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which Carbs work with the bike (Read 933 times)
pitbullcustoms
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which Carbs work with the bike
11/20/09 at 14:52:37
 
So im gonna get started working on the bike soon but i need to either rebuild the carb with new jets or find a carb that is kinda cheap that will be a performance upgrade from the stock carb.. any ideas? would on of a harley sportster 883 work on the  bike?
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Dj12midnit
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Re: which Carbs work with the bike
Reply #1 - 11/20/09 at 21:01:59
 
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LANCER
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Re: which Carbs work with the bike
Reply #2 - 11/21/09 at 08:43:17
 
SUZUKI SAVAGE & S40 PERFORMANCE

CARBURETOR  KIT


KIT CONTENTS

38mm Mikuni VM Carburetor


Thunder Products UFO*

Custom Throttle Cable by Barnett

Rubber flange with new SS bolts

Sudco/Mikuni Tuning Manual

Iridium Spark Plug

Carb Tool

10 Extra Main & 2 extra Pilot Jets in a Jet Carrier

Fuel filter

** Required basic items to make it work

The Mikuni VM roundslide carburetor is the most cost efficient of any type available on the market.  They can be found used on ebay for very low prices fairly often.   An important factor is that the carb have the correct needle, needle jet and slide, so that it will work properly on the LS650.  Many of these used carbs were run on older 2-stroke  racing bikes and have needles/jets/slides that are totally wrong for a LS650.  To replace these parts with the correct ones will cost about $50-60; throw in new main & pilot jets and a bowl gasket and it runs up to $75 or so.  A brand new carburetor is $130-150.  Shipping will be $10-15.  A custom throttle cable: $50 -60 with shp. Rubber flange to mount the VM carb:  $20+ shp.  Assorted main and pilot jets will be needed for tuning at about $4 ea...say $25-30 min.

This is for a bare bones system just to be functional, assuming you know what you are doing already and need no additional help. 

If shopping on ebay for used carburetors, always be sure to check with the seller before you bid, that all of the internal parts are in the carb.  It is not unusual to find that the carb body is empty...no slide or slide spring, jet needle, needle jet, choke/enricher, etc, may be missing.
One way to help insure the parts are there is to ask the seller to provide you with the specific part numbers of the slide, needle and needle jet.  This will show that the seller actually handled the parts and you will know if you have the correct parts you need or if you need to replace them.  Of course, you will need to inspect them yourself after receiving the carb before you know for sure that they are in good condition and usable.  
I have in the past found carbs on ebay for $25 or less that were usable.  Add $100 minimum to get it mounted and working; assuming replacement parts were not required.

Parts to look for:

36mm VM carb  
needle #6FJ6
needle jet #159 Q-5
slide #VM36/36-2.5
needle valve #VM34/39-3.3
air jet #BS30/97 2.0

38mm VM carb
needle #6DP1
needle jet #166 Q-2
slide #VM/38-2.5
needle valve #VM34/39-3.3
air jet #BS30/97 0.5

The starting point for the main jet is a #185 size, series #4/042 hex head
Starting point for pilot jet #20-22.5, series #VM22/210



I hope this is helpful.  Good hunting.

Of course, if you want a complete kit then just let me know.
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Truckinduc
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Re: which Carbs work with the bike
Reply #3 - 11/21/09 at 18:55:54
 
Im running a 40mm Mikuni flat slide pumper. Over 300 bucks alone so not cheap.

Cheapest would be rebuild the stocker and jetting changes.
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gerald.hughes
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Re: which Carbs work with the bike
Reply #4 - 11/21/09 at 19:38:48
 
Lancer,

Clearly you know the Savage like few others on this site.  I am curious why you selected the carb that you did for your kit.  I have seen other members are using the 40mm Mikuni flat slide pumper.  In your opinion, how do these units compare?  I am considering putting a new carb on my bike (I already have a K&N, a dyna muffler, and a rejet-thanks to Serowbot.)  I will probably order your kit, so that I don't have to worry about all of the bits and pieces, but I am curious.  Also, after putting on a new carb, would there be an additional benifit of going from a dyna to a SuperTrapp?

Thanks for any advice.  Always appreciated.
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srinath
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Re: which Carbs work with the bike
Reply #5 - 11/21/09 at 19:44:31
 
Larger carbs will be better for top end. You can get too big that will kill the bottom end in fact ... heck its easy to do that.
Around stock size is OK if its smooth bore, even a bit smaller.
But, well I am yet to swap the carb on any bike let alone a savage.

