some changes in the baffle to reduce the noise. I plan on doing a Tech Article on that this summer.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjKUKhHQLHg

AIR BOX - The stock air box works just fine on a modified engine. The cylinder head is the biggest restriction in the performance of this engine, and the air box can keep up with the flow the engine needs. The cone filters are not all that great in flow - they are just easy and folks that like the "simple" look prefer them. The stock air box is waterproof and works just fine with a modified engine - I suppose if you tuck the cone filter back behind the battery box and between the side panels it will be more resistant to water getting in - but if you just hang it on the back of the carb any water that reaches the filter can go into the carb and/or engine. Removing the stock air box is a lot of work.

Gearing - The Kawasaki pulley conversion is the easiest way to keep the belt and change the final drive gearing. You can change the front pulley without any problems with the belt fitting - or you can do both pulleys.....you can't do the rear one alone without making the swing arm longer. Harley pulleys and belts don't work....they are narrower and the teeth are round instead of square.
http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1384949185

Forward Controls - I don't know anything about them....there are a few vendors in the Marketplace Section.

Fork Replacements - A few have done it, not sure what you mean by a "better set". It is not an easy conversion as often the front wheel, brakes, fenders all have to be changed if you try using the stock fork yokes....and likely the fork tubes (38mm) won't work with the way the top yoke is attached to the fork tubes using the fork caps. If you change to the fork yokes you have to adapt the forks to the steering stem and bearings.....and often the trail changes and can make the bike steer sluggish if you increase the trail.

Rear Disk Conversion - Some have talked about it, a few have done it. It does require a lot of work including a change in the rear hub. Not really worth the time and effort, as the stock brake works just fine and never wears out.

Cylinder Head and Cam - You did not mention either of these, and if you are doing work to improve your performance there are some noticeable gains here. The ring at the end of the exhaust port can be trimmed down a bit, and a fit of smoothing of the ports can be done o the cylinder head. The cam needs to be changed to a performance cam - for cruising around the Stage 1 or Stage 3 cam are fine and do a good job...the Stage 2 cam is the most performance oriented grind.

Title: Re: Engine Rebuild Tips and Opinions
Post by Iceman4193 on 04/28/15 at 11:56:41

0A313C2B3A362D2B3038352A590 wrote:

You are the man Dave. Bringing the knowledge 8-) I'm definitely gonna start pricing it out and look into the stuff you mentioned. I'm thinking a stage 3 cam and definitely gonna port the exhaust a bit.

Title: Re: Engine Rebuild Tips and Opinions
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 04/28/15 at 13:50:38

Why Stage Three?

Title: Re: Engine Rebuild Tips and Opinions
Post by HovisPresley on 04/28/15 at 14:11:11

A really interesting thread 8-) This sums up much of what can be researched in a number of other threads, as per performance upgrades, but in a very concise, and to the point, way. Many thanks ;)
As a long term plan (ie. next winter) I'd like to do something similar myself. (Stage 3 cam, 95 wiseco, head porting, custom header, etc)
So I'm interested in how you get along with it and look forward to your results.
If I may add something, don't be afraid to upgrade the brakes to match the performance increase. (Also take into account that you may need to uprate the clutch).
I'm sure someone here posted about a front-end swap with an Intruder VS750, mainly for the 21" front wheel but also benefiting from a fork and brake upgrade in one go. Not sure if this is relevant to you or not. RycaShaun does a brake upgrade that I'm interested in, and for me, personally, that's something which I'd prioritize before engine upgrades.
Anyway, I'm not too sober atm, and I've waffled on too much.
Good luck with this project and what a great thread 8-)

PS. I believe Lancer is just doing the Stage 3 at the moment, JoG

Title: Re: Engine Rebuild Tips and Opinions
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 04/28/15 at 15:58:35

Dave said
for cruising around the Stage 1 or Stage 3 cam are fine and do a good job...the Stage 2 cam is the most performance oriented grind.

