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Oil temps and usage comparison (Read 3373 times)
Charon
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Re: Oil temps and usage comparison
Reply #210 - 10/27/10 at 16:58:56
 
OF, that's pretty much what I expect to find. I expect the heavier (more viscous) oils to result in slightly shorter run times and slightly higher temperatures. I rather expect the two Rotella oils to be just about the same, too, because they are both 40 at running temperatures. A variable exists with ambient temperature, which has turned chilly here in Nebraska. The engine may not warm its oil up to 100 C, the temperature at which oils are rated, particularly with lighter oils. I can make a reasonable measurement of the temperature rise above ambient, but the oil viscosity is a function of actual temperature.

"When you explore the unknown, by definition you don't know what you will find."

I am rather expecting to find all all the oils with the same second number to group together, and oils with different second numbers to differ. I can only hope the differences are pronounced enough to show without precision measuring equipment.
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Charon
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Re: Oil temps and usage comparison
Reply #211 - 10/29/10 at 18:41:52
 
Well, gents, I have made a couple more trial runs, and found some interesting things.

Yesterday, 10/28/2010, I visited a local repair shop to get another oil filler cap, so I can destroy one and still have a cap in case I need the generator. While there I chatted with the proprietor (an old acquaintance), who told me of measuring oil temps on his old BMW 1000 boxer. He said there was available an oil thermometer which replaced the OEM dipstick, and on which he observed oil temperatures approaching 300 F. He mentioned Klotz, saying it got just as hot, but seemed to give him perhaps one or two mpg improvement. He also said Klotz was the only oil he ever used which made his BMW leak, and when he went back to petroleum oil the leak went away.

Based on Verslagen's IR temps for oil, I bought a meat thermometer with a high number of 220 F. I drilled the oil filler plug to a press-fit for the stem of the thermometer, and put the whole works on with the thermometer stem down in the engine oil. I also placed a piece of tape on the generator housing and made a pointer which I attached to the throttle butterfly. I marked throttle wide-open as 100%; throttle closed (to the idle stop) as 0%, and roughly divided the rest of the tape in 10% increments. Bear in mind this is a governed engine with no user throttle control, which is designed to produce somewhere near 60 Hz power, 3600 rpm.

My idea was to start the engine, and as soon as it came up to speed plug both my electric heaters into it and start the stopwatch. When I plugged in the heaters, the throttle solidly pinned against 100% and the engine bogged a little. I didn't like that much, so removed one heater for a moment. Then I figured to see what would happen, since the generator has an overload breaker. I started the stopwatch and plugged the heater back in. At start, the 10W-30 oil temp was 64. When the oil temperature reached 120, in about three minutes, the throttle began to drop. At five minutes the oil was 198 and the throttle had dropped to about 75%. I walked away for a few minutes. When I returned at twelve minutes, the oil temperature was off-scale, at an estimated 240, and the throttle had dropped to about 70%. At 17 minutes the oil was at an estimated 270 and the throttle was about the same. When the engine ran out of fuel at 29 min 25 sec the oil was perhaps 280. Temps above 220 are estimates, since the pointer was off-scale.

Conjectures so far. The oil viscosity decreases as the engine warms, and this is quite significant in terms of throttle position with a fixed load. In fact, it is a heck of a lot more significant under my test conditions than I would ever have guessed. Without casting doubt on Verslagen's measurements, either his Savage engine is cooled a heck of a lot better than the forced-air cooling on my Briggs, or the Briggs is working a lot harder than the Savage. Be it noted the Savage holds about 2.4 quarts while the Briggs holds 20 ounces.

I did some more experimenting today, but I am still digesting results.
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Re: Oil temps and usage comparison
Reply #212 - 10/29/10 at 19:10:58
 
Remember, I'm not taking a direct reading on the oil temp, it's thru the oil filter cover, so some cooling does occur.  300° does seem to be the max running temp when directly read.

And while your generator may be rated for that load, I'd hate to run it at that for any length of time.
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Re: Oil temps and usage comparison
Reply #213 - 10/29/10 at 19:20:30
 
A motorcycle going down the road isn't under a constant  load like your generator is,Unless you were going up a 10 mile hill or pulling a heavy trailer.
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Re: Oil temps and usage comparison
Reply #214 - 10/30/10 at 09:11:30
 

Still, it is interesting stuff.

"Lower viscosity" seems to have an improving performance effect.  I guess that isn't news -- cars have been swinging to thinner and thinner oils of late for economy and performance.

As oils get better & better, you can get away with that.  

When I was a kid, oil weight (thickness) was protection - period.  Manufacturing tolerances (clearances) with iron pistons were a lot greater than they are now too.  

