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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> The Cafe >> rear brake/hi speed turns /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1523544614 Message started by oldNslow on 04/12/18 at 07:50:14 |
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Title: rear brake/hi speed turns Post by oldNslow on 04/12/18 at 07:50:14 I thought this was pretty interesting. Not a technique for mere mortals I don't think. https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/opinion/motogp/ducatis-cornering-tool-press-turn |
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Title: Re: rear brake/hi speed turns Post by MMRanch on 04/12/18 at 08:38:03 I know of a OldFeller who uses his brakes to "Slip into the turns" . I'm to stingy with my brake pad material to waste them like that . I have had the foot begs numb get into the pavement and then the rear tire leaves the ground for a short spell followed by the rear end having a better angle on pointing out of the curve . Yea , if ya don't keep the weight down low everything wants to "High Side" with the tire and road coming back together ... :P Seems like a little less taction on the rear tire could be a good thing if your bike is light enough to manhandle . I've seen dirt bike riders using this method ! |
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Title: Re: rear brake/hi speed turns Post by Dave on 04/12/18 at 08:56:37 This article gives me the willies to read......as all those GP bikes have professional riders and very sophisticated traction control and anti-lock brake computers...and tires that appears to be made from glue! For us mortals, using anything but a light touch on the rear brake pedal in the middle of a corner is likely to get you in trouble really quickly. Anybody that has locked up the rear brake knows that your directional control disappears immediately as the rear tires slips, and in a corner the back wheel will instantly slide to the outside....and you will go down in a hurry. (That doesn't mean that you can't ever brake while leaned over in a corner - but doing so while exploring the cornering limits is not going to end well). And yes......some really good riders can use the rear brake to slide and change direction - watch videos of the SuperMoto riders and it appears they have perfected the art. Please.........be careful about how/when you use brakes, and ride within your limits! |
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Title: Re: rear brake/hi speed turns Post by MMRanch on 04/12/18 at 17:03:18 https://binged.it/2GU7Zgp https://youtu.be/uCbH4KKfT20 Super Moto's on a Dragon style Rocky Mountain road ! :) |
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Title: Re: rear brake/hi speed turns Post by Dave on 04/12/18 at 18:38:12 Not that.......this kind of braking/steering! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUNvnU5rFPc [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUNvnU5rFPc[/media] |
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Title: Re: rear brake/hi speed turns Post by MMRanch on 04/12/18 at 20:46:47 Dang Dave , if that feller would only turn the handle bar "Left till the wheel touched down that bike would stand itself back up ! ;) |
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Title: Re: rear brake/hi speed turns Post by Dave on 04/13/18 at 03:03:28 MM: Want to buy a couple of KTM 390's so we can annoy and irritate Oldfeller on the group rides? ;) |
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Title: Re: rear brake/hi speed turns Post by Gary_in_NJ on 04/13/18 at 06:48:50 Not sure how I want to reply to this. I'll just start typing and see where it goes... In order for a bike to achieve 100% of available breaking force, both the front and rear brake need to be deployed. But when is 100% breaking required? Not too often. In fact most run-of-the-mill stops only require 10-30% of available breaking and most "holy crap" stops only require 60-80% of available braking force. As luck would have it, the front brake can supply about 80% of available braking. Think of it this way, you're 100 feet from a stop light/sign, and you apply the front brake only, you easily come to rest at the desired point - right on the line. Same situation, only this time you decide to apply both brakes. You still stop in the same intended location - right on the line. The rear brake added no value. But what about a panic stop? We'll get to that, but let's first discuss the potential pit falls of the rear brake AS IT RELATES TO THE LS650 / S40. There are two types of brakes used on motorcycles, disc and drum. Drum brakes disappeared as front brakes in the 1970's but saw continued use as rear brakes into the 80's. Only budget bikes carried on with rear drum brakes into the 1990's. Drum brakes have many limitations. From a performance perspective drum brakes fade quickly, provide inconstant performance (especially in the wet) and are prone to lock-up when heated quickly (like a panic situation). In a nut shell, that is why I often recommend on this forum that a rear brake not be used; the rear brake in a high stress environment can lead to more problems. In a straight line with maximum effort being applied to the front brake, locking up the rear brake can cause the the rear of the bike to slide to to the left or right and potentially induce a loss of control. In a turn, locking up the rear brake can result in a high-side get-off. In my opinion, in a situation where maximum braking is required the best brake technique is to apply maximum braking force to the front brake and then add rear brake as needed, modulating force to keep the rear tire from locking up. Back to