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Savage FI (Read 432 times)
craigq
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Re: Savage FI
Reply #15 - 03/28/09 at 05:56:39
 
Honda did it to their CBR125R (originally carb'd from 2004-2007, 2007-up it's EFI'd).

Kawasaki did it with their EX250/Ninja250 (but use some lame excuse not to sell the EFI version here in N.A. that it would cost too much, yeah right economy of scale people!!!).

As noted Triumph did it with their Bonnie's...

Suzuki already did it to their 250cc thumper engine used in the GZ250 for their new retro/UJM TU250X (albeit with a different head).


No reason a couple of Suzuki engineers couldn't either reuse something from the parts bin or develop something new for the LS650...


My experience moving from a carb'd EX250 to a EFI'd CBR125R is that cold-starting is much easier with EFI, no choke to fiddle with. I use(d) both for daily commuting, rain/damp and cold would have the EX250 running oddly. The 125R is just fine under any weather conditions. I could've rejetted the EX250 etc but I didn't really want to dig in under all that tupperware and potentially mess things up (I'd already done that with a valve adjustment following FSM torque values rather than listening to the voice of experience Grin ). Power-wise there is no comparison, double the displacement = around double the power (EX250 is DOHC 4V, 125R is SOHC 2V so that makes a difference too for engine breathability)...
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Jay
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Re: Savage FI
Reply #16 - 03/28/09 at 23:07:25
 
[quote author=0F242D3E23224C0 link=1238018544/0#14 date=1238244413]I perhaps thought of a different connotation to the word "perfect." I thought of it in its meaning of "cannot be improved." If we are using "perfect" in the sense of being a good basic foundation for all sorts of improvements, we have moved it into the Harley philosopy of supplying just enough machine to be ridden to the accessories outlet. There is apparently a difference in philosophy, here. I want to spend my time riding, not modifiying or wrenching. I try to look for, and buy, the machine that comes closest to what I want, so I don't have to spend (waste?) my time and money changing it.[/quote]

I want that bike too. Let me know if you find it. I've not had one yet that I didn't have to "fiddle" with to get it just right for me. On some of those bikes, I was limited as to how much "fiddling" I could do. Not much of a limit on the Savage. That said, like you, I'd rather spend my time riding than wrenching. You are correct in assessing my definition of "perfect". It's more of a philosophical statement, ment to showcase that with the Savage, uinlike many others, it is possible to modify. As to it being only enough bike to ride to the accessories outlet, there are some who do ride it stock. I've actually done relatively few mods to mine. Seat mod, idle adjust (brass plug), EdL's forward controls, and fork boots. Two comfort, one performance, one asthetic. Not bad for a bike under $5K new. I think we are not as far apart on our views as it might have first appeared. As someone I regard as having high inteligence, based on your previous posts, what bike rates as "best" based on the criteria you outline?
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Charon
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Re: Savage FI
Reply #17 - 03/30/09 at 17:51:52
 
Too bad there is no easy answer, because there is no perfect bike - or car, or truck, or boat, or for that matter house. The closest one can come involves first defining the purpose. For highway cruising, probably a Gold Wing or other tourer. For canyon carving (canyons are scarce in Nebraska) one of the sportbikes. For riding off-road, something different again. Any change in the bike will change the balance of compromises made by the engineers. The change may or may not improve the bike.

My choice of the S40 was driven by my desire to have a big single. There are few on the market - the KLR650, the S40, and (then) the BMW 650 Rotax single. The BMW was way outside my budget. The S40 is belt driven, a minus when you live as I do on a gravel road where the chance of rock damage to the belt always exists. So I tried the KLR, and found I could never get comfortable on it because of its height. I sold it. I had wanted a Savage ever since they first came out in the 80s, because of the engine and the appearance. I knew before I bought it of many of its drawbacks, but for my uses it is a better compromise than the KLR. I will point out that I also have a 250 Ninja, which in stock form is faster, bigger fuel tank, better fuel mileage, better wind protection, smoother, better suspension and brakes, and considerably less expensive. Comfort is subjective, and each is comfortable (or uncomfortable) in different ways.

