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rear brake/hi speed turns (Read 154 times)
oldNslow
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rear brake/hi speed turns
04/12/18 at 07:50:14
 
I thought this was pretty interesting. Not a technique for mere mortals I don't think.

https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/opinion/motogp/ducatis-cornering-tool-pres...
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Re: rear brake/hi speed turns
Reply #1 - 04/12/18 at 08:38:03
 
I know of a OldFeller who uses his brakes to "Slip into the turns" . I'm to stingy with my brake pad material to waste them like that .

I have had the foot begs numb get into the pavement and then the rear tire leaves the ground for a short spell followed by the rear end having a better angle on pointing out of the curve .   Yea , if ya don't keep the weight down low everything wants to "High Side" with the tire and road coming back together ...  Tongue


Seems like a little less taction on the rear tire could be a good thing if your bike is light enough to manhandle .
I've seen dirt bike riders using this method !

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Re: rear brake/hi speed turns
Reply #2 - 04/12/18 at 08:56:37
 
This article gives me the willies to read......as all those GP bikes have professional riders and very sophisticated traction control and anti-lock brake computers...and tires that appears to be made from glue!

For us mortals, using anything but a light touch on the rear brake pedal in the middle of a corner is likely to get you in trouble really quickly.  Anybody that has locked up the rear brake knows that your directional control disappears immediately as the rear tires slips, and in a corner the back wheel will instantly slide to the outside....and you will go down in a hurry.  (That doesn't mean that you can't ever brake while leaned over in a corner - but doing so while exploring the cornering limits is not going to end well).

And yes......some really good riders can use the rear brake to slide and change direction - watch videos of the SuperMoto riders and it appears they have perfected the art.

Please.........be careful about how/when you use brakes, and ride within your limits!
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Re: rear brake/hi speed turns
Reply #3 - 04/12/18 at 17:03:18
 
https://binged.it/2GU7Zgp

https://youtu.be/uCbH4KKfT20   Super Moto's on a Dragon style Rocky Mountain road !  Smiley




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Re: rear brake/hi speed turns
Reply #4 - 04/12/18 at 18:38:12
 
Not that.......this kind of braking/steering!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUNvnU5rFPc

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Re: rear brake/hi speed turns
Reply #5 - 04/12/18 at 20:46:47
 
Dang  Dave , if that feller would only turn the handle bar "Left till the wheel touched down that bike would stand itself back up !  Wink

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Re: rear brake/hi speed turns
Reply #6 - 04/13/18 at 03:03:28
 
MM:

Want to buy a couple of KTM 390's so we can annoy and irritate Oldfeller on the group rides? Wink
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Re: rear brake/hi speed turns
Reply #7 - 04/13/18 at 06:48:50
 
Not sure how I want to reply to this. I'll just start typing and see where it goes...

In order for a bike to achieve 100% of available breaking force, both the front and rear brake need to be deployed. But when is 100% breaking required? Not too often. In fact most run-of-the-mill stops only require 10-30% of available breaking and most "holy crap" stops only require 60-80% of available braking force. As luck would have it, the front brake can supply about 80% of available braking.

Think of it this way, you're 100 feet from a stop light/sign, and you apply the front brake only, you easily come to rest at the desired point - right on the line. Same situation, only this time you decide to apply both brakes. You still stop in the same intended location - right on the line. The rear brake added no value.

But what about a panic stop? We'll get to that, but let's first discuss the potential pit falls of the rear brake AS IT RELATES TO THE LS650 / S40.

There are two types of brakes used on motorcycles, disc and drum. Drum brakes disappeared as front brakes in the 1970's but saw continued use as rear brakes into the 80's. Only budget bikes carried on with rear drum brakes into the 1990's. Drum brakes have many limitations. From a performance perspective drum brakes fade quickly, provide inconstant performance (especially in the wet) and are prone to lock-up when heated quickly (like a panic situation).

In a nut shell, that is why I often recommend on this forum that a rear brake not be used; the rear brake in a high stress environment can lead to more problems. In a straight line with maximum effort being applied to the front brake, locking up the rear brake can cause the the rear of the bike to slide to to the left or right and potentially induce a loss of control. In a turn, locking up the rear brake can result in a high-side get-off.

In my opinion, in a situation where maximum braking is required the best brake technique is to apply maximum braking force to the front brake and then add rear brake as needed, modulating force to keep the rear tire from locking up.

Back to the original post by oldNslow. On the dirt, especially on a track, I will often use the rear brake to "back into" a turn. The technique is too apply to front brake to achieve the desired turn speed, and then transition to the rear brake to begin a side. Once the rear begins to rotate/slide out it's time to apply throttle to power out of the turn. This exact technique is used in supermoto.

