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Wiseco Flat Top Piston - Installation & Test (Read 1031 times)
DragBikeMike
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Re: Wiseco Flat Top Piston - Installation & Test
Reply #210 - 10/21/22 at 19:58:34
 
JOG, thanks for the tip on the Stone Coat.  I'll look into it.  I doubt that I will switch from the JB Weld High Heat putty.  I'm having excellent results with it, and because it's a two-part log the consistency is perfect for the initial application into the port.  I would be very reluctant to put any sort of metallic reinforcement into the epoxy.  If piano wire or stainless mesh got loose and went through the valves it would be horrific.

Thanks for refreshing my memory Sneezy.  Sure wish you had told me that your gearset was installed in a maximum effort motor that had been run on a flat track for an entire race season.  

I spent a couple of hours putting around on the 4-speed this morning.  I'll get used to it.  It actually shifts better than the 5-speed.  But the absence of the extra gear keeps me wishin it was still there.  I guess I got spoiled.  One nice feature is I always know when I'm in top gear.  With the 5-speed, I was always checkin to make sure I was in top gear.

C'mon gang.  I know there must be some of you with engines on the deckplates all opened up.  Take a peek in there and see if ya gots any pits in them gears.
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justin_o_guy2
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Re: Wiseco Flat Top Piston - Installation & Test
Reply #211 - 10/21/22 at 20:46:09
 
If piano wire or stainless mesh got loose and went through the valves it would be horrific.

Well, yess indeedee it would.
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Re: Wiseco Flat Top Piston - Installation & Test
Reply #212 - 10/23/22 at 16:45:01
 
Aweseome posts and I will read through a few times.

I am pulling out my 87 engine today as I have some noise and aluminium in the filter.
I have decided not to sell it and keep it for another couple of years. I am going to buy Lancers stage 3 cam if the 2 way shipping cost isn't going to make it too expensive.
I am going to go up to a 97mm Wiseco as I have found a few people with them here in Australia for sale.
Will need to inspect the top end and valves for wear and decide what else I need to replace to freshen up this motor. It currently has the stock carb with 155 and 55 jets, straight pipe and a cone filter.

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DragBikeMike
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Re: Wiseco Flat Top Piston - Installation & Test
Reply #213 - 11/13/22 at 17:29:32
 
After my last post on 10/21/22, I moved on to my next project, the Big Bore 4-Speed.  That engine is in the bike now and I’ve been breaking it in.  It runs good.  Hope the 4-Speed gears can hack the mission.  In between rides, I’ve been tearing down this 94mm flat-top engine and have noted a few things that should be of interest.

I mentioned that my compression pressure had dropped to about 205 psi.  Although the engine ran perfect, was quiet, and had loads of power, the oil consumption was high.  The high oil consumption and reduced compression pressure warranted a closer look at the rings and piston.  I had already checked the valves and they weren’t leaking.

I noticed that on the exhaust side of the piston there appeared to be carbon tracks from ring blowby.  See the carbon between the 2nd groove and the oil control groove.  I’ve never paid much attention to this before.  Looks like a very informative inspection point.  I’m gonna start lookin at this area in the future.
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DragBikeMike
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Re: Wiseco Flat Top Piston - Installation & Test
Reply #214 - 11/13/22 at 17:30:18
 
The rear side of the piston isn’t as bad as the front.  Only trace amounts of carbon accumulation below the 2nd ring groove.
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Re: Wiseco Flat Top Piston - Installation & Test
Reply #215 - 11/13/22 at 17:31:01
 
I reviewed my old files and noted that at the 2250 mile teardown there was zero evidence of blowby on the front of the piston.  So, the blowby problem developed as the miles racked up, or possibly I managed to bugger up a ring when I reinstalled the jug.  However, visual inspection of the rings didn’t reveal any sort of damage.

Here’s what things looked like at 2250 miles.  Clean, no blowby.
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Re: Wiseco Flat Top Piston - Installation & Test
Reply #216 - 11/13/22 at 17:32:16
 
I checked the ring free gap.  Both the top ring and the 2nd ring had free gaps right at 11mm.    The factory wear limit is 9mm & 11mm respectively (note: bigger is better), but that’s for factory rings.  Comparing the used Wiseco rings to new Wiseco rings seemed prudent.  I have a set of brand-new rings and the free gaps were 12mm & 13mm.  The old rings didn’t seem too far off the mark.
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Re: Wiseco Flat Top Piston - Installation & Test
Reply #217 - 11/13/22 at 17:32:57
 
Ring end gaps were .026” for the top ring, and .029” for the second ring.  When I originally gapped the rings, the gaps were .024” and .028” respectively.  So, there wasn’t much wear.
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Re: Wiseco Flat Top Piston - Installation & Test
Reply #218 - 11/13/22 at 17:33:40
 
I had measured the piston and compared it to the detailed drawing.  The detailed drawing specifies 3.6985”, and the piston measured 3.6985”.  I slipped the piston into the cylinder and checked clearance with a feeler gage (quick & dirty).  It was .005”.  That seemed like a lot.
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Re: Wiseco Flat Top Piston - Installation & Test
Reply #219 - 11/13/22 at 17:34:34
 
I reviewed my assembly notes and the notes said that the piston was 3.7005” when I installed it, and the clearance was “a loose .003””.  Hmmmmm?  That explains the additional .002” clearance, but I’m confused regarding the piston size.  Is it possible that the drawing spec of 3.6985” is a target dimension?  Sort of like a desired diameter after the sharp tool points are worn off.  IDK.  All I can do is speculate.  I don’t think I was careless with my measuring at initial assembly.  Probably would have been good if I had dug into this at the initial teardown (2250 miles).  The .005” clearance isn’t conducive to good ring seal.  I’m sure the excessive clearance doesn’t help, but what the heck, it was runnin great when I tore it down.