One thing I think would improve almost any bike (except for the inveterate tinkerers) would be less maintenance. Except for oil changes, most cars run anywhere from 50,000 to 100,000 miles before you even touch the engine. Car tires last, on cars, about the same. And car tires are cheaper to buy, and to have mounted. I understand that there are economies of scale in making cars. I still think bikes coiuld stand a LOT of improvement.
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Jay
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Re: Savage FI
Reply #18 - 03/31/09 at 00:16:56
 
As I thought. You and I are very close in thought on this subject. One of the reasons I chose the Savage over the Ninja 250 was because of the relative (to me) ease of maintenence. It was close though. The fuel economy and initial cost of ownership of the Ninja was certainly in its favor. Ultimately, it was the testimony of Ninja owners and shop mechanics lamenting the "tupperware" that has to be removed for routine work on the Ninja; coupled with the inherent complications associated with a water cooled engine over an air coled one, the limited carrying capacity of the Ninja (tailbag tankbag, and back pack); and the seating arrangement for the Ninja that swayed me towards the Savage. I'd previously owned a KLR. Loved it, but it too had limitations I didn't want to have to "fiddle" with again. Minus the quality issues and the absence of an engine truly capable of highway speeds, I would have likely purchased a Royal Enfield. So many choices, so little money. Smiley
The Savage ended up best serving my purposes, with the fewest limitations.
As you said, it truly is subjective. Easy to one is complex to another. Comfortable to one is torture to another. Had I ended up with the Ninja, I wuold most likely have come to overlook its shortcomings, and loved it too.
Thanks for the reply. Well thought out, as usual. I've come to value your contributions to this site. Thanks again Charon.
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diamond jim
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Re: Savage FI
Reply #19 - 03/31/09 at 05:36:10
 
I've lost count long ago of the friends who said they wanted a bike that they "didn't need to do anything to".   Then a year later they've got a new exhaust, FI processor, grips, forward controls, bars, etc.  Honestly, I don't think there are many new bikes out there that "need" anything done to them.  I feel mods are done cause we "want" it that way.  Do we have to do the white spacer mod?  Not really.  There are lots of LS650s out there without the mod.  But we want all of the benefits of the white spacer mod.  We "want" it different.  

Over on another site I read a post yesterday about a member helping his buddy who is brand new to motorcycling find a new cruiser for him.  Cost was important to his friend.  The author wrote this:
"I was able to recommend the M50, The vulcan 900, Vstar 950, Honda shadow, and H-D sportster 883 or 1200. Does anyone else know any bikes that I left off the list for a beginner motorcyclist that are cruisers? I would like to be able to give him all the options and try not to be as biased as I openly acknowledge I am a die hard suzuki fan. Anything below 1300cc should be fine."

I told him that his buddy could get a new S40 for about $2000 less than the lowest priced bike on his list.  I told him that with a few little mods it becomes a different bike.  His response- "he wants a bike that he doesn't have to do anything to".  My money says his buddy will have a new exhaust, handlebars, seat or forward controls within 2 years of getting his new beginner bike.  That would be funny cause his friend didn't "need" to do anything to his new bike! It's truly a sign of motorcycle immaturity in my book.  To me it's like a teenager saying, "When I turn 21, I'll be an adult and I can do anything I want and nobody will be able to tell me what to do".  Ha ha, yeah, right!
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Charon
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Re: Savage FI
Reply #20 - 03/31/09 at 06:36:53
 
To that list, based on "cruiser styling," could be added the 500 Vulcan, the 250 and 650 V-Stars, Honda's 250 Rebel, and Suzuki's 250 singles. If the V-twin look is required, the S40, the Rebel, any single, and the 500 Vulcan must be dropped. Once again, before making a selection, one must define what is required.

I agree that no stock motorcycle "needs" modifications to be usable right off the showroom floor. But most of us will want at least some storage, which often will come in the form of saddlebags. For riding any distance most will want some form of wind protection. Lots of antisocial "rebel" types will use the "Loud Pipes Save Lives" red herring to justify loud exhaust systems - "mine is louder than yours." Style is probably the biggest driver for modifications, and the most subjective. Aftermarket exhausts fit here much better than under performance - notice the ads for them show pictures and describe appearance rather than showing performance curves. I noticed a thread describing a ride on the Tail of the Dragon last year, and it seems from reading the comments that the box-stock Savages generally did just about as well as the heavily modified ones. Maybe there is a lesson there.
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