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Inspecting Transmission Gears (Read 184 times)
justin_o_guy2
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Re: Inspecting Transmission Gears
Reply #15 - 12/11/22 at 13:12:09
 
The ad just popped up. IDK hoot about the quality.

https://qiihong.com/products/usb-endoscope?utm_source=taboola&utm_medium=refe...

But the price is right
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verslagen1
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Re: Inspecting Transmission Gears
Reply #16 - 12/11/22 at 14:40:58
 
My BIL just got me a inskam (only brand name I can find)
It has 1600x1200 resolution with a 8mm cammera.
The good thing about it is that it has a wifi/bluetooth adapter so you can port it to whatever you got.
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TheSneeze
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Re: Inspecting Transmission Gears
Reply #17 - 12/11/22 at 18:12:29
 
I bought an endoscope for my cell phone when I had to clean the inside of my KZ750 fuel tank.  I haven't used it in a while, so I can't give specs on right now.  I haven't been in my shop for a week - been down with a nasty case of the flu.  When I get back out there in a few days I will report back the specs on which one I got.  Mine works well.

I had already made the decision for my hot rod motor to stay with a stock flywheel.  Looks like it may have been the safer choice.
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Armen
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Re: Inspecting Transmission Gears
Reply #18 - 12/11/22 at 19:30:00
 
Hey Mike,
As always, thanks for the info.
I bought exactly the same one you talked about. Should have it this week.
No worries about not liking a lite flywheel. Smiley
Wondering if there is a way to increase the oil volume being pumped?
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Gary_in_NJ
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Re: Inspecting Transmission Gears
Reply #19 - 12/12/22 at 12:23:37
 
Mike,

I have wondered about your gear wear issues since you first brought them to light many months ago. I found it strange that it only affected the higher gears and not the lower ones - the ones that typically fail - and then I thought about your test routine.

You generally don't provide 0-60 or 1/4 mile trap speeds - you usually provide roll-on acceleration. This is a very practical test for sure, but it is this testing that may cause your issue with gear wear. While I have never ridden with you, I get a feeling that a typical ride for you includes a lot of WOT applications in high gear.

When the engineers were designing the gears they did so for an engine that made ~30-40 lb-ft of torque. You have well exceeded this and there is a very good change that the Rockwell number used in the material just isn't correct for your application. I'm sure you have exceeded any margin that was built into the design.

You may find alternative gears (and ratios) by looking at Suzuki's vast parts database. Or, you may be able to lessen the impact of gear wear by limiting the high gear roll-ons to testing only.
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DragBikeMike
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Re: Inspecting Transmission Gears
Reply #20 - 12/12/22 at 13:22:22
 
Hey Armen, yes I have considered increasing oil volume.  I have a bunch of the stock pumps and I have been looking at stacking up pumps.  Make a longer shaft and then stack an additional pump onto the original.

I wasn't considering pumping more oil through the stock circuit.  I was thinking I could fabricate some internal piping and use the discharge off the second gerotor to spray oil directly on to the overdrive gears (4th & 5th).  Like right into the mesh between the input and output gears.

More oil through the stock system does not look like it would be of any benefit.  The gears are not dip lubricated.  The gear mesh gets all of its lubrication from oil thrown off the rod.  The rod on the Savage is not in alignment with 4th or 5th gear.  So, I would be just pumping more oil into the sump.  Probably would overwhelm the oil control rings too.

This picture shows the problem.  The oil is thrown off the rod as shown by the green arrows.  The orange circle is around 5th gear and the yellow circle is around 4th gear.  Looks like 5th gear really gets the short end of the stick, but 4th ain't much better.
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Rod_Alignment_4th__5th_No_Good.jpg

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Armen
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Re: Inspecting Transmission Gears
Reply #21 - 12/12/22 at 13:31:15
 
Hmm
Oil is being fed through the trans shafts, right? And there is a restrictor on the right side of the case. Assuming the oil goes thru the shafts, then ends up on the gear surfaces by way of being splashed all over.
Or am I missing something?
Maybe increase the volume and remove the restrictor?
Might also help the top end oiling problems.
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DragBikeMike
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Re: Inspecting Transmission Gears
Reply #22 - 12/12/22 at 13:54:14
 
Hey Gary, my sentiments exactly.  The gear spalling is confined to the overdrive gears (4th & 5th), and I have been doing a lot of WOT testing using those gears (especially 5th).  Those tests subject the gear teeth to the maximum load since the wind resistance is highest under those conditions.  It's an exponential function so the stock design fades fast as the speed goes up.  I'm makin a lot more power than stock.  To add insult to injury, the overdrive input gears rotate at the highest pitch circle velocity, so centrifugal force is throwing oil off as fast as it can be applied.  Failure seems inevitable.

