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Fork & Shock Improvements for Café Conversions (Read 3204 times)
Gary_in_NJ
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Re: Fork Improvements for RYCA Café Conversions
Reply #75 - 07/01/16 at 06:13:05
 
Additional Tuning Notes

The suspension on a motorcycle is a system. The forks and shocks have to work in balance for good performance and a comfortable ride. This article is focused on the forks and specifically CS-1 Café forks with RaceTech Gold Valve Emulators (GVE) installed. By using GVE you have greater ability to adjust and tune the performance of the forks to suit your needs. GVE allow you to adjust compression damping and rebound damping. But before we get to that, let’s understand what it is that we are trying to balance. We can break this down into four elements:

1.      Unsprung Weight – The weight of the wheels, tires and brake components
2.      Sprung Weight – The weight of the bike (excluding unsprung weight) and the rider
3.      Springs – The part of the suspension that supports the sprung weight
4.      Damping – The aspect of the suspension that controls how fast the suspension moves (compresses and rebounds).

In sentence structure, the springs support the sprung weight of the bike and rider and damping controls how fast the suspension compresses and rebounds. Simple, right?

There are five different adjustable elements to understand to properly tune your forks so they suit your riding style and weight.

1.      Fork Springs

What do they do?
They support the sprung weight of the bike and rider. A spring has a neutral position when unladed (sitting in the box), a static position (installed and preloaded for the bike and rider) and a dynamic position (moving while riding due to road irregularities, braking and acceleration). When in a dynamic position the spring will always be seeking its static position.

How are they adjusted?

The first adjustment is choosing the correct spring for bike and rider. Once you’ve confirmed that you are using the correct straight-rate spring, the way to fine tune the spring is through preloading. You preload (pre compress) the springs by adjusting the length of the spring stack (GVE, spring, spacer, washers and cap) by adding or removing shims (washers) that are placed between the fork cap and the spacer. If you have adjustable fork caps you can make the adjustments very easily without disassembling the forks by turning the adjusting rod in the fork cap.

How do I know when it’s right?

There are two types of sag settings that you need to set; static sag; the amount the spring compresses under the load of the bike, and race (also known as total) sag; the amount the spring compresses with the rider on the bike, in a riding position. You want about 10mm of static sag and 25% to 30% of your suspension travel for total sag. This equates to 32mm to 38mm of sag for our 127mm of travel.

2.      Compression Damping via Gold Valve Emulator (GVE)

What is it?
Compression Damping controls the rate (or speed) that the forks can compress. We know that the spring is always seeking its static position. Without damping the spring will seek this position as fast as it can and the inertia of the bike and rider will cause the spring to overshoot its movement towards the static position. Without damping the bike will feel as though you are riding in a rodeo. Too little compression damping results in a fork that goes through its initial stroke too quickly (and feels mushy) and too much compression results in a fork that feels stiff/harsh.

How is it adjusted?
The GVE is adjusted by selecting the correct spring (yellow, blue or silver) and then preloading it so the valve opens under the right circumstances. For the CS-1 Café application the #40 blue spring is used with a baseline preload of 2-1/2 turns out. Increasing the preload increase the damping (stiffer) and decreasing the preload decreases the damping.

How do I know when it’s right?
You’re gonna hate this answer, but it’s the truth – you’ll know when it’s right when you like it. If the forks are harsh, reduce the preload on the GVE by 1/2 a turn. If they then feel soft, add back in an additional 1/4 turn of preload. This is an iterative process.

3.      Rebound Damping

What is it?
Rebound damping controls (slows) the speed at which the spring seeks its static position from a compressed position. Rebound is the intersection between ride and handling. Too little rebound and the forks will wallow like a 1970’s Cadillac. Too much rebound and the forks will feel darty/twitchy.

How is it adjusted?
On forks using GVE rebound is adjusted via the weight of the fork oil. The baseline is 15wt with an air gap of 140mm. Going to a higher viscosity oil increases rebound (slows the rate at which the spring seeks its static position) and a lower viscosity decreases the rate at which the springs seek its static position. An important note on fork oils – there is little commonality between manufacturers of fork oil. So if you are going to go from 15wt oil to 10wt, choose the same manufacturer otherwise you may go from 15wt to 15wt…or 5wt – there’s no way to know.

