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General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Savage FI
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Message started by Sarge on 03/25/09 at 15:02:24

Title: Savage FI
Post by Sarge on 03/25/09 at 15:02:24

Looked at the 2009 Triumph Bonnevilles last week. Noticed that they were fuel injected for the first time this year. The throttle bodies looked a lot like carbs so the retro look was maintained. I think they went to FI in order to ensure compliance with ever increasing smog requirements in Europe and here? I wonder if Savage will be fuel injected or discontinued sometime in the next few years. :-/

Title: Re: Savage FI
Post by diamond jim on 03/25/09 at 15:07:45

My money's on the second scenario.

Title: Re: Savage FI
Post by Trippah on 03/25/09 at 16:50:23

I wonder if BMW's Rotax single FI system could be modified to work on a Savage?

Title: Re: Savage FI
Post by Trippah on 03/25/09 at 16:52:19

Of course, they would have to modify the gas tank, and we all know it's sooo cloooose to perfection now..i suspect the second scenario also.

Title: Re: Savage FI
Post by Charon on 03/25/09 at 17:08:23

My guess is that it will be the end of the road for the Savage/S40. I figure fuel injection will add several hundred dollars to the price and it will add nothing in performance. I figure the S40 is doomed in a year or so. Suzuki did introduce a 250 cc fuel injected model, so it is at least conceivable that the S40 will soldier on. FI will cure the backfire.

Title: Re: Savage FI
Post by SavageDanny on 03/25/09 at 17:33:06

If they quit making the Savage/S40, what will the spare part situation be?

So Sarge, did you like the new Bonnie?

Title: Re: Savage FI
Post by Yonuh Adisi on 03/25/09 at 17:50:33

053720373133123738382F560 wrote:

If they quit making the Savage/S40, what will the spare part situation be?

So Sarge, did you like the new Bonnie?

If they stop making the Savage/S40 I do believe the spare parts will still be plentiful for at least a few years then it will start dwindling.

Title: Re: Savage FI
Post by Jay on 03/25/09 at 19:03:29

Isn't that just way?! You finally find the perfect bike, and they have to go and maybe quit making it. I'll keep mine running as long as possible just for spite!

Title: Re: Savage FI
Post by Charon on 03/25/09 at 19:41:16

Must not be perfect to everyone, or there wouldn't be all these posts about modifying it. Let's see - cure the backfire, change the exhaust, "white spacer mod", change the seat, add forward controls, change the tires, change the battery, turn it into a bobber, chain conversion, bigger fuel tank, change the petcock, and on and on. If it were perfect, there would be no need for modifications.

Title: Re: Savage FI
Post by verslagen1 on 03/25/09 at 19:55:56

So some guys thumps down 20g for a harley, you gonna tell 'em he can't change it?

http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk80/tlukatch/image17.jpg

Title: Re: Savage FI
Post by Sarge on 03/26/09 at 10:14:51

5B697E696F6D4C69666671080 wrote:

If they quit making the Savage/S40, what will the spare part situation be?

So Sarge, did you like the new Bonnie?

I really like the retro looks of the Bonneville T100 and Scrambler. They remind me of the bikes I wanted when I was young. Downside is they weigh about 100 pounds more than Savage and cost upwards of $8000 new. Guess I will be keeping my trusty 2003 Savage.

Title: Re: Savage FI
Post by SavageDanny on 03/26/09 at 10:19:31

I will be staying on my 88 for now. Still paying on my truck. When that thing gets paid off though it's going to be real hard not to go shopping for a new bike. However the Savage will be staying in the garage. Wouldn't trade it in for anything.

Title: Re: Savage FI
Post by Jay on 03/27/09 at 23:05:17

0C272E3D20214F0 wrote:

But Charon, that's the whole point! Try doing that stuff to a Goldwing, or a Ninja, or a KLR. Oh, sure, you can make some mods to almost any bike; but look at the vast number of mods that can be made to the Savage! Some for comfort, some for performance, some for purely asthetic reasons. The Savage takes 'em all, and continues to run. For the less adventurous, and/or the few people that the Savage actually fits right out of the crate, there's always leaving it just plain stock. What other bike, in the Savage's price and performance range, can have so much done to it so realatively easy? That's what I'm talking about.