I had the Stage One, I know that one,,
I don't know hoot about the others.
I,on more than one occasion, had to pull my foot back, because of the pinch between peg and motor, and I wear Red wings..
I rode the Snot outta that bike..
Based on Dave and his post, I would want to hear the differences between the options,,

Title: Re: Engine Rebuild Tips and Opinions
Post by Dave on 04/28/15 at 18:28:08

I don't know anything about the Stage 2 and Stage 3.....I have only used a Stage 1 and I like it. It is smooth, makes a noticeable power improvement, and it still cruises fine and gets pretty good fuel mileage. The majority of my time I am just cruising around on the back roads and most likely only using about 10 HP!

Somebody else will have to let us know what to expect with the other cams. The Stage 3 has the same duration as the Stage 1 but has more lift. The Stage 2 has the high lift and more duration.....but is still a mild cam in comparison to the cams that are used in the DR650.

Title: Re: Engine Rebuild Tips and Opinions
Post by Art Webb on 04/28/15 at 21:11:07

What I got from reading about the various stages of cams was that the stage one was the 'mild' cam, maybe comparing to an RV cam in an automotive engine
the stage two was the 'hot' cam, sort of the savage equivelent of a 3/4 race cam in a car, but of course not that nasty, I'm just using car cam grinds for comparo
and the stage 3 was in between, call it the 'street / strip' grind, combining the higher lift of the stage 2 with the milder duration of the stage 1, and was therefore the 'best of both' grind
this is all by reading, I haven't sampled any of them myself

Title: Re: Engine Rebuild Tips and Opinions
Post by Dave on 04/29/15 at 03:02:41

Here is what Lancer says on his thread for the camshaft:

A camshaft defines the character of an engine.
The stock cam is mild mannered and easy going.
A Performance Camshaft does a quick change in the phone booth...different attitude altogether.

CAMSHAFT VALVE LIFT IN/EX DURATION @ .050

Stock camshaft .254/.244 224
Webcam std. .256/.256 226
Stage 1 .264/.264 239
Stage 2 .274/.274 248
Stage 3 .273/.273 238

Effects of duration:
220-235 => Low End Torque
235-250 => Midrange Torque
260 + => Top End Power

Both Stage 1 and Stage 2 camshafts are in the midrange for duration; the Stage 2 is just a bit higher in the category and makes its peak torque & power at 500-1000 rpm higher. The Stage 1 is the better choice for an otherwise stock engine or mild to moderately modified.
The Stage 2 is designed for a moderate to more highly modified engine. Stage 3 was added as a blended profile of 1 & 2, for those who want something in between.
The Stage 3 is a blend of 1 & 2. It has the same basic duration of the Stage 1 and the lift of the Stage 2.

So even though the Stage 2 camshaft is the "hottest" - it is still a grind that provides midrange torque. None of these cams are wild HP cams.

Title: Re: Engine Rebuild Tips and Opinions
Post by Dave on 04/29/15 at 09:27:02

As a comparison....the cams available from Webcam for the DR650.

Stage 1 - Improved performance throughout RPM range. Requires Performance Valve Spring Kit.

VALVE LIFT .390/.380

DURATION 270°/270°

DURATION @ 0.050" 248°/248°

STAGE 2 - Designed to increase mid and upper end performance. Requires Exhaust System, High Compression Piston, and Performance Valve Spring Kit.

VALVE LIFT .417/.405

DURATION 275°/275°

DURATION @ 0.050" 254°/254°

You can see that the wildest cam for the LS650 matches the .050 duration of the mild cam for the DR650. And the valve lift on the LS650 is much less than the lift of the LS650 cam.

So all things being equal....even the LS650 Stage 2 cam is designed to be an improvement at all rpm - not just at the redline.