How do I know when it’s right?
When the forks provide a comfortable and controlled ride, and the handling feels linear and natural, the rebound damping is correct.

4.      Oil Height

What is it?
The amount of oil in the fork. You are actually measuring the AIR GAP. It is measured from the top of the slider tube to the top of the oil with the fork compressed, GVE in place and the spring out. The baseline air gap is 140mm.

How is it adjusted?
This one is easy…remove or add oil as needed. It is usually added/removed in 10mm increments for tuning and then as required for fine tuning. For the forks used on the CS-1 Café, each 8.55ml (0.289oz) of oil added or removed equates to a 10mm change in oil height (the forks have an ID of 33mm and solving for this equation gives us the volume of fluid: Volume = Pi x R^2 x Length).

To change the oil height just remove a fork cap (one at a time - if you remove both fork caps your bike will sag to its stops and you’ll probably make quite a mess) and insert a hose into the forks and attach it to a syringe to extract or add a measured amount of oil.

How do I know when it’s right?
If the final 1/3 of travel is too soft and bottoms, add oil in 10cc increments. Do the opposite if you can’t use 85-90% of all fork travel.

5.      Stroke

What is it?
It’s the amount of available fork travel used. It’s determined by the combined effect of spring selection, preload, damping and oil height. As a general rule of thumb, the first 1/3 of fork travel is controlled by the spring and is used mostly for race sag. The next 1/3 of travel is controlled by compression valving via the GVE. The final 1/3 of travel is affected by oil height (air chamber). Ideally you want to use 85-90% of available fork travel; 60-65% for normal riding and 85-90% under heavy compression (like an emergency stop).

How is it adjusted?
Since it’s the combined effect of everything…it’s everything noted above. With that said, try to only change one element at a time. Fork tuning can be confusing at times. If you change too many things at a time, you have no way of knowing what gave you the desired (or undesired) effect and how to minimize or maximize the change.

How do I know when it’s right?
You don’t know…until you make a change. If you make changes and like the results…you’re not done. If your changes take you further from where you want to be…then you’re done. Always remember. The forks and shocks work as a system. A change at one end of the bike will likely result in a change at the other end.
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A life-time student of motorcycling.
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Gary_in_NJ
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Re: Fork Improvements for RYCA Café Conversions
Reply #76 - 11/06/16 at 18:48:12
 
Getting the Rear Right

I mentioned the shocks above in the tuning guide but didn’t provide any guidance because this “how-to” started life as “fork-centric” and I hadn’t found a solution that I liked for my bike. Having done the necessary research for my bike I thought I’d share the knowledge.

As mentioned above, the forks and shocks are a system and need to work in harmony. For example, let’s say you follow every bit of advice given above and get your forks perfectly in the sweet-spot (good for you). If your shocks are too soft or under-dampened your forks will be underloaded and won’t be able to move through their full stroke. Further, soft shocks effectively increase steering rake, making the steering light and vague.

If your shocks are too stiff you will overburden the forks, causing you to dial-in an overcompensating amount of rebound during tuning. Remember, rebound is the intersection between ride and handling. Too much rebound and the forks will feel darty/twitchy.

But most importantly, shocks define how comfortable the bike will ride. So it’s important for performance and comfort to get the shocks right.

What makes one shock better then another? Like the forks, the primary function of the shock is to 1) support the sprung weight of the bike and rider and 2) provide damping to control the speed of movement throughout the stroke of the shaft. Without damping a spring will seek its static position as quickly as possible, overshooting its static position due to inertia. Also, just like the forks, a shock uses oil and air to create compression and rebound  damping. As the shock moves it creates heat which is absorbed into the oil. When the oil gets hot it foams within the chamber and if the oil gets too hot it causes cavitation (slipping) within the chamber – impacting the ability of the shock to provide predictable (or meaningful) damping. The faster that heat can be absorbed and dissipated, the better the shock can perform its primary function of providing predictable damping. As a rule: the bigger the oil chamber the more effective the heat management of the shock. Also, better shocks tend to have external adjustments for compression and rebound damping. This allows the rider/operator to dial-in (fine tune) the shock without having to remove the shock and make internal damping adjustments via the valving stack.

Let’s review the various types of shocks that are “reasonably” available for bikes like ours. Shocks come in three basic styles; Twin-Tube, Gas-Emulsion and Reservoir (piggyback reservoir & remote reservoir).