Cool.
Srinath.
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pitbullcustoms
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Re: which Carbs work with the bike
Reply #6 - 11/22/09 at 07:54:52
 
I see that alot of people have alot more money then me to put into there bikes... but i have a friend that just took his stock Harley sportster 883 carb off and was wondering if it is possible that that carb will work with the savage?
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Re: which Carbs work with the bike
Reply #7 - 11/22/09 at 09:47:56
 
Lancer,

Clearly you know the Savage like few others on this site.  I am curious why you selected the carb that you did for your kit.  
The quick answer is that the VM carb provides the biggest bang for the buck.
More detail:  A roundslide carb is the traditional performance carb of choice for professional racers of big singles.  They are simple, inexpensive, easy to tune, and make very good power.  They have been used for over 40 years with great success.  The Mikuni VM roundslide series carburetors have been used more than any other carburetor in the history of motorcycles.  The 36mm & 38mm VM carbs retail for only $150 +/-which makes them very cost effective.


I have seen other members are using the 40mm Mikuni flat slide pumper.  In your opinion, how do these units compare?
The flatslides, with or without an accelerator pump, are very good carburetors, produce good power and in some cases (w/o acc. pump) are pretty cost effective.
Carb size:  I think a 40mm flatslide is too large for the LS650 engine.  As mentioned by another member, its larger bore will slow  intake air velocity which will reduce power in the lower throttle range.  A 36mm carb is a better fit for a stock engine or one with the Stage 1 Performance Camshaft .  A 38mm carburetor is more appropriate for a more highly modified engine with ported head, higher compression, Stage 1 or especially Stage 2 Performance Camshaft , bored cylinder, and custom header of at least 1.5" ID or 1.65" ID and a performance muffler like a Supertrapp or Hard Krome, etc.
Back to VM roundslide vs TM flatslide ... As I already stated, cost is a prime factor.  From a performance standpoint, a VM carb with a UFO installed under the slide will outperform a flatslide carb of equal size in the low-mid throttle range, and equal or near-equal performance in the high throttle range.
Thunder Products (mfg. of the UFO) dyno tests of VM (w/ UFO) vs TM carbs clearly show the performance advantage of the VM carb.   A UFO is only $30 and when installed on a well tuned VM carb will boost power by 1 hp per 100cc of engine size.  That works out to a 6 hp boost on the LS650 engine.  The increased power and near instant throttle response is so pronounced that it takes some getting used to;  having to retrain your right hand on throttle control touch.  It is amazing.   The bike virtually jumps when you crank it on !   Grin  Really !
The accelerator pump on a flatslide carb will provide a short boost when you crack the throttle open quickly but then its affect deminishes.  The UFO strongly boosts power & responsiveness up to about 5/8ths throttle. 



 I am considering putting a new carb on my bike (I already have a K&N, a dyna muffler, and a rejet-thanks to Serowbot.)  I will probably order your kit, so that I don't have to worry about all of the bits and pieces, but I am curious.  Also, after putting on a new carb, would there be an additional benifit of going from a dyna to a SuperTrapp?

 YES.   Even more so if you replace the stock  header with a 1.5-1.65" header as mentioned above.
the high flow and tunability of the S/T make it a very good choice for a modified LS650 engine.




Thanks for any advice.  Always appreciated.

 
PS:   I forgot to mention an important point.  Why choose a 36mm or 38mm VM carb when replacing a 40mm CV carb ?
One of our forum members, KLX650, who is a professional builder of perfomance exhausts for a variety of machine types, posted some info in the past about CV vs roundslide or flatslide performance carbs.  
It is important to take notice that in the way a CV carb is designed and built, there is a butterfly valve which is operated by the throttle cable.  There is also the vacuum controlled slide.  A 40mm CV carb has an effective throat size of only about 37mm when the size of the butterfly valve is subtracted from the total volume of the carb bore.
When this is taken into account you can see that a 36 or 38mm round or flatslide carb is equivalent in bore size to the 40mm CV carb.
The roundslide and flatslide still have a  better air flow velocity though, because there is nothing in the bore to interfer with that flow, like in the CV carb where the butterfly valve is like a barn door in the way of the flow.



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Re: which Carbs work with the bike
Reply #8 - 11/22/09 at 14:31:48
 
I have yet to see and adverse affects of my 40mm pumper.  One reason I put it on was, well I already had the carb.  