Title: Re: Engine Rebuild Tips and Opinions
Post by Art Webb on 04/29/15 at 09:57:57

OK, I used bad analogies (I sort of hinted they were in my post)
the point was that stage 1 was the mildest grind (aside from the stocker) that I knew of (the webcam I didn't know about) and the stage 2 the wildest, with the # 3 splitting the difference
I think Oldfeller has a stage 2, along with other mods (which he denies in true old school hot rodder style) and someone, I think it was MMR, described it as a nasty, gas swilling beast (compared to MMrs own bike)
I do realize it's all relative, though, the 'hottest' cam you can get for a savage is still pretty tame relatively speaking

Title: Re: Engine Rebuild Tips and Opinions
Post by Iceman4193 on 04/29/15 at 11:37:20

I am planning on adding some accessories and weight so I want enough power to get up to and cruise highway speeds without stressing the motor to much. I live 200 miles from Daytona, I would like to ride the 95 to bike week and stuff like that and do it without hitting 4k rpm lol

Title: Re: Engine Rebuild Tips and Opinions
Post by Gary_in_NJ on 04/29/15 at 12:04:41

53595F575B540E0B03093A0 wrote:
I am planning on adding some accessories and weight so I want enough power to get up to and cruise highway speeds without stressing the motor to much. I live 200 miles from Daytona, I would like to ride the 95 to bike week and stuff like that and do it without hitting 4k rpm lol

Cruise RPM is determined by gearing, not horsepower. Of course, if you have additional horsepower you can run taller gearing. I'm quite sure you can hit 70-75 mph with taller gearing with stock engine components.

Title: Re: Engine Rebuild Tips and Opinions
Post by verslagen1 on 04/29/15 at 13:24:52

If I understand correctly, to get peak mpg, set up your gearing to operate at peak torque at the desired speed.
http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh128/russ_diamond_jim/dynorunS40dj.jpg

Title: Re: Engine Rebuild Tips and Opinions
Post by Art Webb on 04/29/15 at 22:12:27

Kawasaki front pulley, maybe stage 1 cam, Dyna Muff, rejet carb, should be fine, mine'll run 75 all day long stock, but she is spinning along pretty busily
the Kawa pulley will drop the RPM, the mods will give enough power to support that

Title: Re: Engine Rebuild Tips and Opinions
Post by Dave on 04/30/15 at 03:21:47

Looking at that DYNO sheet....no wonder I love this bike. The maximum torque value is almost constant between 3,000 and 5,000 rpm. This makes for a nice comfortable ride on the back roads without making lots of gear changes along the way.

The engine will never make a lot of HP as the rpm is limited by the long stroke. Engine improvements should be made to increase the torque values - which will allow the engine to pull harder and pull some taller gearing. My bike has a Wiseco 95mm, Stage 1 cam, Mikuni carb and the double Kawasaki pulley conversion and an 18" rear wheel. It is a Cafe' conversion and does not have a windshield or saddlebags, and it can pull 5th gear easily with the taller gearing. I do not shift into 5th gear at speeds less than 60mph, and at 70 mph the engine is turning 3,925 rpm according to the chart Serowbot prepared. It will pull 5th gear to a speed somewhere around 85mph before the air resistance wins the battle. For higher speeds I need to shift into 4th gear.

Doing engine modifications with the stock gearing will allow you to accelerate faster, the Wiseco will make your engine more efficient and can increase your fuel mileage a bit (at the expense of using premium fuel), cam changes most likely will reduce your mileage a bit. If you have a windshield, saddlebags or are a "plus size" rider.....try the front Kawasaki pulley change first. I am not sure how well the double Kawasaki pulley conversion would work with a windshield as you are pushing a lot of wind out of the way.....although the difference may not be all that much as you would be pushing the wind out of the way with your body anyhow.

Should you tear a good running stock motor down to make these improvements.......that is a hard decision to make. Gearing and engine changes can make 70 mph much nicer - but it is a lot of work and is pretty expensive. In some instances you may be paying as much for the engine upgrades as you paid for the bike.

Title: Re: Engine Rebuild Tips and Opinions
Post by Iceman4193 on 06/28/15 at 12:42:50

42797463727E656378707D62110 wrote:

I think I would like to do a build similar to yours Dave. Any chance you might be able to point me in the right direction for where you got your parts?

Overall I'm thinking:
95mm Wiseco
34mm VM slide Mikuni
Stage 1 or 3 cam (Still trying to decide on that)
1.5" Header
Not sure about the muffler I would like to get
Kawa pulley (front, back, or both?)
New clutch (Probably just gonna stick with the stock)
New Cam Chain.

