SuzukiSavage.com - Gun Owner Gets Fined $1000

Pine

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Re: Gun Owner Gets Fined $1000
Reply #15 - 05/30/13 at 07:10:22

srinath wrote on 05/28/13 at 12:09:37:

That's because you have bolded the wrong part.

This part -

DC and NYC have a huge gun problem with guns trafficked from SC

Nearly all the guns in the hands of criminals in DC or NYC is bought legit from GA or SC or other states without any gun laws and trafficked to NYC or DC.

Gun registration can be used to stop and prosecute that trafficking, but it needs to be done nationwide.

SC and MS and other states dont per say have a gun problem, but they are richly contributing to the NYC and DC criminals ability to shoot a few rounds in a drive by, get rid of the gun, get the next gun and repeat.

Yea yea yea I've heard all the arguments about law abiding citizens and guns and what not ... however there is no way to keep it out of the hands of criminals unless you account for every gun out there. A guy may turn into a criminal, say he threatens or beats up someone ... you dont know he has guns. He may go to court, go to jail etc, and come back out in a few months and have the guns to commit a bigger assault. Gun registration is to keep guns out of the hands of criminals.

Your right to own a gun is predicated upon you not being a criminal ? right ? If that's not your point of view, never mind registration, you might as well hand out guns to any criminal who wants one. SC does.

Anyway if you think that being a convicted criminal should prevent a person from owning a gun - how do you stop the criminal who starts out gets arrested and upon release he has guns cos he had em from before ?

Guns all by themselves dont do squat. The problem is that they are in the hands of criminals. They commit crimes and get rid of the gun, and get the next gun ... Or they ciommit crimes, go to jail, come back and still have the guns they used to. That would be stopped by gun registration. Its like a breathalyser in your car for a DUI.

Cool.
Srinath.

I like this... the debate (without ruffling feathers).

So Looking at this post lets look at things:

SC and MS and other states dont per say have a gun problem, We seem to agree on this point. The question then is why NYC has a gun problem and MS does not, when clearly there are just as many guns in MS as in NYC? Most would point to poverty.. except that MS is the poorest state in the nation and has been since the civil war. So its not the guns, and its not poverty... what is it? What ever IT is .. that should be the problem we go after.

Gun registration can be used to stop and prosecute that trafficking, but it needs to be done nationwide.
The problem that many people myself included) with line of reasoning is that it makes a criminal out of everyone (that owns a gun) immediately. Everyone is criminal... but now we can find the gun used in a criminal action. Many people are very opposed to being "made" a criminal when in fact they did nothing wrong. And story speaks to just this issue. The "hero" in the story was a "criminal" all along as he had not registered his gun. He never hurt anyone... he didn't actively use his gun to commit any crimes.. but HE IS A CRIMINAL.

Your right to own a gun is predicated upon you not being a criminal ? right ?
Yes..... BUT: In the USA a person is considered INNOCENT until proven guilty. Registration makes you guilty immediately (a criminal) until you act to become no longer guilty for a time. Registration is predicated on making everyone a criminal first, then conceding innocence later.

Anyway if you think that being a convicted criminal should prevent a person from owning a gun - how do you stop the criminal who starts out gets arrested and upon release he has guns cos he had em from before ?
Hang them. Pretty much stops them from ever hurting anyone again. And his partners get the message real quick too.

Sri - I really do understand your logic, and I completely appreciate that your attempting to come up with solutions that work both ways-keep guns from criminals and yet let others have their guns. I hope that you can use what I wrote to maybe refine your ideas. The USA could use people to look at the issue and find a logical/workable solution. I want a solution, I want criminals to be stopped... just not at the cost of me being made into a criminal.