Now days it is beginning to smell like excess weight (thickness) is wasteful of energy, gasoline and leads to higher running temperatures.
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Re: Oil temps and usage comparison
Reply #215 - 10/30/10 at 17:41:04
 
My experiments yesterday, 10/29/2010, revealed some interesting data, although I didn't run the full tank of fuel. First, I determined my original voltage measurements were in error by about five volts. I had used an old analog meter; this time I used a digital and recalibrated the analog. The virtue of the analog meter is its AC plug, making connection easier.

I started by measuring the actual loads of my electric heaters. The one marked 1000 watts is actually closer to 750, depending of course on input voltage. The other was about 1050, but its rating label long since fell off. I did this by measuring current and voltage, then multiplying. For resistive loads this is OK with AC, although strictly speaking I should have called the result VA instead of watts.

On initial engine start, the 10W-30 oil was 70 F; the throttle settled at 38% with no load. Of course, the engine always has the load of its cooling fan and whatever windage load exists in the generator. Output  was 129 volts. I plugged in the larger heater; throttle went to 67%; voltage 116; current 9.4 A; wattage 1090. I unplugged the big heater and plugged in the smaller one. Throttle 45%; voltage 120; current 6.8; wattage 816. I plugged both in; throttle 95%; voltage 105; current 15.1; wattage 1586. This didn't last long, because the power strip into which I plugged the heaters has a circuit breaker that didn't like that much load.

I spent some time fooling around with the different heaters and the power strip. By the time eight minutes had passed the oil temp was over 200 F. A few minutes later, when the oil had reached 225 (est) I did some more checking. With no heaters, throttle was 20%.Small heater, throttle 38%. Large heater, throttle 45%. Both heaters, throttle 70%. Note particularly the differences in throttle position between cold and warm oil. No load cold, 38%; warm 20%. Full load cold, 95%; warm 70%.

I unloaded the generator at about 15 minutes, just to see whether the oil temperature would drop. It did, but quite slowly. I then shut off the unit and called it a day.

At this point I conclude I need to get a thermometer with a higher range to get better numbers. I also conclude the varying viscosity of the oil as it warms causes far more change in the engine loading than I would have imagined. You folks who noticed the idle speed changing as your motorcycles warmed up are not imagining it. Frankly, I am not sure whether my experiment as originally formulated will produce anything worthwhile, but I plan to keep playing with it. I have already discovered information I find interesting.
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Re: Oil temps and usage comparison
Reply #216 - 10/31/10 at 04:57:30
 

What you are getting ready to do is bust up the 20w50 fantasy that Hurley people have been promoting for 100 years or more.

No modern bike (including modern Hurleys) really requires a 20w50 oil any more.

Clearance running tolerances on all parts are controlled statistically at the plant of manufacture.   There are no more "big gaps" on a modern bike to fill up on purpose with a really really thick oil.

Oil has gotten significantly better in the last 15 years -- modern synthetics can protect better and at much higher temperatures than old style dino oils could ever dream about.

A modern 5w-40 synthetic will outperform an old style dino 20w50 for metal protection and it will have a greater film strength and higher retained viscosity at higher than normal operating temperatures than the old dino stuff could provide at  the same elevated temperatures -- with this modern synthetic advantage going right on up & up to very very high temperatures that would have turned the old dino stuff into stinking smoking black jello.



Now, suppose you got you a fancy new synthetic 20w50 oil that didn't thin out like crazy like the old dino 20w50 oils did when they got really hot?    Guess what, you just put some expensive "instant slow down" into your engine that will resist free motion at full tilt usage in every bearing location and gear mesh point that you got because IT WON'T THIN DOWN AS MUCH LIKE THE DINO OIL DID AT THOSE ELEVATED TEMPERATURES.  

That Hurley was designed for the oil to be "dino oil thin" at higher operating temperatures, now you have plugged in some modern synthetic stuff that retains much more of the 20w50 viscosity and completely resists extra thinning as temps go up & up -- ya just put some performance molasses in yer works that is gonna cause power loss and oil and head temperatures to rise unnecessarily when you get into heavy use scenarios.



(and where do you think the wasted power goes? -- into yet more oil heat of course)



Add to it Verslagen's findings about how heavier oils don't transfer heat from the head down to the cases as effectively as thinner oils do and you got a double whammy causing heavy oils to make your bike have to run harder and hotter & hotter to get the same performance level as you go down the road at the same speed.


Grin               weeeeeeeee   .... and the fun continues
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« Last Edit: 10/31/10 at 10:42:30 by Oldfeller--FSO »  

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