Not sure what kinda price I'm looking at so if you guys know of places with good prices I'm all ears.

Title: Re: Engine Rebuild Tips and Opinions
Post by Dave on 06/28/15 at 13:07:45

I got some of my parts from Lancer, some on eBay, and some by sending my cam directly to Webcam.

The stock clutch appear to be adequate...provided that you have not polluted it with oil that has any friction modifiers and wait until the engine and oil is fully warmed up before you do any full throttle acceleration.

With the work you are planning....you need a little bit of work on the exhaust port to smooth the flow and eliminate a portion of the restricting doughnut.

Title: Re: Engine Rebuild Tips and Opinions
Post by Iceman4193 on 06/29/15 at 17:07:47

Alright, Ill PM Lancer for some prices.
Just to get a ball park, how much did your engine mods run you?

Title: Re: Engine Rebuild Tips and Opinions
Post by Dave on 06/29/15 at 17:58:33

I am scared to add it all up. One of the scariest things is that I spent close to $ 200 just on gaskets, oil seals and bearings.

I have the records at the office and can get a ball park - but I suspect I am well on my way to $ 1,500! I did get some of that back as I sold the low mileage piston and cylinder on eBay.

Title: Re: Engine Rebuild Tips and Opinions
Post by Iceman4193 on 06/30/15 at 19:58:38

Gasket sets for this bike are 200?!

Title: Re: Engine Rebuild Tips and Opinions
Post by Dave on 07/01/15 at 03:00:36

2923252D212E74717973400 wrote:

Gasket sets for this bike are 200?!

No....closer to $ 100. But I needed new crank and balancing shaft bearings. Then when you add new seals for the pulley, right crank, shifter, valves.....and all those little sealing washers for the cylinder head cover and right engine cover......and you need to buy a new Head Plug so that doesn't leak (new Verslagen one)......and then you need to buy a new tube of Suzuki Bond....and it all adds up.

UPDATE: I was pretty close with my $ 1,500 guess. I just looked at my invoices and the right crank bearing was $ 75.41 alone and I have close to $100 for the crank bearings! The total is about $ 1,400 without the muffler change. Webcam recommends hardwelding the rockers so I did it.....from what I understand the stock rockers work fine with the Webcam.

BEARINGS, SEALS, GASKETS, LOCK WASHER FOR PULLEY $ 326.32
CAM SENT DIRECTLY TO WEB CAM, $ 155.00
HARDWELD ROCKERS (PROBABLY NOT REQUIRED) $ 190.00
WISECO 95MM PISTON $ 149.95
BORE AND SILICONE CARBIDE COATING ON CYLINDER $ 165.00
MIKUNI CARB KIT $ 389.00
UNI FOAM AIR FILTER $ 18.99

Title: Re: Engine Rebuild Tips and Opinions
Post by Iceman4193 on 07/01/15 at 18:15:24

Oh wow. Looking back now do you think you could do the same quality job for less or is that pretty much what it will cost?

Title: Re: Engine Rebuild Tips and Opinions
Post by squiggy on 07/01/15 at 18:32:45

Why so much for the Mikuni carb?

Also, can you explain "hard weld rockers"?

Title: Re: Engine Rebuild Tips and Opinions
Post by Dave on 07/01/15 at 18:44:05

The Mikuni Carb is a full kit from Lancer. It has the rubber adapter for the cylinder, the correct "initial" jetting and a selection of pilot and main jets so you can dial it in, a jetting manual from Sudco, and the correct throttle cable for the Savage. You have to be careful just buying the Mikuni as it may be jetted for a 2 stroke....and you may have to change the slide for the proper cut away and the needle jet and jet needle may not be correct. Those are expensive pieces to buy seperate.

Hardwelding the rockers is done be Webcam and it makes a wearing surface that is compatible with their welded cams. I found out later that the hardwelded rockers most likely is not necessary as the stock rockers hold up well with the Webcam.