the original post by oldNslow. On the dirt, especially on a track, I will often use the rear brake to "back into" a turn. The technique is too apply to front brake to achieve the desired turn speed, and then transition to the rear brake to begin a side. Once the rear begins to rotate/slide out it's time to apply throttle to power out of the turn. This exact technique is used in supermoto. In my opinion this technique is fraught with danger on public roads. If you are riding where you NEED to back into a turn, you are riding in an unsafe manor. Now, there are times when I may WANT to back into a turn, but usually it would be done at a slow speed where recovery from a high-side is all but assured. I probably haven't done this on the street in 20 years because I realized it quickly destroys tires. With that said, my DRZ Street Tracker is begging me to back it in from time to time. We'll see...I hate replacing tires. |
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Title: Re: rear brake/hi speed turns Post by jcstokes on 04/13/18 at 12:44:09 Well said Gary in NJ, praticularly given the S40/Savage tendency to lock the rear brake. if any force is applied to the pedal. Note the other post about thumb brakes, they don't apply the same force as a pedal. |
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Title: Re: rear brake/hi speed turns Post by Dave on 04/13/18 at 19:59:33 Both the initial post.....and the Motard post are professional riders, on tracks, with warm race tires. I most certainly agree that none of those methods belong on public roads. I have never ridden a motorcycle with race tires - but I have autocrossed and driven a Nascar around the Kentucky Speedway with them....it is absolutely amazing how sticky they are, and how forgiving they are when they are pushed to the limits....they begin to slide gradually - they don't break loose suddenly like street tires. None of this stuff really applies to any of us......but it is fun to read about and watch the pros who are busy perfecting their craft. |
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Title: Re: rear brake/hi speed turns Post by Oldfeller on 04/14/18 at 04:43:26 12292433222E353328202D32410 wrote:
Yes, picking you up off the ground and bandaging up your leaks does tend to get kinda irritating when you have to do it unnecessarily. Do you realize how much of this action I have actually had to do, over the years? Now you want to go buy bikes DESIGNED SPECIFICALLY to go wreck your arms & elbows and legs & knees. Not your best idea, guys. Puts us back in the era where I rode in a follow truck so I could pick up the wounded bikes and riders. BTW, them hooligan KTM 390s are not very comfortable to ride for any distance. You got to stay in the rev band to get the advertised power levels and that means shift shift shift shift all the time. |
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Title: Re: rear brake/hi speed turns Post by oldNslow on 04/14/18 at 06:27:04 Dave wrote: Quote:
Exactly. I certainly am not advocating that anyone install a thumb brake on a Savage and try to imitate a MotoGp rider. There is a reason that the top four or five MotoGp guys are nicknamed "The Aliens" They ride motorcycles at a completely different level from normal humans. I have ridden motorcycles since I was a teenager, and even did a bit of racing in my younger days. The things that the top riders in almost any motorcycle racing discipline do, the bikes they do those things on, and the speeds that thy do it at, astonish and fascinate me. MotoGP racing is beautiful to watch in slow motion. But the riders in videos like this one are doing this stuff at speeds between 100 and 200+ mph. https://youtu.be/WYe7Ap8G5uU |
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Title: Re: rear brake/hi speed turns Post by MMRanch on 04/14/18 at 07:52:12 BTW, them hooligan KTM 390s are not very comfortable to ride for any distance. That , and I'd have to buy "Matching Leathers" ;D ....................... entertaining thought , it would be fun the first 30 minutes ! ::) Remember , I'm the guy who put a "Road-Glide" seat and Full size Floorboards on my Savage ! ;) |
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Title: Re: rear brake/hi speed turns Post by LANCER on 04/15/18 at 16:22:52 Kevin Schwantz, the legendary road racer among other types, who has a road racing school at Barbers said he always recommended for folks to use the front brake only when on the road unless you were pulling over and slowing coming to a stop to keep the rear wheel breaking loose. |
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Title: Re: rear brake/hi speed turns Post by IslandRoad on 04/15/18 at 17:15:08 I'm fairly new to riding so I am still do the learning one does after doing the training. I've been in the habit of applying both brakes when stopping - estimating 80:20 - Front:Rear. This is what I was taught by my instructor, as a general rule. Last week I entered a suburban roundabout. The speed limit on that road is 60 kms/hr, so I was doing whatever speed is appropriate for entering the roundabout. The driver entering the roundabout from my left (I had right-of-way) completely ignored the fact I was approaching. I had to brake suddenly - a low speed emergency stop. The rear wheel locked up (at low speed) and the back of the bike came around a bit to the left. Luckily I was able to keep it upright, and came to a standing stop. I was really surprised how easily that rear wheel locked up. Thanks for the tips guys :) |
