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Removed the white spacer, what else? (Read 70 times)
Firefighter
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Removed the white spacer, what else?
10/22/04 at 16:52:59
 
I got brave and tackled the job of removing the white spacer in the carb today.  Not a hard job at all. Now I know how to get the tank off  Cheesy.

The bike seems to backfire ALOT less now.  Is there anything else to do.  It seems to be running fine.  I don't know what jet kit is in it.  When the Supertrapp was put on, the shop supposedly put in a new jet kit "tuned" with the supertrapp.  Not sure what that means.
This was done before I bought the bike.

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Savage_Greg
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Re: Removed the white spacer, what else?
Reply #1 - 10/23/04 at 02:51:04
 
The only way to know what jet kit was installed would be to remove each jet and compare them to the manual specs.
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bobo383
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Re: Removed the white spacer, what else?
Reply #2 - 10/23/04 at 07:46:27
 
Play with it.  I took out my white spacer and drilled out the idle mixture screw cover, and it ran a little rich even with the idle mixture screw all the way in.  ALL the running backfires disappeared, but there was still a fart after I killed the motor.   That was an improvement, as it sounded like a shotgun before removing the white spacer and afterwards just a fart.  

So I got brave (stupid?) - figuring since I still had the stock exhaust I'd play with it a little before replacing it.  I removed the rear baffle with lots of drilling, cold chiseling, and cleaning it up with a die grinder.  Exhaust is loud, and no more backfires when killing the motor, and the bike runs strong.  Still a tiny bit rich, but strong.  This is with the idle screw all the way in.  If I back out the idle screw, it puts out black smoke.  I really think putting in bigger jets and replacing the white spacer will be the way to go, to make the idle circuit work like it's supposed to, but playing with it is all the fun for me.  Mine is an 86, and it still has the 145 stock main jet.    

One last backfire to tune out, though - If I turn the idle way down to a harley-like lope, where the motor is barely running, it will backfire when I let off the gas from 50 mph or so.  As long as I have a sensible idle speed it will not do this.  I probably will have to live with this one, I think.
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bobo383
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Re: Removed the white spacer, what else?
Reply #3 - 10/23/04 at 08:53:04
 
Meant to say mine's 98, not an 86.  Old age + ADD.
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Re: Removed the white spacer, what else?
Reply #4 - 10/23/04 at 09:10:25
 
ok, I am confused.  What are you talking about "drilling out" ?

Isn't the idle screw just a screw that you turn. It's right under the fuel shut off ? Or am I looking at the wrong thing ?

When I turn it it bumps the idle up and down.
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Re: Removed the white spacer, what else?
Reply #5 - 10/23/04 at 09:44:46
 
Firefighter wrote on 12/31/69 at 16:00:10:
ok, I am confused.  What are you talking about "drilling out" ?

Isn't the idle screw just a screw that you turn. It's right under the fuel shut off ? Or am I looking at the wrong thing ?

When I turn it it bumps the idle up and down.


That screw is the idle speed screw.

The idle fuel mixture screw is on the right side...upper front with a brass plug (and a dab of white paint and a small hole).  You drill out the plug to get to the screw.  Easy to do.
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bobo383
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Re: Removed the white spacer, what else?
Reply #6 - 10/23/04 at 10:38:26
 
I took some pictures, one of the idle speed screw you describe and another of the mixture screw I confused you with.  I can't figure out hos to post a picture on this site, but if you'll email me I'll send you the pics.  Your email address is hidden or I would have sent it to you already.  Here's my address:

belindabobo@sbcglobal.net
-Michael Bobo (Mr. Belinda)
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Re: Removed the white spacer, what else?
Reply #7 - 10/23/04 at 15:24:37
 
My email is:
r0464@indygov.org

Thanks!
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Re: Removed the white spacer, what else?
Reply #8 - 10/23/04 at 15:32:41
 
Ok, I am 99.9% sure I know where it is, and if I am correct, it has already been drilled out.  There is a flat head brass screw inside.