I needed crank bearings.....so you wouldn't likely need to spend that $ 100 on your engine, and you can save $ 190 if you don't get your rockers hardwelded (but may lose the warranty from Webcam). And you can use the stock carb.....I ran my engine for a year on the stock carb, filter and air box - and it ran well when property jetted (#150 main, 50 pilot, 2 washers on the needle).

I would not have anyone else do the cylinder than Boretech.....and I would spend the extra money and get the silicone carbide treatment. This is just money well spent and there is no reason to be cheap about getting your cylinder bored properly.

And you don't need to do all of this to get a better running engine. The Stage 1 or Stage 3 cams do a good job alone. The Wiseco would be the next thing to change (and some cylinder port work while the head is off).....and that would make an excellent running engine.

Title: Re: Engine Rebuild Tips and Opinions
Post by squiggy on 07/02/15 at 04:53:21

Thank you for the info. Bought my wife a 2007 to learn on last week and I am already planning on her either wanting more out of the bike or switching to something bigger when she gets comfortable. If she switches, I plan on turning it into a project bike.

Title: Re: Engine Rebuild Tips and Opinions
Post by Dave on 07/02/15 at 05:21:57

It just depends on what kind or riding you need to do. The stock Savage is a great commuter bike as long as you don't do long interstate rides, and it has plenty of power to break most speed limits on roads that have intersections instead of "ramps". It is also a great play bike on the twisty back roads where the torque really helps avoid the need to do a lot of shifting and braking.

The used bikes are generally cheap enough that you can justify spending a bit of money on power improvements....provided you can live with a bike that is quicker - but not really fast. You can buy a used and nearly pristine Kawasaki EX500 for $ 2,500 - $ 3,000 that will leave the Savage far behind when it comes to speed....but a vintage sport bike is not what everyone is comfortable riding.

Title: Re: Engine Rebuild Tips and Opinions
Post by squiggy on 07/02/15 at 05:36:25

4E75786F7E72696F747C716E1D0 wrote:

It will be more of a project bike in the sense of learning how to tear apart and rebuild engines and such. Thinking of going the bobber route with it if my wife wants something else.

To me this is just a fun bike to ride. In the past, I have had a Rebel 250 and a Shadow 600. Currently have a Sportster 1200 and a Honda Fury 1300. I had to ride the Savage home from the dealership and couldn't not stop laughing when I sat down on it due to feeling like being on a scooter compared to my Fury, but once I got a few miles down the road, I realized how much fun this little bike is!

Title: Re: Engine Rebuild Tips and Opinions
Post by Dave on 07/02/15 at 05:56:33

Yep...the Savage is a fun bike to ride.

I just brought this thread back up for discussion:

http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1338924345/0#9

Title: Re: Engine Rebuild Tips and Opinions
Post by Iceman4193 on 07/02/15 at 18:04:40

I'm not looking to break speed records, and I mainly do cruising, but being able to open it up and smile a little is definitely nice.

I am doing it to learn as well and I would like to have something that I built up myself.

I need to look around for some parts distributors that might be able to drop the price of non-performance parts like gaskets and bearings and all.

Obviously with the Jug, Piston, Cam, and Carb I have to go with either Lancer or if I can find somewhere else but I don't want to buy junk either.

But any leads on where to look would be appreciated.

How do you guys think my setup will go and what I should be able to expect?

96mm Wiesco (Any other options for manufacturers?)
34mm VM Slide Mikuni
Still thinking about the cam but leaning to the stage 3
1.5 Inch header
Sprocket conversion to better suit highway riding (Kawa only option?)
Maybe swap out the valve springs for the new cam.

Title: Re: Engine Rebuild Tips and Opinions
Post by Art Webb on 07/02/15 at 20:59:06

yup the savage is a great commuter and a good backroads bike
If you do faster, straighter roads a lot (like say if you live in my area) you'll eventually want more bike
I did today, on my 'long' ride (close to 100 miles)
seat was killing my butt, bike was feeling strained here and there
she handled it, but I really enjoy that loop better on the XS11

Title: Re: Engine Rebuild Tips and Opinions
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 07/02/15 at 21:20:22

For me, fun is in pulling away from a stop and accelerating out of a turn.
Well,there IS being wound up pretty tight and downshifting , braking and falling into a corner.. I still remember the best one of those I ever did.