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srinath

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Re: Gun Owner Gets Fined $1000
Reply #16 - 05/30/13 at 07:16:50

12Bravo wrote on 05/30/13 at 06:26:15:

Criminals are called 'criminals' for a reason: they do NOT follow any laws. More laws will not stop criminals. How well did Prohibition work or the War on Drugs? Both have not worked and have only cost tax payers money. A criminal will get what he/she wants no matter what laws are on the books. More laws won't solve crime problems

How do you know any of these have not worked ? The war on drugs have been on for 20 or more years. How would you know what the drug problem will have been without it.
Of course there is a supply side war as well as a demand side war. The demand side IMHO is more effective than supply side but we have been fighting both. You dont know what it will have been. There was a crack epidemic in the 80's and 90's. We dont have that now. There was a meth epidemic later in the 90's, again - not any more.

It has to be compared to the case where it would have been if there had not been a "war on it"

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srinath

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Re: Gun Owner Gets Fined $1000
Reply #17 - 05/30/13 at 07:24:13

Pine wrote on 05/30/13 at 07:10:22:

srinath wrote on 05/28/13 at 12:09:37:

That's because you have bolded the wrong part.

This part -

DC and NYC have a huge gun problem with guns trafficked from SC

Nearly all the guns in the hands of criminals in DC or NYC is bought legit from GA or SC or other states without any gun laws and trafficked to NYC or DC.

Gun registration can be used to stop and prosecute that trafficking, but it needs to be done nationwide.

SC and MS and other states dont per say have a gun problem, but they are richly contributing to the NYC and DC criminals ability to shoot a few rounds in a drive by, get rid of the gun, get the next gun and repeat.

Yea yea yea I've heard all the arguments about law abiding citizens and guns and what not ... however there is no way to keep it out of the hands of criminals unless you account for every gun out there. A guy may turn into a criminal, say he threatens or beats up someone ... you dont know he has guns. He may go to court, go to jail etc, and come back out in a few months and have the guns to commit a bigger assault. Gun registration is to keep guns out of the hands of criminals.

Your right to own a gun is predicated upon you not being a criminal ? right ? If that's not your point of view, never mind registration, you might as well hand out guns to any criminal who wants one. SC does.

Anyway if you think that being a convicted criminal should prevent a person from owning a gun - how do you stop the criminal who starts out gets arrested and upon release he has guns cos he had em from before ?

Guns all by themselves dont do squat. The problem is that they are in the hands of criminals. They commit crimes and get rid of the gun, and get the next gun ... Or they ciommit crimes, go to jail, come back and still have the guns they used to. That would be stopped by gun registration. Its like a breathalyser in your car for a DUI.

Cool.
Srinath.

I like this... the debate (without ruffling feathers).

So Looking at this post lets look at things:

SC and MS and other states dont per say have a gun problem, We seem to agree on this point. The question then is why NYC has a gun problem and MS does not, when clearly there are just as many guns in MS as in NYC? Most would point to poverty.. except that MS is the poorest state in the nation and has been since the civil war. So its not the guns, and its not poverty... what is it? What ever IT is .. that should be the problem we go after.

Gun registration can be used to stop and prosecute that trafficking, but it needs to be done nationwide.
The problem that many people myself included) with line of reasoning is that it makes a criminal out of everyone (that owns a gun) immediately. Everyone is criminal... but now we can find the gun used in a criminal action. Many people are very opposed to being "made" a criminal when in fact they did nothing wrong. And story speaks to just this issue. The "hero" in the story was a "criminal" all along as he had not registered his gun. He never hurt anyone... he didn't actively use his gun to commit any crimes.. but HE IS A CRIMINAL.

Your right to own a gun is predicated upon you not being a criminal ? right ?
Yes..... BUT: In the USA a person is considered INNOCENT until proven guilty. Registration makes you guilty immediately (a criminal) until you act to become no longer guilty for a time. Registration is predicated on making everyone a criminal first, then conceding innocence later.

Anyway if you think that being a convicted criminal should prevent a person from owning a gun - how do you stop the criminal who starts out gets arrested and upon release he has guns cos he had em from before ?
Hang them. Pretty much stops them from ever hurting anyone again. And his partners get the message real quick too.