Title: Re: Savage FI
Post by BurnPgh on 03/27/09 at 23:59:43

careful with mods though. It gets addictive and can end up being quite pricey. I've gone with chain drive, cast wheels from a gs450, SE muffler and (in progress) rejet, I've sold my stock sissy bar and am going to fab my own tall sissy bar, progressive 4005 shocks. Every time i look at my bike Im cooking up new ideas...cone air filter maybe, saw a mod with a great big headlight on here from way back when, aftermakret turn signals, rake job one day maybe, and who knows what else?

Title: Re: Savage FI
Post by Charon on 03/28/09 at 05:46:53

I perhaps thought of a different connotation to the word "perfect." I thought of it in its meaning of "cannot be improved." If we are using "perfect" in the sense of being a good basic foundation for all sorts of improvements, we have moved it into the Harley philosopy of supplying just enough machine to be ridden to the accessories outlet. There is apparently a difference in philosophy, here. I want to spend my time riding, not modifiying or wrenching. I try to look for, and buy, the machine that comes closest to what I want, so I don't have to spend (waste?) my time and money changing it.

Title: Re: Savage FI
Post by craigq on 03/28/09 at 05:56:39

Honda did it to their CBR125R (originally carb'd from 2004-2007, 2007-up it's EFI'd).

Kawasaki did it with their EX250/Ninja250 (but use some lame excuse not to sell the EFI version here in N.A. that it would cost too much, yeah right economy of scale people!!!).

As noted Triumph did it with their Bonnie's...

Suzuki already did it to their 250cc thumper engine used in the GZ250 for their new retro/UJM TU250X (albeit with a different head).

No reason a couple of Suzuki engineers couldn't either reuse something from the parts bin or develop something new for the LS650...

My experience moving from a carb'd EX250 to a EFI'd CBR125R is that cold-starting is much easier with EFI, no choke to fiddle with. I use(d) both for daily commuting, rain/damp and cold would have the EX250 running oddly. The 125R is just fine under any weather conditions. I could've rejetted the EX250 etc but I didn't really want to dig in under all that tupperware and potentially mess things up (I'd already done that with a valve adjustment following FSM torque values rather than listening to the voice of experience ;D ). Power-wise there is no comparison, double the displacement = around double the power (EX250 is DOHC 4V, 125R is SOHC 2V so that makes a difference too for engine breathability)...

Title: Re: Savage FI
Post by Jay on 03/28/09 at 23:07:25

0F242D3E23224C0 wrote:

I want that bike too. Let me know if you find it. I've not had one yet that I didn't have to "fiddle" with to get it just right for me. On some of those bikes, I was limited as to how much "fiddling" I could do. Not much of a limit on the Savage. That said, like you, I'd rather spend my time riding than wrenching. You are correct in assessing my definition of "perfect". It's more of a philosophical statement, ment to showcase that with the Savage, uinlike many others, it is possible to modify. As to it being only enough bike to ride to the accessories outlet, there are some who do ride it stock. I've actually done relatively few mods to mine. Seat mod, idle adjust (brass plug), EdL's forward controls, and fork boots. Two comfort, one performance, one asthetic. Not bad for a bike under $5K new. I think we are not as far apart on our views as it might have first appeared. As someone I regard as having high inteligence, based on your previous posts, what bike rates as "best" based on the criteria you outline?

Title: Re: Savage FI
Post by Charon on 03/30/09 at 17:51:52

Too bad there is no easy answer, because there is no perfect bike - or car, or truck, or boat, or for that matter house. The closest one can come involves first defining the purpose. For highway cruising, probably a Gold Wing or other tourer. For canyon carving (canyons are scarce in Nebraska) one of the sportbikes. For riding off-road, something different again. Any change in the bike will change the balance of compromises made by the engineers. The change may or may not improve the bike.

My choice of the S40 was driven by my desire to have a big single. There are few on the market - the KLR650, the S40, and (then) the BMW 650 Rotax single. The BMW was way outside my budget. The S40 is belt driven, a minus when you live as I do on a gravel road where the chance of rock damage to the belt always exists. So I tried the KLR, and found I could never get comfortable on it because of its height. I sold it. I had wanted a Savage ever since they first came out in the 80s, because of the engine and the appearance. I knew before I bought it of many of its drawbacks, but for my uses it is a better compromise than the KLR. I will point out that I also have a 250 Ninja, which in stock form is faster, bigger fuel tank, better fuel mileage, better wind protection, smoother, better suspension and brakes, and considerably less expensive. Comfort is subjective, and each is comfortable (or uncomfortable) in different ways.

