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Engine Rebuild Tips and Opinions (Read 1071 times)
Iceman4193
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Engine Rebuild Tips and Opinions
03/19/15 at 21:01:58
 
Alright, so I have bad compression on my 2001 LS650P and I am not getting the performance I am looking for. So I am going to be tearing down the engine soon to do some modifications and replacing the seals and all. I figured while I am doing this, rather than replacing or reusing stock parts, why not make my bike one of a kind and really have some fun with it. Since I have not done this before, I figured I should hit the watering hole and ask around to get some opinions and get an idea of options that are available for consideration.

I currently have a 2001 LS650P with 22K miles on it. Modifications so far are:
K&N Drop in air filter
Dyna Exhaust
Versy Cam Chain Adjuster
152.5M 52.5P 2/3 Spacer Mod
Raptor Petcock
and various cosmetic things.

What I am looking for so far:
A Large Bore Cylinder and Piston (97mm or so)
Performance Carb for proper air flow to the bigger bore
Performance Cam
Ported Exhaust
Raask Header?
New cylinder head?
Bigger Valves?

Since I am going to have it all apart, what are some of your ideas for improvements, where do you like to get your parts, and what have you done to your own that has worked or has not worked so I know what to avoid.

I am open to any ideas and for me this is going to be a learning experience as well as a bit of fun.

Thanks guys! Cool
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Flint
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Re: Engine Rebuild Tips and Opinions
Reply #1 - 03/19/15 at 23:02:05
 
The fellows on this site know more about  the S40 than Suzuki does.  Be patient.
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jcstokes
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Re: Engine Rebuild Tips and Opinions
Reply #2 - 03/19/15 at 23:13:32
 
The 97mm piston may be hard to find, 95 mm appears easier. You will need to contact Lancer on this forum, who manufactures various cam profiles. Some people use a variety of carburettors , you should check the tech section about this, and the marketplace for Lancer's gear. Porting the exhaust area may help. Don't know about larger valves. The techies will.
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Dave
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Re: Engine Rebuild Tips and Opinions
Reply #3 - 03/20/15 at 03:33:05
 
The first thing you need to consider....is that this is a big single, and it is a very primitive one that was not designed to make HP.  You can make this engine run better - you will never make it fast.  Anyone that makes big HP and speeds claims has most likely never ridden a really fast bike.  I am going to use the term "power" in this discussion as the big single really makes torque...not so much HP.  HP is torque multiplied by rpm (work) - but in this engine you will not be able to increase the rpm so you will never be able to make big HP numbers.  With engine improvements and an aggressive launch you may be the first one across the intersection.....you will never be the first one to the end of the block!

There is nothing available for larger valves and a different cylinder head.

Cylinder head mods would be the removal of some of the donut in the exhaust port, and a smoothing out of the ports.  You can't do too much to the nasty bump in the exhaust port, as that is below the valve springs and will make the area weak if you take away too much material.  Most likely the cylinder head is the limiting factor to what you can do with this bike (and the long stroke).

The stock 94 mm (652cc) piston is low compression, the piston upgrades are generally around 10.5:1 compression - but we don't know for sure as the piston was really made for the DR650 and just happens to work in the Savage if you bore the cylinder.  The Wiseco is available in 95mm (666cc) and 96mm (680cc), and the 97mm (694cc) used to be available in the Wiseco - but now the Woessner piston is the only one available.  Although the Wiseco is more known - Woessner have a very good reputation and product.  The size of the piston to choose is a personal choice and open to debate.  A big part of the performance improvement comes from the increased compression - but you will have to start using Premium fuel.  When I built my engine I chose the 95mm, as most of the time I am cruising around at partial throttle and I really don't need the extra cc's sucking air and using fuel...if I ride really carefully I can get 62 mpg.  The 95mm is the smallest you can go, and with each bigger piston you are only gaining 2% in engine size.....so the difference in piston size is not really all that significant.  All 3 piston sizes will give you a significant bump in "torque" over the stock low compression piston.