One issue I have a little trouble with is 4th gear.  That particular gear is not part of my test regimen.  To be sure, I do hit 4th pretty hard sometimes, but it's not a regular part of my testing.  The pitting occurred on two different transmissions.  The first failure (5th gear) was on my original stock bottom end.  I pretty much know everything that gear set was subjected to.  The second failure (4th gear) was on my spare engine.  While I have beat that baby up pretty good, I have no idea what the prior owner did to it.

The gears that failed are between 45 and 50 HRC.  I checked them with some special files.  Pretty neat tool.  My reference material on gears indicates typical hardness of 47 HRC.  That's not to say that a set with the hardness up around 50 to 55 wouldn't be better, it just indicates that the hardness is typical for a mass-produced gear.  One interesting feature is some of the gears look ground, and some are clearly hobbed.  A smoother finish would be better so would be nice if they were all ground.  The 4-speed set that I'm running now is about 10% wider so that should reduce the contact pressure a bit.

From a practical perspective, I think it would be best to try and achieve reasonable durability without investing a ton of money.  I want to learn new things for sure, but having custom gear sets manufactured would simply be too expensive.  So I'm gonna see what I can accomplish using junk eBay parts and Yankee ingenuity.

I want to try and run the drain oil off the cylinder head onto top gear (4th on a 4-speed, 5th on a 5-speed).  Maybe even possibly onto 4th gear on a 5-speed.  That won't take any lubrication away from any other components.  

This is a picture of those files.  I also want to try and make a rebound tester.  It's kind of a bouncing ball contraption.  More info is always better.  BTW, the button says "Choose File", I love it.
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Hardness_Files.jpg

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DragBikeMike
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Re: Inspecting Transmission Gears
Reply #23 - 12/12/22 at 14:04:23
 
Armen, I think the oil being pushed through the trans shafts is to lubricate the gears that idle on the shaft (un-splined), and to lubricate the clutch basket bushing.  I really doubt that much, if any, finds its way to the mesh.  It's just gonna run up the side of the gear and end up in the sump.  I could be wrong on this but seems logical to me.

You might have something on that orifice though.  If I doubled up the pumps and ran all the output through the stock circuit sans the orifice it might find it's way to the problem areas.  If the oil pressure remained right about where it is now, it would indicate that all the excess was going to the trans and clutch.  Hmmmmm!

What do you think about using drain oil off the cylinder head?
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TheSneeze
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Re: Inspecting Transmission Gears
Reply #24 - 12/12/22 at 14:07:43
 
The endoscope I bought is a Nidage brand.  Here is the spec sheet.  It works very well, and has great resolution with some patience applied.  Yes, you can get blurry images if you are not careful
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Armen
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Re: Inspecting Transmission Gears
Reply #25 - 12/12/22 at 14:09:43
 
Honda blew up a gazillion V-4 motors in the early 80s. They lubed the top end with low pressure, dirty oil from the gearbox. A few band aid fixes were around, but the only real fix was a complete redesign of the motor, giving clean, cool oil to the valve train.
Don’t think I’d use oil after it went North.
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Armen
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Re: Inspecting Transmission Gears
Reply #26 - 12/12/22 at 14:18:30
 
Mike,
I can’t tell exactly from the parts blow-up, but it seems that 5th gears are on bushings. If I’m reading it right, they get driven by their adjacent gears-in this case 4th gear. So, power travels thru the 4th gear set, then gets transferred thru dogs to one of the 5th gears.
So, load on 4th gear teeth as well as 5th.
Or, am I looking at it wrong?
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Armen
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Re: Inspecting Transmission Gears
Reply #27 - 12/12/22 at 14:35:58
 
Scratch the gear wear theory. I looked again, and my previous guesses don’t hold water (4th/5th).
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DragBikeMike
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Re: Inspecting Transmission Gears
Reply #28 - 12/13/22 at 09:29:45
 
Armen, I can understand why you wouldn't want to use low pressure, unfiltered oil from the sump to lube the top end (cam, rockers, valves, etc.), but a typical manual transmission lives in a slurry of ground up shift dogs, syncro trash, and gear tooth debris.  The dip lube units seem to hold up OK and that oil is straight out of the slop bin.  I've never seen a manual trans with a filter.  Granted, the oil our transmission currently receives has been through a filter, but it still contains wear products off the rod bearing, and I suspect it's also mixed in with sump oil that's splashing all around.  I don't get your aversion to using drain oil off the top end.  I'm sure it will contain wear products, but I doubt they will be much worse than what's already goin through the mesh.

I was planning to run the drain oil through a simple cooler device and locate neodymium magnets in the cooler to trap ferrous wear products.

After thinkin a bit about stacking pumps and running the discharge through the stock circuit, it dawned on me that the filter probably won't be able to handle all the flow.  At best, the bypass relief will lift, at worst the filter will collapse.  That would be a very complicated modification.  I wonder if the drive gear could handle twice the load.
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Armen
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Re: Inspecting Transmission Gears
Reply #29 - 12/13/22 at 09:59:04
 
Hey Mike,
Do you have a pic of a stock oil filter internals?
Thanks
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