Now, how do I know what kind of adjustments to make ?

I don't know what jet kit is in it.  ???  That was done the same time the Supertrapp was put on. Since I took out the spacer, it backfires just a little bit now.
I haven't been out on the road really with it since i did it though.
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bobo383
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Re: Removed the white spacer, what else?
Reply #9 - 10/23/04 at 17:19:08
 
The idle mixture screw changes your idle and when you barely crack the throttle off idle.  It may also help with your backfire condition.  To figure out where you want the mixture screw, it's always good to know where you started from.  That way you can always put it back like it was before.

To figure out where the screw is now, take a little screwdriver and count the clockwise (IN) turns it takes to seat the misture screw -- Gently, don't force it, it's a delicate little needle on the end.  Then turn your mixture screw right back out to where it was before you started, same # of turns counter clockwise, so it's exactly like it was before you started.  Now you know no matter how messed up you think you may get, you can set it back like it was before you messed with it.

Next, fire up the bike and warm it up by riding it around for a while.  You must get the engine up to operating temp for the mixture adjustments to mean anything.  Bring it home and WITH IT RUNNING, turn the idle mixture screw IN (clockwise) till you notice the idle slow down.  It may not slow down for you without the white spacer, but if it does, you have found the leanest setting you want -- least fuel at idle.  

Then turn the idle screw OUT (counterclockwise) and you will probably notice the idle speed up and then if you keep going, the idle will get bad again.  That's the richest setting you want -- most fuel at idle.  You may also see black smoke from the tailpipe from the rich condition.   Without the white spacer, and with presumably bigger jets, you'll probably see rich pretty quick.  But, who knows till you try.

If you can find the lean and rich endpoints, put the screw about in the middle of the two and see how that works for you -- starting, idling, killing the bike, backfiring, etc.

When you find the mixture screw setting you like, kill the bike and count the number of turns to seat the screw, then back it back out again.  Now you know where you want it today.  When it gets really cold you might want to change it a bit.

Someday you'll probably play with the idle speed screw and notice when you change the idle speed screw you should go back and change the mixture screw as well, especially with no spacer.  Play with it and find the idle that works best for you.

My bike's mixture screw was 1/2 turn out from the factory when I started playing with it, before removing the white spacer.  My bike never leaned out at idle after I yanked out the white spacer, so my idle screw is now all the way in and the bike is happy.  If I turn it out past a half turn now, the idle slows and black smoke comes from the pipe (too rich).

Keep us posted, email if you want.  Good luck with it!
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Re: Removed the white spacer, what else?
Reply #10 - 10/23/04 at 18:16:01
 
Man thanks for the detailed instructions!!  I really do appreciate it.

I will give that a go this week.  I can't tomorrow, I'm going to the Colts game   Grin

I am starting to learn alot about motorcycles, this is my first bike.

I use to have a BMW M3, and I knew that thing inside and out, and did all kinds of mods to it, but when it comes to bikes, it is all new to me.

Agian, I really do appreciate your help and the pictures you sent.

Also, I wonder if mine has been messed with when the jet kit was installed since the brass plug has already been drilled out.  ???
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bobo383
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Re: Removed the white spacer, what else?
Reply #11 - 10/23/04 at 19:12:47
 
Probably, and that's a good thing -- means you didn't have to drill it out and dress up the top of the screw from the drill boogering it up.

Plugs over the mixture screw are relatively new -- old carbs had the mixture screw out in the open like the good Lord intended.  EPA regulations mandated less emissions, and tamper-proof carburetors were a result.  OK when new, but need to be adjusted after a few years.

What year is your bike?
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Re: Removed the white spacer, what else?
Reply #12 - 10/23/04 at 20:13:43
 
Mine is a '98 with 3200 miles on it.
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rkutzner
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Re: Removed the white spacer, what else?
Reply #13 - 10/24/04 at 05:07:06
 
Guys, I really don't want to start something here as I am new to this forum and my 'Savage' S40 Grin.  But I am NOT new to these carbs and engines and have two points of concern for you to consider:

1. If the idle mixture screw is all the way in then there is a problem with another circuit in your carb (or your pilot jet is too big but most folks and jet kits don't touch this).  Your mixture screw should be out around 1 - 2 turns.