There are 3 cam grinds available for this engine.  The Stage 1 cam is the mildest, the Stage 2 cam is the wildest, and the Stage 3 cam is a cross between the other and has the mild duration of the Stage 1 cam with the increased lift of the Stage 2 cam.  None of the grinds are aggressive race cams - you can look at Lancer's page for a better description of where the cam makes power.  Once again I chose the Stage 1 cam as I do a lot of cruising and making big POWER numbers are not as important to me as the ability to cruise around on my bike all day.  The increased lift of the Stage 2 and Stage 3 cams may promote a little more wear on the cam lobes, rockers and valve guides - but Oldfeller has been running a Stage 2 cam in his bike for years and hasn't worn anything out yet.  Make sure you use an oil with 1,200 to 1,400 ppm of ZDDP to protect the cam and rockers from wear.

The stock header is about 1-1/4" diameter and is a bit restrictive - but does work OK as long as you have a non-restrictive muffler. You should not install a header that is more than 1-1/2" diameter for best performance.  The DYNA muffler works great on a stock engine - but may be a bit too restrictive once you want to make more power.  You need to avoid any muffler that does not have some form of baffle (drag pipe), as those can cause jetting problems and flat spots in the power curve.

The stock carb can run OK with engine mods, as can the stock air cleaner box.  A switch to a Mikuni round slide VM carb is proven system, and the 34mm is most likely the best choice as the idle and low speed manners are better than the larger 36mm carb.  The carb is just a bit more responsive as it does not have the vacuum operated slide and reacts almost instantly to what your throttle hand does.  However you need to learn proper throttle control.....you can't just "whack" the throttle open when you accelerate and have to "roll" the throttle on.  Instantly opening the throttle slide can cause the vacuum in the carb to drop so much that the fuel will stop being pulled into the engine.  The VM carb also doesn't have the TEV valve, and if you let the slide drop completely back closed between shifts or while you are compression braking you will get lots of backfires out the muffler.  You need to keep the throttle open just a tiny bit between shifts and while you are slowing down to keep the engine from making a lot of noise.  You can make the bike really noisy or really quiet....it all depends on what you do with your right wrist.  (You just open the throttle enough to add some fuel flow and make the noise go away).

The stock air box and the drop in K&N works just fine.....the cone filters don't make the bike run any better.              

The stock clutch can handle these improvements - as long as the clutch has never been exposed to any oil with friction modifiers, and you don't apply full throttle while the engine oil is still cold and thick.  Installing stronger springs can cause the little metal piece inside the clutch housing that pushes on the clutch rod to break...it is made from some form of powdered metal and is not all that strong.

Having to run Premium fuel can be a curse not only because of the extra cost - but the rumors are that the Premium fuel sits in the tanks at the gas stations longer and can be old when you buy it.  I did a long term fuel test to see how fuel holds up, and the Premium was the first fuel to deteriorate and go through the phase separation where the ethanol settles out of the gasoline.  Also when you pull up to a pump that dispenses all 3 grades (mixer pump), the chances are that although you hit the switch for Premium - the hose will most likely be filled with Regular from the car that was in front of you....and you will be getting 1/2 gallon of Regular with your 1-1/2 gallon of Premium.

So...yes you can improve the engine pretty easily...as long as you are handy with a checkbook.  The engine will be much more responsive, able to pull higher gearing, and a bit faster.....but it will not be fast!  Mine is as fast as an 883 Sportster up to 80mph....beyond that is starts to run out of power - but I can get up over 100 given enough room.
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Gary_in_NJ
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Re: Engine Rebuild Tips and Opinions
Reply #4 - 03/20/15 at 06:09:34
 
Great post Dave. Probably the best description of available engine mods I've seen for this engine. Sticky?

Iceman, regarding the low compression, I'd want to know WHY there is low compression before I invest a lot of time and money into the engine. For example, is the head cracked?