Sri - I really do understand your logic, and I completely appreciate that your attempting to come up with solutions that work both ways-keep guns from criminals and yet let others have their guns. I hope that you can use what I wrote to maybe refine your ideas. The USA could use people to look at the issue and find a logical/workable solution. I want a solution, I want criminals to be stopped... just not at the cost of me being made into a criminal.

All these points with circular logic.

NYC has a problem. People ... too many people. You want to kick Em all out ?

Gun crime will be put to a quick and peaceful end once all the criminals know the gun they shoot will point back to them. That way you can keep you gun and kill all the beer cans you want.

Your logic is like this "We need to keep these guns to defend ourselves against the govt that is comming to take these guns".

My point is not all just gun registration. We need to get the serial number, the owner and the rifling into 1 database. That will entirely prevent the loose and free guns being used in crime.

We need to implement all the laws on the books and get it all current as well as put this new information in. Criminals love being untraceable. We make it traceable and they will drop guns as their weapon of choice.

Cool.
Srinath.

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45acp Full Member Offline SuzukiSavage.com Rocks! Posts: 153 on a shooting range in OK. Gender:	Re: Gun Owner Gets Fined $1000 Reply #18 - 05/30/13 at 07:42:28 they will still be ciminals with or without guns. taking away guns doesnt take away criminals. your war against guns is like me saying im mad at mcdognalds for making me fat, while im sitting in taco hell eating the 5 buck box. it just doesnt pan out.
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Pine

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Re: Gun Owner Gets Fined $1000
Reply #19 - 05/30/13 at 08:16:17

srinath wrote on 05/30/13 at 07:24:13:

Pine wrote on 05/30/13 at 07:10:22:

srinath wrote on 05/28/13 at 12:09:37:

That's because you have bolded the wrong part.

This part -
.
.
.
.
.
Cool.
Srinath.

I like this... the debate (without ruffling feathers).
.
.
.
.
.

All these points with circular logic.

NYC has a problem. People ... too many people. You want to kick Em all out ?

Gun crime will be put to a quick and peaceful end once all the criminals know the gun they shoot will point back to them. That way you can keep you gun and kill all the beer cans you want.

Your logic is like this "We need to keep these guns to defend ourselves against the govt that is comming to take these guns".

My point is not all just gun registration. We need to get the serial number, the owner and the rifling into 1 database. That will entirely prevent the loose and free guns being used in crime.

We need to implement all the laws on the books and get it all current as well as put this new information in. Criminals love being untraceable. We make it traceable and they will drop guns as their weapon of choice.

Cool.
Srinath.

ah Sri... I spent a lot of time thinking that all up! at least give me something... hhahaha

you know though.. hmmm "You want to kick Em all out ?"

Wonder how that might work. I tell you one thing.. it WOULD be effective. Maybe get rid of rent control. Either you can afford to live there or leave. Maybe raise taxes on apt buildings. So instead of making it easy to stay.. make it easy to go. There are whole ghost towns in mid-America. Just don't send them down here! Grin

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srinath

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Re: Gun Owner Gets Fined $1000
Reply #20 - 05/30/13 at 08:23:45

45acp wrote on 05/30/13 at 07:42:28:

they will still be ciminals with or without guns. taking away guns doesnt take away criminals. your war against guns is like me saying im mad at mcdognalds for making me fat, while im sitting in taco hell eating the 5 buck box. it just doesnt pan out.

Yea and criminals without guns either get out gunned, or are much slower in committing their crimes or start not committing crime - all of which are great options.

Guns are bigger problems in some locations than others. Sadly since roads work so very well, we need to clamp down all over. Piece meal wont work unless you have a border @ each county/state etc.

Yea getting rid of rent control in NYC will get some of the bottom income, then the rich people can clean their own toilets ...