Title: Re: Engine Rebuild Tips and Opinions
Post by Art Webb on 07/02/15 at 21:43:20

that's my fun, too, there's just so much straight, and so much long sweeper in this area
on the Dragon the S40 makes more sense, though a small sportbike or motard would make more sense there

Title: Re: Engine Rebuild Tips and Opinions
Post by Dave on 07/03/15 at 03:21:31

2F25232B272872777F75460 wrote:

How do you guys think my setup will go and what I should be able to expect?

96mm Wiesco (Any other options for manufacturers?)
34mm VM Slide Mikuni
Still thinking about the cam but leaning to the stage 3
1.5 Inch header
Sprocket conversion to better suit highway riding (Kawa only option?)
Maybe swap out the valve springs for the new cam.

That is the "standard" hop up for this bike....except you don't need to do anything with the valve springs....and you do need to have a little bit of work done to the exhaust port (especially the ring at the exit of the exhaust port) to get the full benefit.

You will notice a significant increase is engine response and power.

I personally prefer the belt over the chain.....and the Kawasaki pulley conversion works fine on my bike. One member had trouble with his.....nobody has figure out why yet.

Title: Re: Engine Rebuild Tips and Opinions
Post by Iceman4193 on 07/05/15 at 12:46:12

576C6176676B70766D656877040 wrote:

[quote author=2F25232B272872777F75460 link=1426824118/45#47 date=1435885480]How do you guys think my setup will go and what I should be able to expect?

96mm Wiesco (Any other options for manufacturers?)
34mm VM Slide Mikuni
Still thinking about the cam but leaning to the stage 3
1.5 Inch header
Sprocket conversion to better suit highway riding (Kawa only option?)
Maybe swap out the valve springs for the new cam.

Title: Re: Engine Rebuild Tips and Opinions
Post by verslagen1 on 07/05/15 at 12:56:45

6C666068646B31343C36050 wrote:

Oh I didnt realize it was a chain conversion. I thought it was just large sprockets.

I would prefer to keep the belt, just go with a smaller front or larger rear to make highway riding RPM a bit less

that is a belt drive with kawasaki pulleys

you want bigger front smaller rear, or some combination thereof.

Title: Re: Engine Rebuild Tips and Opinions
Post by Iceman4193 on 07/09/15 at 17:18:42

23302726393432303B64550 wrote:

[quote author=6C666068646B31343C36050 link=1426824118/45#52 date=1436125572]Oh I didnt realize it was a chain conversion. I thought it was just large sprockets.

I would prefer to keep the belt, just go with a smaller front or larger rear to make highway riding RPM a bit less

that is a belt drive with kawasaki pulleys

you want bigger front smaller rear, or some combination thereof.[/quote]

Awesome, is there a way to figure out what speeds I can expect at what RPM with various size pullies?

Title: Re: Engine Rebuild Tips and Opinions
Post by Dave on 07/09/15 at 18:47:40

You don't have much of a pulley selection to choose from. The Kawasaki EN454 front pulley can be machined to work.....and it changes the stock 23 teeth to 25 teeth. The rear pulley that can be adapted is a Kawasaki KZ750 and it changes the stock 68 to 65 teeth.

The front pulley conversion can be done alone, the rear pulley has to be changed in conjunction with the front pulley or the belt becomes too long. This is not just a bolt on change...it requires significant machining to make them work. You need a milling machine or lathe with carbide cutters for the front pulley, and a drill press and lathe for the rear pulley convesion.

Title: Re: Engine Rebuild Tips and Opinions
Post by Iceman4193 on 07/15/15 at 17:45:59

Well that sounds complex.

I was wondering to about the ignition system. Do you have to make any alterations in the firing time when you upgrade the engine or does the stock system work well?

Title: Re: Engine Rebuild Tips and Opinions
Post by Dave on 07/15/15 at 18:27:28

I have not heard of anyone altering the timing, however I was wondering if retarding the timing a bit might be beneficial with the higher compression piston.

