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Cam chain tension (Read 266 times)
DragBikeMike
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Re: Cam chain tension
Reply #15 - 11/02/19 at 14:03:03
 
The special jack bolt is working OK.  I have it apart right now for the cylinder base gasket repair.  Have 5629 miles on the engine (total), the last 1000 have been with the modified tensioner system.  The jack bolt does not seem to be causing any problems with the rear guide.  No chain stretch with the tensioner set at 1.5 mm free play.

The cylinder grows .025" from about 75 degree ambient to normal ops temp.  I took some direct measurements with the cam dropped .125" that show the tensioner extends 2.7mm for every .025" drop in elevation, so it retracts 2.7mm for every .025" increase in elevation.  The chain thermal expansion is about one-half of the cylinder.  So the relative change in elevation is about .012.  That works out to about 1.3mm changes in tensioner plunger position for a corresponding change in cylinder height.  The 1.5mm plunger play allows just a tad of give.  I set mine up at 1.5 mm based on this data.  Its working OK so far.
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DragBikeMike
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Re: Cam chain tension
Reply #16 - 11/02/19 at 14:06:49
 
You might want to consider manufacturing your own plunger sans rack.  Extend the plunger on the back side rather than the front.  That results in maximum engagement with the tensioner housing.  It adds stability and makes the assembly more robust.
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Armen
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Re: Cam chain tension
Reply #17 - 11/02/19 at 16:00:12
 
Thanks.
I will.
Do you think it's worth making a way to keep it from rotating?
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batman
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Re: Cam chain tension
Reply #18 - 11/02/19 at 16:46:47
 
No matter which end you extend ,the body of the round plunger (cylinder ) will have maximum engagement , the only thing I might add is a tiny hole drilled into the cylinder outboard of the tensioner to relieve any Hydraulic lock,  IF it were to occur ( I don't think it will ,as the tensioner is angled downward , but if tolerances are tight air could be pushed out when it compressed and form a vacuum that may pull oil back in as it extends- at 60 mph the tensioner may have the chance to oscillate at 33.4 times per second ,if spring tension allows.) I used a shorter heavier spring hoping to stop or at least dampen any such movement, and ground a flat on the cylinder in the area of the paw teeth ,for it's full length for the same reason.
   the plunger can't rotate ,it's bolted to the guide.(use Loc-tite)
I found there was one other problem I needed to address ,I pickup a ticking noise (new)  and pull the side cover to find that the tiny clip holding the tensioner base missing ,and the tensioner , trying to move off the stud (it can't), but slightly misaligning the guide. I removed the stock bolt , and using a normal bolt  the same length and 3 nuts to spaced it out from the case and supply a steady base (which a aligned it perfectly to the guide) the body is securely head in place, trapped between the nuts a the hex head of the bolt ,that was about 10,000 miles ago.
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« Last Edit: 11/02/19 at 17:49:56 by batman »  

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Armen
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Re: Cam chain tension
Reply #19 - 11/02/19 at 17:01:19
 
Hmm, sounds like a candidate for 7068 aluminum Smiley
Batman, not sure why you think extending the left end of the plunger won't increase the engagement. Seems like it would to me.
As Dr. Ruth would say "Vat Ve are looking for is maximum penetration!".
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Re: Cam chain tension
Reply #20 - 11/02/19 at 18:38:29
 
Armen ,  what about the spring ? as it also expands inside the longer cylinder it decreases in strength, You're removing the paw ,what you want is a stronger spring but one that still allows a minimum amount of travel ,just enough to not  allow the chain to be stretched. I actually shortened the cylinder ,but it remains totally inside the body of the tensioner and allows me to run a shorter stronger spring. 
     The outer end of my tensioner is threaded and adjustable IF chain stretch occurs I can lengthen it ,returning the cylinder to it's same relative position in the body, and the spring to it original length. If the spring weakens over time I have two replacements ,and my springs have been known to work ,at least for the last 20,000 miles , while you may be in the hunt for a longer or stronger spring. If at some point I decide to change to a new chain I can adjust the length of my tensioner extension and be on my way.
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« Last Edit: 11/03/19 at 07:15:22 by batman »  

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Armen
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Re: Cam chain tension
Reply #21 - 11/05/19 at 08:21:18
 
Thought about a tensioner bolt on the back side of the cylinder. Looked at the cylinder (on the bike) and saw what looked like a tunnel for a cylinder stud. Went down to the dungeon and took a look at one of my other cylinders. The tunnel is for an oil passage. I would want to do at least a 6mm bolt for a tensioner, and that would be pretty tight. So, that means either a 5mm bolt, or running it at an angle.
And the whole are has irregular surfaces. Maybe ok for a cylinder in the milling machine, but not on the bike done with hand tools.
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DragBikeMike
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Re: Cam chain tension
Reply #22 - 11/05/19 at 13:02:37
 
You really have to put the jack-bolt in the head.  There's no oil holes or stud holes in the way.  If you use a 5/16-NF continuously threaded rod, it allows sufficient material to install a steel insert so the jack bolt will run in steel rather than aluminum (the aluminum wall is pretty thin in that area).  It works nice.  Of course, its a job reserved for proper tooling, which means a mill, which means engine disassembly.

I'm lovin your approach to the BIG hole in the side of the cylinder.  That's some hard-core poor man's machine shop stuff.  Looks tidy and professional.  Since the nut is flanged, why don't you set it up with two or three #8 socket head cap screws that bear against the flange.  That way, you won't have to rely solely on the epoxy to hold it in place.  Looks to be plenty of room.

It's unclear to me what you expect to see in there.  When you remove the inspection bolt you will see the chain and guide, and I'm sure the chain will be in contact with the guide.  But you won't know where the tensioner plunger is at.  The plunger seems to be the true indicator of impending doom.  An inspection port in way of the plunger seems to be more in order.  Are you planning to establish some sort of reference measurement that establishes the relationship between the guide position at the inspection hole and plunger extension?

I have a new chain, and five old used chains.  When I compare the new chain to the old chains, there is almost no discernable difference in length.  I'm thinkin the problem here is guide wear, not chain wear.  There's even an old post by "Aeres" that talks about a situation where he/she installed a new chain and the plunger still sat too far out.  He/she had to re-bend the rear guide to get the plunger to retract.  I think the guides relax over time, and of course they also wear.

Bucking up the back side of the rear guide maintains the arc.  It works good.  A quick inspection every oil change will tell you where the plunger sits.  If it's out too far, simply screw in the jack-bolt a turn or two and your back in business.  It even works with my head dropped .125".  That's a bunch.  If it works OK under that condition, it will work fabulous with things in the stock position.
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Re: Cam chain tension
Reply #23 - 11/06/19 at 05:14:15
 
DBM,
Thanks for the hint on the tensioner bolt location. Point of the hole was to see how much chain slack there is when the motor warms up. I'll unscrew the plug and lever back against the guide to see if there is any slack when the motor is hot. Since I'm setting up the tensioner without the pawl and a rod internally to limit travel, I want to know that I'm not overdoing the tension.
So, this setup will help me determine how much initial slack to set the tensioner up with.
If I decide to do this on the 695 top end, that cylinder will get modified in a mill and be a little less agricultural.
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Re: Cam chain tension
Reply #24 - 11/06/19 at 21:06:46
 
Let the JB Weld set for  a few days, then chased out the threads.
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Re: Cam chain tension
Reply #25 - 11/06/19 at 21:08:17
 
All together now!
Have to chisel off some errant JB jiz.
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