NYC could use to lose 5million people. Sadly it also is greener to cram more into a smaller space. BTW I had friends back in the 90's who used to never heat their apartment. They were basically getting their neighbors heat ... cant beat free heat and rent control. And once we start eating insects, there is an endless food source, cos they can live off the cockroaches. And they currently are, they just dont know it.

Cool.
Srinath.

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justin_o_guy2 Serious Thumper Offline What happened? Posts: 55279 East Texas, 1/2 dallas/la.	Re: Gun Owner Gets Fined $1000 Reply #21 - 05/30/13 at 08:35:18 The left has driven social policy for decades.. look where we are. The only places things improve are where the left gets rejected,
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12Bravo

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Re: Gun Owner Gets Fined $1000
Reply #22 - 05/30/13 at 08:52:22

srinath wrote on 05/30/13 at 07:16:50:

12Bravo wrote on 05/30/13 at 06:26:15:

Criminals are called 'criminals' for a reason: they do NOT follow any laws. More laws will not stop criminals. How well did Prohibition work or the War on Drugs? Both have not worked and have only cost tax payers money. A criminal will get what he/she wants no matter what laws are on the books. More laws won't solve crime problems

How do you know any of these have not worked ? The war on drugs have been on for 20 or more years. How would you know what the drug problem will have been without it.
Of course there is a supply side war as well as a demand side war. The demand side IMHO is more effective than supply side but we have been fighting both. You dont know what it will have been. There was a crack epidemic in the 80's and 90's. We dont have that now. There was a meth epidemic later in the 90's, again - not any more.

It has to be compared to the case where it would have been if there had not been a "war on it"

Cool.
Srinath.

Come to Missouri and you will see that there STILL is a severe meth problem. And it was proven that Prohibition did NOT work.

Again, why blame the tool for what the idiot holding it did!

I guess that we better ban automobiles because they cause drunk driving, ban forks because they cause obesity, ban texting because it causes bad grammar, etc...........

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justin_o_guy2 Serious Thumper Offline What happened? Posts: 55279 East Texas, 1/2 dallas/la.	Re: Gun Owner Gets Fined $1000 Reply #23 - 05/30/13 at 09:06:51 Logic gets trumped by that never ending search for the perpetual "Warm Fuzzy",, theyre addicted,,
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srinath

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Re: Gun Owner Gets Fined $1000
Reply #24 - 05/30/13 at 09:55:10

justin_o_guy2 wrote on 05/30/13 at 08:35:18:

The left has driven social policy for decades.. look where we are.

The only places things improve are where the left gets rejected,

That must be why SC is @ the top for everything good ... and since you probably dont know ... they are @ the bottom for all the good and @ the top for all the bad.

Its a 100+ years of republican run state. Welfare queen and some of the last in education and everything else.
I know first hand, they are next door, I get all their local news being under 10 miles from their powerful radio stations.
When Nikki Haley came up with a plan to cut welfare from 270 to 216 and implemented it, one of the radio stations pretty much summed it up as such - Nikki Haley cuts welfare received by SC by 20%. The people of New Jersey thank her.

Left leaning states have long out produced and out paid into the tax and welfare system the right leaning states have been free loading on.
8 of the top 10 states in terms of dollars out flow to inflow (get more than they pay in) 8 of the top 10 are republican states and some have been red for centuries. The other 2 are Maryland and VA where the federal govt paper pushers set up shop.

We are not blaming the tool, we are using that "tool" to find the idiot holding it, and we do that by knowing all the tools and what marks they leave.

We have not banned automobiles but we have registered them, and we have installed breathalisers in the cars of offenders. We also have spell checks in text editors, and we are putting up labels on food. BTW forks - who eats burger with a fork ... forks have very little to do with obesity, you can blame a burger wrapper. But we have calories listed. You ahve to eat ... oh wait, its not in the constitution, guess we dont then.

Missouri's meth problem - would ahve been worse without any enforcement. Prohibition was 1/2 assed and done a few years. If it should work, we need to ahve stuck with it for longer. Few years of anything and state wise and city wise anything wont work.