Twin-Tube shocks are the type most typically seen on budget bikes. They are self-contained with an inner oil chamber and an outer air chamber (hence, the twin tubes). The damping rod (shaft) is connected to a piston that moves through the oil, creating damping. The vast majority of these shocks are typically low performance, non-rebuildable, provide fixed damping and only adjustable for spring preload (usually just 5 positions for spring preload). Advantages – usually cheap ($50 to $200 pair). Disadvantages – limited adjustability, fixed dampening, small oil chamber and non-rebuildable, so when the damping no longer meets your needs you throw them away. Best use: play/monkey bikes, around town bikes.

Emulsion shocks (sometimes called gas-pressurized) are next on the shock hierarchy and offer a significant improvement over twin-tube shocks. Emulsion shocks are single tube shock that have a self-contained reservoir that separates the oil and air. Because of this they are not quite full of oil because they require an air space to deal with the displacement of the shock shaft. The better emulsion shocks use nitrogen instead of air and therefore are called “gas shocks”. Nitrogen is desirable over air because it doesn’t expand/contract with temperature changes like air. This is a desirable attribute since the shocks have a small gas/air chamber. The gas is compressed (pressurized gas) to raise the temperature and lower the pressure that cavitation occurs within the chamber. Once cavitation begins, the shock no longer provides meaningful damping. Advantages – not terribly expensive ($200 to $600 pair depending on features), typically rebuildable (including the damping stack/valving so the high-speed compression can be customized for your bike and riding style), typically infinite adjustability within a range for spring preload and on higher spec units adjustability for low-speed compression. Disadvantages – relatively small oil chamber so they don’t manage heat well. Best use: street bikes where the rider enjoys a comfortable ride and doesn’t do much “spirited” riding.

Up next are gas-pressurized reservoir shocks, both piggyback and remote. The difference between these two types of reservoir shocks is the size of the oil chamber and their ability to absorb and dissipate heat. Since the remote reservoir is detached from the shocks, it can more effectively manage heat (on higher-end units the valving is also in the remote). Because of this defining feature these types of shocks are usually considered “high performance”. Otherwise everything mentioned about gas-emulsion shocks applies to this type of shock. Advantages – large oil/gas chamber so they manage heat extremely well, typically rebuildable (including the damping stack/valving so they can be customized for your bike and riding style), typically infinite adjustability within a range for spring preload and on higher spec units adjustability for low-speed compression, high-speed compression and rebound. Disadvantages – expensive ($400 to $1,200 pair depending on features). Best use: track bikes.

The above is generalized but is a good primer and provides a basic knowledge of shocks.

The shocks found on the vast majority of budget bikes are of the twin-tube variety. So it’s no surprise that Suzuki uses twin-tube shocks on the LS650/S40. RYCA also supplies twin-tube shocks in their kit that appear to be the same quality as the OEM shocks. Unfortunately the shocks supplied by RYCA are under dampened (a design limitation) and to compensate for the poor motion control, they are also over sprung – the worst of both worlds. But if we’re being honest, if you’re riding with the RYCA fork solution, you’ll probably never notice the crappy shocks. If you have taken the time and spent the money to improve your front suspension, by now you are probably very unhappy with the shocks.

So if we are going to improve the shocks to work as well as the forks, what do we need/want?

First consideration is shock length. Turns out the RYCA guys got this spec spot-on. The kit shocks are 13” (330mm) eye-to-eye (from the center of the upper mounting hole to the center of the lower mounting hole) and can’t really be much longer. I tried a length of 13-3/8” (340mm) and experienced some chain contact at the front end of the swing arm during braking and bumpy road surfaces. It’s barely noticeable but I went back to 330mm and the contact was gone (335mm is probably a safe length). I wanted to experiment with the longer length to see if a rake of 26-27 degrees would improve the handling, but I found the steering to be a bit light for my liking. I could have made adjustments to the forks to compensate, but with the chain contact it wasn’t worth any of my effort. 13” works perfect.

Another consideration is spring rate. A RYCA conversion is a light bike with most of the weight bias towards the rear end. My bike weighs 330 lbs with fuel (157 front / 173 rear) without me and about 500 lbs with me (222 front / 278 rear). Since we don’t have a link suspension, we want progressively wound or dual-rate springs.