The basic compression test is almost useless as a diagnostic tool. I would suggest a differential compression test (aka leak-down test) to determine the loss compression. The differential compression test attempts to hold a known value of pressure in the cylinder. If there is a problem you can determine where the compression loss is happening by where the air is leaking. As a general rule...

Air out the breather = rings (slow leak)
Air out the breather = hole in piston (fast leak)
Air out the exhaust = exhaust valve, seat or guides
Air out the carb = intake valve, seat or guides
Air from between the head & cylinder = head gasket
Air out of the cylinder or head means a crack in that component.

As you can see, this type of compression test is a real tool.
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Re: Engine Rebuild Tips and Opinions
Reply #5 - 03/20/15 at 06:23:11
 
I certainly want to wait and have Lancer comment....he is the pioneer in the Savage engine hop ups, and has most likely built the most aggressive Savage engine on the forum (REX).


One more thing I wanted to say....is that you need to have a really competent machinist do the cylinder bore.  The clearances and roundness and surface finish are really important.  A lot of shops don't bore cylinders regularly...and may not be all that good at it.

If the cylinder is bored with too much clearance you are basically starting out the a brand new worn out piston/cylinder.  The piston will rattle, you could burn oil and have low compression and a lot of piston blow by.

If the cylinder is bored too tight the piston and rings can seize in the bore when the engine is running.  This will ruin your day.....along with all the new piston/cylinder parts.

If the cylinder does not have a good cross hatch pattern, the rings may never seat properly and you can have lot of oil usage and blow by out the breather tube.

The silicone carbide treatment it a good product for long service life from the new piston and cylinder bore.

   
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Suzukisavvy
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Re: Engine Rebuild Tips and Opinions
Reply #6 - 03/20/15 at 07:17:24
 
Well the first thought that comes to my mind, do you have the tools to machine the engine to fir all of the performance parts? Sounds like a lot of hard work for a simple single cylinder engine. The stock parts are close to all the more power you can get out of an engine like that. Honestly of you want to get power, find a twin engine and put it on the frame if you love the bike that much! Sorry, but just my oppinion but good luck to you! Post pictures too so i can see!! Cool
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justin_o_guy2
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Re: Engine Rebuild Tips and Opinions
Reply #7 - 03/20/15 at 08:30:53
 
I chose the Savage,, low , light, enough power to get me outta trouble in traffic, not designed to carve corners like a race bike, but it Will run thru a curve grinding a peg. There's no point in having more power than the rider can Safely use. I did rejet, mod the exhaust, up to a Stage One cam, Then we were matched. If I had Lancers (I'm bad with names, might have who has done the most power mods wrong  ) bike I couldn't run it thru the Dragon as fast as he can, I'd bet. The question is, how good of a rider are you?
How fast can you run thru  a corner on a cruiser? You might find yourself very pleased with an economy rebuild, and get to riding sooner with more gas and tire money in the budget. I hope that before you decide on how it's going back together you consider Not going Full On .
I wanna say Serowbot has his cylinder treated, nitride? Sounds like a possibly intelligent thing to do...
Accurate machining is a big deal here..
Ditching weight equals immediate results.
Jacking the rear end up increases ground clearance and helps handling.
Being 60 and remembering NOT being 60,,,,
Do the compression check outlined above.
If it can be coaxed to run, if the rings have stuck, maybe, dumping diesel and Seafoam or any number of solvents in would help...


I sure hope you didn't pull the plug and let the crud that accumulates in the cavity it sits in fall in.. cuz That would mess with the compression..

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Iceman4193
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Re: Engine Rebuild Tips and Opinions
Reply #8 - 03/20/15 at 18:29:15
 
Awesome feedback so far guys, it is much appreciated. Dave I like your write up, informative as always.

I know that if I am trying to go as fast as possible that this bike is limited, but like I said initially, I'm really doing this as a learning experience as well. I have done work on engines here and there since I was like 14 but a few months ago I actually got a job as a mechanic apprentice and detailer working on a fleet of ambulances here in Florida. I am learning a lot from the mechanic I work with who has been riding for like 40 years but as far as this bike goes, if I am gonna have an opportunity to learn about performance mods and engine work, this is the time.