Cool.
Srinath.

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Paraquat

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Re: Gun Owner Gets Fined $1000
Reply #25 - 05/30/13 at 11:14:57

srinath wrote on 05/30/13 at 09:55:10:

justin_o_guy2 wrote on 05/30/13 at 08:35:18:

The left has driven social policy for decades.. look where we are.

The only places things improve are where the left gets rejected,

That must be why SC is @ the top for everything good ... and since you probably dont know ... they are @ the bottom for all the good and @ the top for all the bad.

Its a 100+ years of republican run state. Welfare queen and some of the last in education and everything else.
I know first hand, they are next door, I get all their local news being under 10 miles from their powerful radio stations.
When Nikki Haley came up with a plan to cut welfare from 270 to 216 and implemented it, one of the radio stations pretty much summed it up as such - Nikki Haley cuts welfare received by SC by 20%. The people of New Jersey thank her.

Left leaning states have long out produced and out paid into the tax and welfare system the right leaning states have been free loading on.
8 of the top 10 states in terms of dollars out flow to inflow (get more than they pay in) 8 of the top 10 are republican states and some have been red for centuries. The other 2 are Maryland and VA where the federal govt paper pushers set up shop.

We are not blaming the tool, we are using that "tool" to find the idiot holding it, and we do that by knowing all the tools and what marks they leave.

We have not banned automobiles but we have registered them, and we have installed breathalisers in the cars of offenders. We also have spell checks in text editors, and we are putting up labels on food. BTW forks - who eats burger with a fork ... forks have very little to do with obesity, you can blame a burger wrapper. But we have calories listed. You ahve to eat ... oh wait, its not in the constitution, guess we dont then.

Missouri's meth problem - would ahve been worse without any enforcement. Prohibition was 1/2 assed and done a few years. If it should work, we need to ahve stuck with it for longer. Few years of anything and state wise and city wise anything wont work.

Cool.
Srinath.

You're not putting a breathalizer in my car because I have not yet committed a crime with it.
You don't penalize innocents before they commit crimes. You don't penalize innocents when a certain individual commits a crime.
Calories aren't listed everywhere and a spell check does nothing because you wrote "hvae" twice.
It doesn't matter anyway because it's post mortem given that you have already pressed "Post".

--Steve

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srinath

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Re: Gun Owner Gets Fined $1000
Reply #26 - 05/30/13 at 11:29:04

Paraquat wrote on 05/30/13 at 11:14:57:

You're not putting a breathalizer in my car because I have not yet committed a crime with it.
You don't penalize innocents before they commit crimes. You don't penalize innocents when a certain individual commits a crime.
Calories aren't listed everywhere and a spell check does nothing because you wrote "hvae" twice.
It doesn't matter anyway because it's post mortem given that you have already pressed "Post".

--Steve

But your car is registered and insured isn't it. The breathalyser is the equivalent of taking away your gun after you have committed a crime. Unless you want criminals to own guns ...
Calories are there in all fast foods, mainly because they have been nailed for causing obesity.
You write "hvae" my spell check pops up right there.
Registering a car and registering a gun are the same thing. That way when you commit a DUI they know what car to slap the breathalyser onto. They dont know that with guns unless you register.

Seriously if we had rifling marks, and owner and serial number on most guns, it will nearly eliminate gun trafficking as well as those random walk into a convenience store shoot up the clerk and take the $. You might as well drop your business card on the desk. That information gets around that we got all this data, you know what will happen ... criminals will stop using guns. Its almost what they are doing in India. They are creating a full on biometric index of everyone. Over 1 billion people, and there is a drive to get everyone an ssn, and get all biometrics on file. We do that for a gun. It will almost in a year or 2 eliminate gun criminals. Remember I said "Gun criminals" ... it may increase knife criminals and do nothing for "gun psycho's". Gun criminals wont be able to use the gun. They will not get away if they do.

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Srinath.