We need shocks with 14mm mounting eyelets.

We need shocks that provide more than 2 inches of travel. The short stroke is a result of cramming everything into one tube (oil, air chamber, valving, piston, rebound spring). This is also another reason why a reservoir shocks are desirable – they inherently provide more stroke.

So with the above information I decided to identify shocks for my café racer with the following criteria:

-      Adjustable length that allowed for lengths in the range of 330 to 340mm.
-      A reservoir type shock for the extra performance and additional stroke/travel.
-      A fully rebuildable shock so the valving can be suited to the attributes of a light-weight café racer.
-      External adjustments for compression and rebound damping would be “nice-to-haves” but not necessary because once the valving is correct, I typically don’t make further adjustments (just like our forks).
-      Here was the hardest one, I didn’t want to spend more than $500 for the pair.

There are many choices for shocks above $500 (closer to $1,000) from Fox (Podium), Ohlins (36P), RaceTech (G3-S), YSS (G-302) and Progressive (970 Series) to name a few. And then there are knock-offs of some of the above shocks that are typically below $100. I didn’t want to spend $700 to $1,200 for the originals and didn’t want to bother with the knock-offs.

There are always questions and skepticism about the quality of the knock-off shocks. In forums these questions usually quickly dissolve into arguments between people who have never used them who claim they are junk to people who own them and say they work. I’ve seen every claim on the junk side including they are made of pot metal and will disintegrate to there are no actual components (valving or piston) inside the shocks. On the surface this could be believable, and in some cases maybe even true. But there are a few knock-off manufacturers that seem to get good reviews form people who actually have used them, namely RFY and TEC.

The RFY and TEC reservoir shocks look a lot like a the Ohlins 36P or HO-142 shock (not a high-end racebike unit with external damping adjustments, but a good streetbike version that is fully rebuilable/adjustable) but they are a fraction the cost. At that price point can they actually be a viable option? On several of the places I was doing research (CB350 and Triumph forums) there was a gentlemen by the name of Chris that actually had experience rebuilding shocks and decided to do a tear-down and conduct a comparison of RFY shocks to Ohlin shocks. His findings were shocking (get it?). He found that the RFY copies are quite faithful to the originals. Moreover, he felt that the only thing that would keep him from recommending these shocks as an inexpensive streetbike shock was its set-up. Over time he developed a good working understanding of the RFY and TEC shocks and began to offer a rebuild service, as well as a custom build-to-order service of these shocks. It was the custom build-to-order service that caught my attention because if I decided to try this inexpensive alternative I knew they wouldn’t work on my bike out of the box. Further, I also do not possess the proper specialized tools to conduct a proper rebuild of a pair of shocks. Finding someone that could get the shocks right the first time took the risk out of the equation. So I provided my personal needs and my bike needs to Chris, and for a little over $200 I had shocks that worked out of the box for my bike.

These custom/rebuilt RFY shocks checked all of my boxes:

-      Adjustable length that allowed for lengths in the range of 330 to 340mm.
-      A gas-pressurized reservoir type shock for the extra performance and additional stroke/travel of 2.75”, an improvement of ¾ inch.
-      A fully rebuildable shock so the valving has been built to the attributes of my café racer.
-      14mm top mount and eyelets.

I hate to sound like a fanboy, but the shocks completely changed my enjoyment of my bike. Simply put, these shocks work. My rear suspension now matches the performance and comfort of my forks. The suspension is finally in balance.
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« Last Edit: 12/15/16 at 06:53:18 by Gary_in_NJ »  

A life-time student of motorcycling.
LS650 Cafe, DRZ400SM, FZ6N, SV650S, CB900C, Ducati ST2, CB550F-SS
My LS650=> http://suzukisavage.com/yabb2.2/Attachments/Left.JPG
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Gary_in_NJ
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Re: Fork Improvements for RYCA Café Conversions
Reply #77 - 11/06/16 at 18:48:56
 
(continued from above)