Overall, I want to do this bike up in a cruiser style. I appreciate the bobber and cafe racer builds, but they have never really been for me. I am looking for a nice comfy ride with some serious thump to it. If I can get this single cylinder to beat out some stock harley's while I'm at it then I am in no shortage of finding them here in south FL  Grin

However I still want engine reliability and I would prefer not to drop down to 30 MPG with a 300 pound bike, Unless I am doing 0-60 in 3 seconds or something  Cool

I would consider myself a very good rider with very positive control of the bike, quick reaction time, and good situational awareness (I am also a pilot) so I think I would be able to handle the bump in torque and HP I am hoping to get.

Dave, Do you have a link to the REX build you mentioned so I can read about it?
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Iceman4193
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Re: Engine Rebuild Tips and Opinions
Reply #9 - 03/20/15 at 18:58:02
 
In fact, This guy has a build I can only drool over. I would love to have something very similar

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U5Yd2BrlDDI
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Re: Engine Rebuild Tips and Opinions
Reply #10 - 03/21/15 at 05:25:25
 
That is a really nice looking Savage you posted from YouTube.  Nicely done.

You can find REX in post 85 of this thread.  I have never ridden it, MMRanch rode it a few years ago and commented the front end liked to come up when you got on the throttle!
http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1338581006/85#85

My engine is at the bottom end of the performance mods, smallest Wiseco, smallest cam grind, some port work, stock header, 34mm Mikuni, and it runs great and does has a significant boost in power.  I have a traffic sign on a nearby road that serves as my "speed indicator"  My Pontiac Vibe can accelerate to 55 mph by the time I reach the sign, my 250 Ninja is at 60, my Savage Cafe' has reached 65, and my Honda ST1100 has reached 85.  Most stock Harley's are in a pretty mild state of tune and with a modified engine you will be able to keep up with them pretty well...any sport bike over 300cc is going to beat you easily.

Yep....it is a fun project.  The most tedious part is getting the jetting right, and even on a stock engine this can make a huge difference in the power, smoothness and mpg the bike gets.  The stock jetting makes for decent emission compliance - but not always smooth running.
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Re: Engine Rebuild Tips and Opinions
Reply #11 - 03/21/15 at 08:10:51
 
Tell us what You want , and someone will tell you what you hafta do to get it.
Read my posts, if I didn't have six second 0-60 times, it was real close..
And I never took the head off.
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Re: Engine Rebuild Tips and Opinions
Reply #12 - 03/21/15 at 09:29:08
 
So possibly I would be thinking about a 96 or 97mm bore, a stage 3 cam, I have to t hink about the carb but probably the 34 if it would provide enough to the jug and a port and 1 1/2" header.

Do you think the dyna would be enough flow for  that because I know the jugs on a dyna are like 700cc each or so.

As far as the body goes, I would like to do some mods to get it looking like the streamline shape of the boulevard. I think that bike looks amazing.
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Re: Engine Rebuild Tips and Opinions
Reply #13 - 03/21/15 at 09:58:45
 
Iceman4193 wrote on 03/21/15 at 09:29:08:
Do you think the dyna would be enough flow for  that because I know the jugs on a dyna are like 700cc each or so.


No, the DYNA is fine for the stock engine, and the DYNA the muffler came from as they are not making much power.  The DYNA muffler does not have a lot of holes in the baffle and would restrict flow for a hopped up engine.

The EMGO muffler can work, and I can show you what to do to make it a lot less noisy.  The Supertrapp can work - but it is pretty loud as well and is expensive.  Some of the sport bike mufflers are very tempting to try and a little bit of welding could adapt them easily.
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Iceman4193
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Re: Engine Rebuild Tips and Opinions
Reply #14 - 03/21/15 at 12:51:45
 
I'd be looking for a low pitched mid volume pipe. Not so loud that it annoys the rider but I do love the noise of a single lol.
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