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srinath

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Re: Gun Owner Gets Fined $1000
Reply #27 - 05/30/13 at 11:57:59

And a very big and important point that the NRA and all the gun lovers like to ignore -

Meth, fast food, spelling typo's, and everything else usually kill/hurt/stupidify the user of said product.

Guns kill/hurt/maim other people and not the user of said product.

Cars may be used to hurt strangers, but usually you wont find enough people on the street except maybe in NYC to mow enough people down and kill them.

The fact that in a gun debate all the rest of this pops up implies gun owners dont have a real need to engage in a meaningful comparison.

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Pine

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Re: Gun Owner Gets Fined $1000
Reply #28 - 05/30/13 at 13:04:36

srinath wrote on 05/30/13 at 11:29:04:

Paraquat wrote on 05/30/13 at 11:14:57:

You're not putting a breathalizer in my car because I have not yet committed a crime with it.
You don't penalize innocents before they commit crimes. You don't penalize innocents when a certain individual commits a crime.
Calories aren't listed everywhere and a spell check does nothing because you wrote "hvae" twice.
It doesn't matter anyway because it's post mortem given that you have already pressed "Post".

--Steve

But your car is registered and insured isn't it. The breathalyser is the equivalent of taking away your gun after you have committed a crime. Unless you want criminals to own guns ...
Calories are there in all fast foods, mainly because they have been nailed for causing obesity.
You write "hvae" my spell check pops up right there.
Registering a car and registering a gun are the same thing. That way when you commit a DUI they know what car to slap the breathalyser onto. They dont know that with guns unless you register.

Seriously if we had rifling marks, and owner and serial number on most guns, it will nearly eliminate gun trafficking as well as those random walk into a convenience store shoot up the clerk and take the $. You might as well drop your business card on the desk. That information gets around that we got all this data, you know what will happen ... criminals will stop using guns. Its almost what they are doing in India. They are creating a full on biometric index of everyone. Over 1 billion people, and there is a drive to get everyone an ssn, and get all biometrics on file. We do that for a gun. It will almost in a year or 2 eliminate gun criminals. Remember I said "Gun criminals" ... it may increase knife criminals and do nothing for "gun psycho's". Gun criminals wont be able to use the gun. They will not get away if they do.

Cool.
Srinath.

Now Sri... I have been letting all the others have their turn.. but you said something here that is VERY incorrect:
Registering a car and registering a gun are the same thing.

No its not.. not even close. Look it up. Driving a car is a privilege. You have no "rights" to driving a car. Owing a gun is RIGHT as specified in the constitution. Thus my whole post above... Registration assumes one cannot have access until the permission is given. Ie you are a criminal until to comply. This works well for privilege.

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Re: Gun Owner Gets Fined $1000
Reply #29 - 05/30/13 at 13:34:04

Pine wrote on 05/30/13 at 13:04:36:

Now Sri... I have been letting all the others have their turn.. but you said something here that is VERY incorrect:
Registering a car and registering a gun are the same thing.

No its not.. not even close. Look it up. Driving a car is a privilege. You have no "rights" to driving a car. Owing a gun is RIGHT as specified in the constitution. Thus my whole post above... Registration assumes one cannot have access until the permission is given. Ie you are a criminal until to comply. This works well for privilege.

The case being made for in car breathalysers in lieu of licence being revoked is that the requirement to drive also is constitutuional - Its covered under "Pursuit of happiness". When your livelihood depends on driving, you have to commit a lot more than 1 DUI to lose it.

Registration in the case of guns obviously is to keep a trail on guns being sold and traded. As in -
You may own a gun used only for good, you register it, you sell it to trafficker and record it - then trafficker sells in NYC to armed robber. We find bullets, trace it to your gun, find the trafficker who bought from you, and toss him in jail for armed robbery. Good trafficker out of business. Repeat. Till armed robber is caught.

I dont see anything regarding permission in registering a gun, especially one you already own. Its about keeping a trail of what is sold etc etc.

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Srinath.

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