Title: Re: Engine Rebuild Tips and Opinions
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 07/15/15 at 18:27:52

Modifying the timing isn't something I'm aware of anyone doing. It's been talked about, but I don't think anyone has. And, I did a Stage One cam, Supertrapp, gutted the header, fourteen disks on the Trapp, rejetted and the only hassle I had was needing to tweak the idle up at first start, down as it warmed up.. But it ran great.

Title: Re: Engine Rebuild Tips and Opinions
Post by Iceman4193 on 07/16/15 at 19:14:46

Im just wondering with the high comp piston if playing with the timing would help get even more out of the mods ya know?

Title: Re: Engine Rebuild Tips and Opinions
Post by verslagen1 on 07/16/15 at 19:22:28

You retard the timing to prevent pinging.
and advance for more zoom.

but the pickup is pretty hard to get to.

Title: Re: Engine Rebuild Tips and Opinions
Post by Iceman4193 on 07/17/15 at 11:03:10

While doing the piston swap and all do you come across it at any point to be able to make adjustments? Im not sure where it is

Title: Re: Engine Rebuild Tips and Opinions
Post by Serowbot on 07/17/15 at 11:08:26

23302726393432303B64550 wrote:

You retard the timing to prevent pinging.
and advance for more zoom.

The preferred nomenclature is "challenge"... You challenge the timing... :-?...

Title: Re: Engine Rebuild Tips and Opinions
Post by verslagen1 on 07/17/15 at 11:40:11

313B3D3539366C69616B580 wrote:

While doing the piston swap and all do you come across it at any point to be able to make adjustments? Im not sure where it is

It's under the stator cover.

Title: Re: Engine Rebuild Tips and Opinions
Post by Iceman4193 on 07/17/15 at 13:04:29

opposite side as the oil filter?

Title: Re: Engine Rebuild Tips and Opinions
Post by Dave on 07/17/15 at 14:03:03

646E68606C63393C343E0D0 wrote:

opposite side as the oil filter?

Can't help but wonder where you are headed with this. You don't know where it is....and you want to modify it?

Little black coil in the following photo is the pickkup......

http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w417/timmanzano/Mobile%20Uploads/20150715_090453_zpsahht3wtu.jpg

Title: Re: Engine Rebuild Tips and Opinions
Post by Iceman4193 on 07/17/15 at 14:12:09

Only one way to learn right?

Title: Re: Engine Rebuild Tips and Opinions
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 07/17/15 at 16:52:41

When I was nineteen a guy at the parts store told me that the best thing I could do for my car was knock a hole in the hood and drop a chain through, bring it around the bumper and chain the hood down and leave it alone.

I don't recommend a newbie starting at such a place. Honestly, I recommend getting some miles on it. Enjoy riding, learn basic maintenance, deal with valve adjustments and cam chain tensioner, tune the carb and exhaust. Get comfortable with the thing, then dive in. Risking screwing it up before you have a chance to have fun with it seems kinda screwy.

Title: Re: Engine Rebuild Tips and Opinions
Post by Iceman4193 on 07/19/15 at 09:11:18

7D6264637E7948784870626E25170 wrote:

Title: Re: Engine Rebuild Tips and Opinions
Post by Art Webb on 07/19/15 at 09:22:23

3832343C303F65606862510 wrote:

[quote author=7D6264637E7948784870626E25170 link=1426824118/60#67 date=1437177161]When I was nineteen a guy at the parts store told me that the best thing I could do for my car was knock a hole in the hood and drop a chain through, bring it around the bumper and chain the hood down and leave it alone.

I don't recommend a newbie starting at such a place. Honestly, I recommend getting some miles on it. Enjoy riding, learn basic maintenance, deal with valve adjustments and cam chain tensioner, tune the carb and exhaust. Get comfortable with the thing, then dive in. Risking screwing it up before you have a chance to have fun with it seems kinda screwy.