My notes from 10/27/20 show that I measured the brand-new piston at 3.7005”.  So, the fact that it is now 3.6985” indicates that it must have worn .0020”.  The original installation clearance measurement was a loose .003”, so it looks like skirt-wear to me.  Originally .003”, now .005”, so clearance increased .002”.  Makes sense.  Wiseco drawing WD-12514 specifies a major diameter of 3.6985” which is what I have now, so looks like they might make the slug slightly oversize using a phonographic finish and then intend for about .002” break-in wear.  The crests of the tool marks wear in.  The tool marks hold oil for the break in and also limit friction since only the crests contact the cylinder wall.  If I were to get a brand new piston, I’m bettin it might be about .002” bigger.

Hey Lancer, could you measure one of those new 94mm flat-tops and tell me if it’s 3.7005” or 3.6985”?
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Re: Wiseco Flat Top Piston - Installation & Test
Reply #220 - 11/13/22 at 17:37:39
 
So, the rings looked good, and the valves checked out.  There was no evidence of a head gasket leak.  The only thing I can see that might be the cause of the reduced compression would be the bore and/or the skirt clearance.  Those linear marks probably result in some leakage.  Looks like debris off the gear teeth strikes again.  The piston rocking in the bore most likely results in some leakage too.

Another possibility could be my compression gage.  As of late, I seem to be seeing 200 to 205 psi an awful lot.  I have also noticed that it doesn’t seem to hold solid at the max achieved pressure.  It tends to bleed a bit and then holds.  I need to check out the gage.

This thing was runnin great when I tore it down.  Aside from a bit of oil consumption, all was good.  Power, noise, vibration, temps, pressure were all good.  I’m sure I could have continued to run it for a good long time.  I’ve been reading a lot about gear pitting.  Gears have a tendency to pit in areas where there is heavy contact, and then as the load gets redistributed across the tooth the pitting subsides.  The gear gurus refer to this as “initial pitting”, as opposed to “destructive pitting” (self-explanatory).  My pitting doesn’t look like initial pitting, but who knows.

I have the bottom end completely disassembled.  With the exception of 4th gear, all looks good.  I plan to figure out a way to provide more lubrication to the two top gears (4th & 5th on a 5-speed, or 3rd & 4th on a 4-speed).  That should prove challenging.  While I’m figuring that out, I will continue racking up the miles on the Big Bore 4-speed.  I have a way to monitor the gears for pitting.  If I don’t detect any pitting, I will run it at least 10,000 miles before I tamper with it.  I want to see if the heavier 4-speed gears hold up better than the 5-speed gears.

More to come.
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Re: Wiseco Flat Top Piston - Installation & Test
Reply #221 - 11/13/22 at 18:21:23
 

Hey Lancer, could you measure one of those new 94mm flat-tops and tell me if it’s 3.7005” or 3.6985”?

I measured 3 pistons:
3.6805”
3.6775”
3.6795”
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Re: Wiseco Flat Top Piston - Installation & Test
Reply #222 - 11/13/22 at 22:28:25
 
So, this begs the question-what is your assembly/break in procedure for the piston/rings?
In the 70’s, when Udo Gietl was building F1 and then Superbike BMWs, he ran into all sorts of grief with ring seating. Big ass air-cooled motor.
After a ton of work, he came up with the following routine, which I still use:
After the cylinder is honed (bead hone), thoroughly wash the cylinder with hot soapy water, and dry. Do not put any oil on the cylinder walls, not even WD-40.
Assemble the rings on the pistons, install the piston in the cylinder just up to the bottom of the rings. Put one dot of oil on the piston skirt front and back. Complete assembly.
Use a break-in oil in the motor. Regular amount of oil. Non-synthetic, like the basic Honda oil or the Amsoil break-in oil. 10-40 or thinner.
Put a fan in front of the motor. Start the bike and hold he revs to about 2K. Run for 30 seconds or so until the smoke stops.
Hop on the bike and ride. Not lugging, not redlining. Varying throttle. Do this for at least 100 miles without excessive idling. Once the bike has 300 miles, dump the oil and use your regular oil.
I’ve pulled apart lots of motors that I’ve broken in this way, and always saw almost complete contact/wear on the middle ring, and no blow by past the middle ring. Minimal blow by past the top ring.
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Re: Wiseco Flat Top Piston - Installation & Test
Reply #223 - 11/14/22 at 08:17:06
 
I had my cylinder bored and rings gapped at the shop that did my porting.  He gaged the bore diameter off the piston, and then gapped the rings to the new bore.  I haven't checked any sizes yet to see what clearances he used.  He came from Thumper Racing that specialized in big bore singles.
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Re: Wiseco Flat Top Piston - Installation & Test
Reply #224 - 11/14/22 at 12:03:31
 
Lancer, thanks very much for taking the time to check the piston size.  I think maybe you measured in the wrong location or possibly are misinterpreting your thimble.  The reedings you provided would result in a clearance on the order of .020" (0.5 mm), which is astronomically big.

I measure my piston at a location 1/2" up from the bottom of the skirt, and 90 degrees from the wrist pin bore.  Like this.
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