One thing I think would improve almost any bike (except for the inveterate tinkerers) would be less maintenance. Except for oil changes, most cars run anywhere from 50,000 to 100,000 miles before you even touch the engine. Car tires last, on cars, about the same. And car tires are cheaper to buy, and to have mounted. I understand that there are economies of scale in making cars. I still think bikes coiuld stand a LOT of improvement.

Title: Re: Savage FI
Post by Jay on 03/31/09 at 00:16:56

As I thought. You and I are very close in thought on this subject. One of the reasons I chose the Savage over the Ninja 250 was because of the relative (to me) ease of maintenence. It was close though. The fuel economy and initial cost of ownership of the Ninja was certainly in its favor. Ultimately, it was the testimony of Ninja owners and shop mechanics lamenting the "tupperware" that has to be removed for routine work on the Ninja; coupled with the inherent complications associated with a water cooled engine over an air coled one, the limited carrying capacity of the Ninja (tailbag tankbag, and back pack); and the seating arrangement for the Ninja that swayed me towards the Savage. I'd previously owned a KLR. Loved it, but it too had limitations I didn't want to have to "fiddle" with again. Minus the quality issues and the absence of an engine truly capable of highway speeds, I would have likely purchased a Royal Enfield. So many choices, so little money. :)
The Savage ended up best serving my purposes, with the fewest limitations.
As you said, it truly is subjective. Easy to one is complex to another. Comfortable to one is torture to another. Had I ended up with the Ninja, I wuold most likely have come to overlook its shortcomings, and loved it too.
Thanks for the reply. Well thought out, as usual. I've come to value your contributions to this site. Thanks again Charon.

Title: Re: Savage FI
Post by diamond jim on 03/31/09 at 05:36:10

I've lost count long ago of the friends who said they wanted a bike that they "didn't need to do anything to". Then a year later they've got a new exhaust, FI processor, grips, forward controls, bars, etc. Honestly, I don't think there are many new bikes out there that "need" anything done to them. I feel mods are done cause we "want" it that way. Do we have to do the white spacer mod? Not really. There are lots of LS650s out there without the mod. But we want all of the benefits of the white spacer mod. We "want" it different.

Over on another site I read a post yesterday about a member helping his buddy who is brand new to motorcycling find a new cruiser for him. Cost was important to his friend. The author wrote this:
"I was able to recommend the M50, The vulcan 900, Vstar 950, Honda shadow, and H-D sportster 883 or 1200. Does anyone else know any bikes that I left off the list for a beginner motorcyclist that are cruisers? I would like to be able to give him all the options and try not to be as biased as I openly acknowledge I am a die hard suzuki fan. Anything below 1300cc should be fine."

I told him that his buddy could get a new S40 for about $2000 less than the lowest priced bike on his list. I told him that with a few little mods it becomes a different bike. His response- "he wants a bike that he doesn't have to do anything to". My money says his buddy will have a new exhaust, handlebars, seat or forward controls within 2 years of getting his new beginner bike. That would be funny cause his friend didn't "need" to do anything to his new bike! It's truly a sign of motorcycle immaturity in my book. To me it's like a teenager saying, "When I turn 21, I'll be an adult and I can do anything I want and nobody will be able to tell me what to do". Ha ha, yeah, right!

Title: Re: Savage FI
Post by Charon on 03/31/09 at 06:36:53

To that list, based on "cruiser styling," could be added the 500 Vulcan, the 250 and 650 V-Stars, Honda's 250 Rebel, and Suzuki's 250 singles. If the V-twin look is required, the S40, the Rebel, any single, and the 500 Vulcan must be dropped. Once again, before making a selection, one must define what is required.

I agree that no stock motorcycle "needs" modifications to be usable right off the showroom floor. But most of us will want at least some storage, which often will come in the form of saddlebags. For riding any distance most will want some form of wind protection. Lots of antisocial "rebel" types will use the "Loud Pipes Save Lives" red herring to justify loud exhaust systems - "mine is louder than yours." Style is probably the biggest driver for modifications, and the most subjective. Aftermarket exhausts fit here much better than under performance - notice the ads for them show pictures and describe appearance rather than showing performance curves. I noticed a thread describing a ride on the Tail of the Dragon last year, and it seems from reading the comments that the box-stock Savages generally did just about as well as the heavily modified ones. Maybe there is a lesson there.