I've been a mechanic professionally for a few months (Diesels) and I have done all my own work since before I could drive :D
I know the engine components, just with bikes, and then this bike in particular, things are a little different. Like I said I just like to get a general idea of where things are before I start rather than just exploring as I go ;D[/quote]
That's where I started, too
You'll find bikes much easier, so far as repair goes
You'll find it harder to find extra HP though, the factory does a pretty good job squeezing the power out of a bike motor
There's a little left in there, but not much, without chnging cams, tec

Title: Re: Engine Rebuild Tips and Opinions
Post by Iceman4193 on 07/19/15 at 12:24:11

I'm going that route. Already have my 97mm Wiseco and gonna be getting the 36mm VM soon. Just need a Stage 3 Cam, 1.5" Header, Cylinder Bore, and either a chain conversion for a lower gear ratio or if I can find belt pullies that would work to keep the belt.

And ya, gas is much easier and cleaner that DSL

Title: Re: Engine Rebuild Tips and Opinions
Post by Art Webb on 07/20/15 at 09:33:38

Sounds like fun, I just don't have the drive to do all that work ;D

Title: Re: Engine Rebuild Tips and Opinions
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 07/20/15 at 10:39:44

If you're going that far, I'd consider the cylinder treatment. The machinist needs the piston,
When I did the Raptor top end, piston replacement, bored,, the Yamaha rings had excessive end gap. The shop owner kept seeing me at the counter, walked up, the parts guy said
These are what we use.
I said
The manual says end gap not to exceed,,x,, thousandths..

Owner told him,
Find this guy a piston and rings that meet spec. And we eat the difference.

Wow, was I happy! IIRC, they took about a thirty dollar hickey.

Don't ignore the valves, at least turn the head upside down and level and dump gas in. If it's leaking, you'll see. Since you're jacking up the job they're going to be doing, maybe just take it to the shop and get the valves done. It's not really that pricey.

Just because a manufacturer puts rings in a box with a piston for a certain bore size doesn't mean you shouldn't measure the end gap..

Title: Re: Engine Rebuild Tips and Opinions
Post by HovisPresley on 07/20/15 at 16:24:09

Personally, I've got a Wiseco 95mm piston sitting on my table (+rings, gudgeon/wrist pin).
I found a place near Cambridge, UK, that specialises in rebores/silicon carbide lining.
I, also, am planning on a stage 3 cam and carb upgrade, when funds allow.
Any project of getting the Savage to be able to 'strut it's stuff' will wait till the winter, when there's no riding time to be lost.
It's good to buy things gradually, as I can afford them, with a winter strip-down in mind....
Nice project, Iceman, I look forward to your updates 8-)

PS. +1 Justin for measuring the ring gaps... good advice :)

Title: Re: Engine Rebuild Tips and Opinions
Post by Iceman4193 on 07/20/15 at 16:59:06

Oh ya the valves are getting new seals, reseated, ground and cleaned, port and polish of the head. I never half :-X my work so I will be doing it all.

My first time doing a rebuild and although I am fairly confident, I know I will get stumped here or their so I will likely start a thread to outline my work and if I get stuck just ask around here.

Title: Re: Engine Rebuild Tips and Opinions
Post by HovisPresley on 07/20/15 at 17:06:03

Nice one :)
Remember that the camera on your phone can be your ally!
As you disassemble the engine...take lots of pics...they can only help when the thing goes back together again!
I, for one, will being following your blog ;)

(I'd be wary of playing with the ignition timing, though)

Title: Re: Engine Rebuild Tips and Opinions
Post by Iceman4193 on 07/21/15 at 18:56:55

Thanks man. Hoping all goes well. Just got a new job starting soon that is about 100 mile round trip so having a nicely thumping savage would be cool.

Title: Re: Engine Rebuild Tips and Opinions
Post by Jdvt600 on 06/29/20 at 15:45:34

Bumping to the top! Tons of good information in this thread. I'm at a point where I'm bordering on purchasing some of the larger upgrades. This thread has provided an in depth understanding of the performance upgrades.

@Dave/all, do we know today if the rework or hard welding of the rockers are necessary or if the oem has his held up over the years? Looking at Lancer's current page, it's $110 and $240. I haven't checked the current warranty policy so that might be the ultimate factor. Regardless, I'm still curious if we've gotten any data over the years.