If you have the tools (spring compression too, spring dyno, nitrogen) to rebuild and valve the shocks yourself these shocks are well worth your time, money and effort. They are well suited to the LS650/S40 platform. If you know a good reliable suspension shop, I wouldn’t hesitate to have them rebuild a pair of RFY for your needs. This may be an iterative process with your shop. If you want to order a pair of shocks and be able to install them when you receive them, contact Chris at CL Mototech at the website below. There shouldn’t be much (or enough to matter) difference from bike to bike, so replicating my shocks will be straight forward. I expect Chris will need to know the rider weight which may impact spring rate and valving.

http://chrislivengood.net/wp/product/fully-built-shock-package/

Article of RFY Type 1 teardown

http://chrislivengood.net/wp/rfy-shocks-overview/

Click through Chris website for a lot of good info.
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Re: Fork Improvements for RYCA Café Conversions
Reply #78 - 11/07/16 at 17:41:20
 
Thanks for the in-depth write up, Gary!
When you refer to 2"  of travel or 2 3/4" of travel, are you referring to the actual amount the shock compresses, or to wheel travel?
The shocks are set inboard of the rear axle, so 2" of shock movement would translate into more than 2" of wheel travel.
One of the things that always made me crazy about Harleys is that a lot of them have about an inch of shock travel and 2" of rear wheel travel  Huh
thanks,
-Armen
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Re: Fork Improvements for RYCA Café Conversions
Reply #79 - 11/07/16 at 17:50:17
 
The travel figures are at the shock, not suspension travel.
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Re: Fork Improvements for RYCA Café Conversions
Reply #80 - 11/08/16 at 03:07:41
 
Thanks Gary.
Have you calculated rear wheel travel with the new shocks?
I'm ordering a set this week.
Thanks for the well written article and the lead!
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Gary_in_NJ
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Re: Fork Improvements for RYCA Café Conversions
Reply #81 - 11/08/16 at 04:55:04
 
Armen wrote on 11/08/16 at 03:07:41:
Have you calculated rear wheel travel with the new shocks?


I haven't but I've been thinking about it. I'll talk with one of our mechanical engineering during lunch to understand the kinematics.

Armen wrote on 11/08/16 at 03:07:41:
I'm ordering a set this week.


You're gonna love 'em.
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Re: Fork Improvements for RYCA Café Conversions
Reply #82 - 11/08/16 at 05:04:46
 
When I get mine, I'll yank the springs, mount them, and measure the wheel travel.
All that thinking makes my brain hurt Wink

Are you running an 18" or 19" front wheel?
Still have the 19" on mine. Prob end up with an 18"
thanks
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Re: Fork Improvements for RYCA Café Conversions
Reply #83 - 11/08/16 at 06:05:28
 
I went with the 18" front. I wanted to improve the steering feel and quickness and the 18" front improves the rake. The 18" front also has a lot less gyroscopic effect, making for lighter/faster steering.
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Re: Fork Improvements for RYCA Café Conversions
Reply #84 - 11/08/16 at 06:26:58
 
Yup. My thinking as well. For now, I'm just trying to get the bike on the road. The rear wheel ended up costing about $600 with all the bells and whistles, so I have to pace myself a bit.
The 18" will also improve braking a tiny amount.
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Re: Fork Improvements for RYCA Café Conversions
Reply #85 - 11/08/16 at 14:48:28
 
And....if I can be a "buttinski".....I am running a 100/80-18 and/or a 90/90-18 front tire, and they provide all the tire that this relatively lightweight bike needs.  The 100/90-19 and 100/90-18 tires are far bigger and heavier than these smaller tires.
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Re: Fork Improvements for RYCA Café Conversions
Reply #86 - 11/08/16 at 15:11:09
 
Dave,
Yup, got that. I ride a lot of customer bikes with 'full figured' front tires, and try to explain to the owners that the bike handles worse with wider tires.
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Re: Fork & Shock Improvements for Café Convers
Reply #87 - 11/12/16 at 19:12:46
 
Armen,

Turns out your question about how does shock stroke translate into suspension travel is a great question. Your method was enlightening too. It also turns out that RYCA was spot on correct in choosing an eye-to-eye (E2E) of 13 inches.