In my opinion this technique is fraught with danger on public roads. If you are riding where you NEED to back into a turn, you are riding in an unsafe manor. Now, there are times when I may WANT to back into a turn, but usually it would be done at a slow speed where recovery from a high-side is all but assured. I probably haven't done this on the street in 20 years because I realized it quickly destroys tires. With that said, my DRZ Street Tracker is begging me to back it in from time to time. We'll see...I hate replacing tires.
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Re: rear brake/hi speed turns
Reply #8 - 04/13/18 at 12:44:09
 
Well said Gary in NJ, praticularly given the S40/Savage tendency to lock the rear brake. if any force is applied to the pedal. Note the other post about thumb brakes, they don't apply the same force as a pedal.
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Re: rear brake/hi speed turns
Reply #9 - 04/13/18 at 19:59:33
 
Both the initial post.....and the Motard post are professional riders, on tracks, with warm race tires.  I most certainly agree that none of those methods belong on public roads.  I have never ridden a motorcycle with race tires - but I have autocrossed and driven a Nascar around the Kentucky Speedway with them....it is absolutely amazing how sticky they are, and how forgiving they are when they are pushed to the limits....they begin to slide gradually - they don't break loose suddenly like street tires.

None of this stuff really applies to any of us......but it is fun to read about and watch the pros who are busy perfecting their craft.




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Re: rear brake/hi speed turns
Reply #10 - 04/14/18 at 04:43:26
 
Dave wrote on 04/13/18 at 03:03:28:
MM:

Want to buy a couple of KTM 390's so we can annoy and irritate Oldfeller on the group rides? Wink



Yes, picking you up off the ground and bandaging up your leaks does tend to get kinda irritating when you have to do it unnecessarily.

Do you realize how much of this action I have actually had to do, over the years?   Now you want to go buy bikes DESIGNED SPECIFICALLY to go wreck your arms & elbows and legs & knees.   Not your best idea, guys.   Puts us back in the era where I rode in a follow truck so I could pick up the wounded bikes and riders.

BTW, them hooligan KTM 390s are not very comfortable to ride for any distance.   You got to stay in the rev band to get the advertised power levels and that means shift shift shift shift all the time.

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oldNslow
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Re: rear brake/hi speed turns
Reply #11 - 04/14/18 at 06:27:04
 
Dave wrote:

Quote:
None of this stuff really applies to any of us......but it is fun to read about and watch the pros who are busy perfecting their craft.


Exactly. I certainly am not advocating that anyone install a thumb brake on a Savage and try to imitate a MotoGp rider. There is a reason that the top four or five MotoGp guys are nicknamed "The Aliens" They ride motorcycles at a completely different level from normal humans.

I have ridden motorcycles since I was a teenager, and even did a bit of racing in my younger days. The things that the top riders in almost any motorcycle racing discipline do, the bikes they do those things on, and the speeds that thy do it at, astonish and fascinate me.

MotoGP racing is beautiful to watch in slow motion. But the riders in videos like this one are doing this stuff at speeds between 100 and 200+ mph.

https://youtu.be/WYe7Ap8G5uU




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Re: rear brake/hi speed turns
Reply #12 - 04/14/18 at 07:52:12
 
 BTW, them hooligan KTM 390s are not very comfortable to ride for any distance.  

That , and I'd have to buy "Matching Leathers"  Grin

.......................

entertaining thought , it would be fun the first 30 minutes !    Roll Eyes

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Re: rear brake/hi speed turns
Reply #13 - 04/15/18 at 16:22:52
 
Kevin Schwantz, the legendary road racer among other types, who has a road racing school at Barbers said he always recommended for folks to use the front brake only when on the road unless you were pulling over and slowing coming to a stop to keep the rear wheel breaking loose.
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Re: rear brake/hi speed turns
Reply #14 - 04/15/18 at 17:15:08
 
I'm fairly new to riding so I am still do the learning one does after doing the training.

I've been in the habit of applying both brakes when stopping - estimating 80:20 - Front:Rear. This is what I was taught by my instructor, as a general rule.

Last week I entered a suburban roundabout. The speed limit on that road is 60 kms/hr, so I was doing whatever speed is appropriate for entering the roundabout.

The driver entering the roundabout from my left (I had right-of-way) completely ignored the fact I was approaching. I had to brake suddenly - a low speed emergency stop.

The rear wheel locked up (at low speed) and the back of the bike came around a bit to the left. Luckily I was able to keep it upright, and came to a standing stop. I was really surprised how easily that rear wheel locked up.

Thanks for the tips guys Smiley
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