The carb does not fit easily, an adapter has to be made.

Im still playing with jetting, but ive picked up alot of low end power. I never run it over 3/4 throttle cause its still too lean up top.

Ive got the accelerator pump completely disabled at the moment. Ill play with it once i get the jetting right.

and when i say I picked up low end power I mean 2nd gear power slides at 1/2  throttle on corner exit.

I thought I was the only one using this carb?
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Re: which Carbs work with the bike
Reply #9 - 11/22/09 at 15:15:43
 
Adverse effects compared to what - a stock carbed savage ? no comparison there. Its really to be compared to a 36/38 properly set up on the savage.
Cool.
Srinath.
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Re: which Carbs work with the bike
Reply #10 - 11/22/09 at 15:22:04
 
Truckinduc wrote on 11/22/09 at 14:31:48:
I have yet to see and adverse affects of my 40mm pumper.  One reason I put it on was, well I already had the carb.  

The carb does not fit easily, an adapter has to be made.

Im still playing with jetting, but ive picked up alot of low end power. I never run it over 3/4 throttle cause its still too lean up top.

Ive got the accelerator pump completely disabled at the moment. Ill play with it once i get the jetting right.

and when i say I picked up low end power I mean 2nd gear power slides at 1/2  throttle on corner exit.

I thought I was the only one using this carb?



Hey, when it is a "parts on hand" situation, you cannot beat that.    A 40mm flatslide is a nice part to have sitting on the shelf to be able to throw on and use.  
What did you use for the mounting adapter ?  Metal, plastic or rubber ?
One of the great things about any performance carburetor  is the performance gain over the stock carb.  
Working out the jetting when starting from scratch can be a real test of your endurance and patience.  Sometimes you start asking yourself why the heck you even started it in the first place.  But...... all is forgotten when you finally get it dialed in and you can roar off  down the road and enjoy the gains in power and responsiveness.

What did you do about the throttle cable and air filter ?
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Re: which Carbs work with the bike
Reply #11 - 11/22/09 at 17:25:27
 
see http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1244672018/0#0 for the jetting setup on the tm40. if you are using the harley pump nozzle jet it will be way to rich.
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Re: which Carbs work with the bike
Reply #12 - 11/22/09 at 20:05:55
 
Im using a gsxr 750 push pull throttle. Had to cut my bars and weld on a 7/8" bar end.

Pod filter.

I turned a piece of derlin on the lathe for an adapter. I think I have a little air leave so Im gonna try something else.

Not running a harley jet. Running a 198 main right now and its too small.

I got the carb at dealer cost so I thought why not. even got one for my 150cc scooter. It was originally going on my supermoto build.

Anone around NE TN. with a 36/38? Id love to compare.
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Re: which Carbs work with the bike
Reply #13 - 11/23/09 at 02:59:36
 
what size ap nozzle jet are you running? the gap for the accelerator pump [ap] rod should be be around .100" or a Popsicle stick. i had already set up a tm40 up on my dr650 where the jetting has a good date base. i used that data as the starting point for my friends ls650 project and adjusted from there. most dr650 tm40 jetting is around a 150 main, even with an open airbox. are you sure that your float height is set to spec? or as you stated you might have an air leak. i got my carb mount step rings from procycle, the ones for the dr650 are a plug in, but they need to be jbwelded on..
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Re: which Carbs work with the bike
Reply #14 - 11/23/09 at 06:42:05
 
Truckinduc wrote on 11/22/09 at 20:05:55:
Im using a gsxr 750 push pull throttle. Had to cut my bars and weld on a 7/8" bar end.

Pod filter.

I turned a piece of derlin on the lathe for an adapter. I think I have a little air leave so Im gonna try something else.

Not running a harley jet. Running a 198 main right now and its too small.

I got the carb at dealer cost so I thought why not. even got one for my 150cc scooter. It was originally going on my supermoto build.

Anone around NE TN. with a 36/38? Id love to compare.



I checked the Sudco catalog and the TM40 will use the same rubber flange as the 36/38mm VM carb.  You REALLY  NEED to have a good seal between carb and head, otherwise you will never be able to jet & tune the carb properly.

The Sudco part #002-054 is the one you want and it retails for $22.84.
You need the rubber flange.  The head to flange and flange to carb seal is absolutely critical.
You can order directly from Sudco by calling 323-728-5407
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