Since my bike is apart for paint I had an opportunity to test various shock lengths to see how it affects suspension travel and chain contact at the leading edge of the swing arm. Having the bike on a table/stand made this test very easy. Here is the test setup:

-      Front wheel in a fork and the bars strapped to the table simulating a race sag condition of 35mm compressed
-      Hydraulic jack at the base of engine case
-      Shocks removed
-      Tie-down strap attached between the upper and lower shock mounts on right side of the bike
-      Kenda Cruiser K671 130/70-18 Rear Tire
-      Rear tire pressure at 32 pounds
-      1-1/2” of chain slack

With the above setup I was able to raise/lower the bike to adjust the distance between the upper and lower shock mount. This enabled me to see at what shock length the chain made contact with the swingarm and by using a tie-down between the shock mounts, raise the rear tire to see what suspension travel is at different shock lengths both fully extended and fully compressed.

Let’s look at the Goldilocks length of 13” E2E. The RFY Model 1 shock has a stroke of 2.75”, resulting in a compressed length of 10.25”. Fully compressed, the chain is about as tight as you’d want it because at a compress length of 10.125 you can no longer raise the rear wheel because of chain tension. The tire is difficult to turn at 10.125”, so a compressed length of 10.25 works out well.

Also, at an E2E distance of 12.75” with the chain tight, the chain makes contact with the swing arm, just barely.

At a E2E length of 13” with a fully compressed stroke of 10.25 inches there is 4.25” of suspension travel. This is an important figure to know for setting sag (static and race). With an extended shock at 13”, the top of the shock mount bolt is 25.75” from the ground. Allowing for about 10mm of static sag (the weight of the bike only) and the top of the shock mount at 25.375” from the ground, the E2E distance is 12.625” and the chain is clear of the swing arm. I simulated a shock with an E2E of 13.125 and at this length (4.5” travel, 26” top of the mount) the sag setting is 25.625” at the top of the mount resulting in an E2E distance of 12.75” and the chain making contact with the swingarm.

For several reasons 13” E2E is the maximum length (with the RFY Model 1 shock with 2.75” stroke) you can use. Just 1/8” longer and the chain makes contact with the swing arm and the chain is at maximum stretch.
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« Last Edit: 12/15/16 at 07:00:02 by Gary_in_NJ »  

A life-time student of motorcycling.
LS650 Cafe, DRZ400SM, FZ6N, SV650S, CB900C, Ducati ST2, CB550F-SS
My LS650=> http://suzukisavage.com/yabb2.2/Attachments/Left.JPG
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Re: Fork & Shock Improvements for Café Conversions
Reply #88 - 11/13/16 at 04:50:15
 
Hey Gary,
Thanks so much for taking the time to do all that work, document it, and post it.
I'm ordering a set of shocks this week. Was going to last week, but ended up replacing my furnace, so I'm in a bit of sticker shock Huh
I'm running a belt on mine. With the 2" travel RYCA shocks, the belt goes from crazy loose to pretty tight during it's travel. Wondering if the additional .75" of shock travel will make the belt tension even crazier.
I'll dummy it all up when I get the shock.
Worst case scenario, I'll make spacers to go between the shock bumpers and the top shock mount, and kill a bit of travel to reduce the range of belt slack. And still have a sexier shock in terms of damping.
If my math is correct, the wheel moves about 1.545" for every 1" the shock moves. Reducing the shock travel by .250" will still give 3.86" of wheel travel, which is prob enough for me. And more than the 3.09" afforded by the RYCA shock.
More stuff to do in my abundant spare time...
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Gary_in_NJ
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LS650 Cafe Racer

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Amongst the Twisty Roads
Re: Fork & Shock Improvements for Café Convers
Reply #89 - 11/17/16 at 19:27:39
 
With my bike in a stand I decided to take some rake and trail measurements. My table stand is exactly level no no adjustments were required. The tires are inflated at 32 front and 32 rear. I performed the test with the suspension extended and at its race sag setting (35mm front and 30mm rear). Not surprisingly the rake figure was about the same in both configurations.

Rake is at 28 degrees and trail is 3.5 inches. I expected the rake to be in the 27 degree range because that was the result I had with the prior shocks. But those shocks were much stiffer - the sag setting of the RFY shocks is more then 1/2 of the full travel setting for the RYCA shocks. The the trail number surprised me. I don't know why, but I expected this figure and to be in the 4.5 to 4.75 range.

In any event 28 degrees rake and 3.5 inches of trail explain the light steering and flickable nature of the bike.
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« Last Edit: 11/18/16 at 05:07:32 by Gary_in_NJ »  

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