2. Taking out that white spacer without AT LEAST replacing it with a thinner washer is a HACK JOB.  If you are willing to adjust your needle, get a Dynojet kit (is there any other out there?) and use the adjustments on that to do it right.  Also, if adjusting a bike with a kit already installed, be aware that Dynojets main jet sizes do NOT correspond to Mikuni's sizes.  I would guess that a 150 Mikuni is close to a 140 Dynojet. I figured this out when jetting my carb on my Z400 when I put in an intake cam and high compression piston.

Anyways, it might be that the problem in (1) is related to the 'fix' in (2).

I temporarily fixed the backfire problem by properly adjusting the idle mixture screw and touching nothing else.  Ended up around 1.5 turns out (was 1/16th out from the factory, how bout THAT EPA crap...).  I will rejet in the spring with a K&N/Supertrapp/Dynojet kit.
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Re: Removed the white spacer, what else?
Reply #14 - 10/24/04 at 05:52:01
 
rkutzner wrote on 12/31/69 at 16:00:10:
Guys, I really don't want to start something here as I am new to this forum and my 'Savage' S40 Grin.  But I am NOT new to these carbs and engines and have two points of concern for you to consider:

1. If the idle mixture screw is all the way in then there is a problem with another circuit in your carb (or your pilot jet is too big but most folks and jet kits don't touch this).  Your mixture screw should be out around 1 - 2 turns.

2. Taking out that white spacer without AT LEAST replacing it with a thinner washer is a HACK JOB.  If you are willing to adjust your needle, get a Dynojet kit (is there any other out there?) and use the adjustments on that to do it right.  Also, if adjusting a bike with a kit already installed, be aware that Dynojets main jet sizes do NOT correspond to Mikuni's sizes.  I would guess that a 150 Mikuni is close to a 140 Dynojet. I figured this out when jetting my carb on my Z400 when I put in an intake cam and high compression piston.

Anyways, it might be that the problem in (1) is related to the 'fix' in (2).

I temporarily fixed the backfire problem by properly adjusting the idle mixture screw and touching nothing else.  Ended up around 1.5 turns out (was 1/16th out from the factory, how bout THAT EPA crap...).  I will rejet in the spring with a K&N/Supertrapp/Dynojet kit.


All that I can say here is AMEN.

The idle mixture screw is not a mystery with the exception that the EPA caused it to be hidden on newer bikes.  Just turn it in clockwise until it sputters and back it out until it runs the best.  Leave it there.  Done.

Just removing the spacer is a hack job.  This has been dicussed in many topics that have disappeared on previous pages (maybe still searchable).  Just removing the spacer without any knowledge about the taper in the jet needle or the corresponding needle jet...is essentially just richening the entire first 1/2 throttle range blindly.  It also makes your closed throttle decel too rich.  I found a plastic spacer about 1/2 thickness and others have used thinner washers or o-rings.  Basically there is more to jetting then just the idle mixture or the needle, and as you say, there are other metering circuits in the carb too.

Dynojet kits are the way to go, if wrenching and experimentation are not your personal choice.  In my case, I use a wrench and buy individual jets, and to get rid of backfires with a stock exhaust it takes more that just removing a spacer and adjusting the idle...you have to consider the main jet too.

As you say the Dynojet kits have their own jet size designations...it would take gage pins to determine the corresponding Mikuni sizes....and I just finsihed explaining the Mikuni sizes in another topic.  If you have a stock exhaust, put a thinner spacer on the needle and get 150 main jet.  You'll see a real change in backfires, plus gain a little more mid-range grunt when you are rolling through the twisties,...mid-range is where the main jet starts working anyway.
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