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Title: Re: rear brake/hi speed turns Post by Dave on 04/15/18 at 18:31:15 I do believe that the brake application in motorcycle riding has the potential for 3 different style of braking.....and they correspond to how far you advance. 1) In the beginning, you are learning how to operate the hand throttle, clutch, shifter.....and one or both of the brakes, and how to steer and balance. In the beginning the front wheel brake may not get much attention, as you are either warned not to use it too aggressively - or you have squeezed it too hard and learned the hard way. The finesse that it takes to run both the throttle and the brake lever at the same time may just be too much to learn immediately, and a rider may postpone that to a bit later as they are in the beginning stages (and somewhere in there you have to learn about the turn signals, dimmer switch and horn). 2) As your skill progresses and you became graceful operating the motorcycle - hopefully you have learned to operate the front brake efficiently and safely. You have learned that proper operation of the front brake requires a controlled squeeze - and not a "grab". When a panic situation arises and you need to stop in a hurry your braking isn't "panicked" - and you apply the front brake progressively and add more pressure as the weight shifts forward.....and simultaneously begin to reduce the pressure on the rear brake. Even very aggressive stops can be made without locking up a wheel - and if/when the rear locks up you can instantly release it and avoid running off the road or falling down. 3) Some riders may never reach this third level - but if you become someone that likes to ride aggressively and you ride fast up to the corners and then brake very. very hard - you are going to find that the rear brake can lock up the rear wheel far too easily....and when it does the back of the bike starts to swing to one side. Under extremely hard braking almost all the weight of the bike is on the front wheel - and even the slightest bit of rear brake can result in a skid. (If you have the stock front brake on the Savage - you likely will never be able to brake this hard). I have avoided posting this comment, as I suppose it could be as controversial as a discussion on counter steering - or perhaps get someone in trouble if they haven't yet obtained the skills it takes to use the front brake skillfully. I believe it is something you will learn as your skills improve and you realize you are locking up the rear brake more often as your skill and speed increase. The road racing friends I have told me that they don't use the rear brake when riding aggressively - it took me a few years of chasing Oldfeller and MMRanch around in the mountains and riding the Tail of the Dragon to learn why. (I don't know about Oldfeller - but MM has been telling me for years that he uses the front brake almost exclusively). |
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Title: Re: rear brake/hi speed turns Post by Oldfeller on 04/16/18 at 05:40:16 MM doesn't use his rear brake, it is adjusted so it does not actuate. I use both brakes as I have a lot more mass to slow down. My rear brake can be locked, but it takes a lot to do that as I have "smoothed" my drum surface intentionally to cut down on the aggressive grab rough finish that Suzuki ships the bike with. Front brake is strong, but progressive. Rear brake is strong, but you really have to stomp on it to make the brake lock up. I think we spent too many years showing our butts on curvy mountain roads, it has poisoned my mind for civilian riding. Went for a ride yesterday and found myself cutting 55 mph in a 25 area just to get the boring off of it ..... |
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Title: Re: rear brake/hi speed turns Post by Oldfeller on 04/16/18 at 06:13:31 Dave, how did you do following that oh so slow road captain? |
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Title: Re: rear brake/hi speed turns Post by LANCER on 04/16/18 at 06:49:12 50737B797A73737A6D1F0 wrote:
It happens ;D ;D ;D Of course I wouldn't know this from personal experience, but just what I've heard from others. ::) |
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Title: Re: rear brake/hi speed turns Post by Dave on 04/16/18 at 06:56:28 587B7371727B7B7265170 wrote:
If you are talking about my ride last Friday.....it wasn't all that bad. I was the fifth rider in the group (that is how we pulled out of the parking lot where we met). I could see the first two fellows taking the corners and leaning over really good - while the Goldwing in front of me was slowing down at each corner and then speed up and catch the lead group on the straights. The Road Captain was riding a Suzuki S83 Boulevard, and the 2nd rider was on a BMW F800R, and both bikes had the tires scrubbed right over to some very narrow chicken strips. The Suzuki fellow turns out to be a really cool guy, and a good rider. I found out that he used to be a local racer, and I ask him if he rode Motocross or Hare Scrambles - he told me he raced before that stuff was available om Cincinnati and he rode Flat Track and TT Scrambles for several of the local motorcycle shops. The first two fellows rode very similar to how MM and I ride - they generally comply with the speed limits and don't slow down much for the curves. Since this was my first ride with the group, the new tires on the BMW had less than 100 miles on them, and it was my first long solo ride on the BMW - I didn't have any problem riding at a reduced pace. When I ride with them again.....I am going to jockey into a position nearer to the front. ;) |
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Title: Re: rear brake/hi speed turns Post by MMRanch on 04/16/18 at 20:01:15 Of course I wouldn't know this from personal experience, but just what I've heard from others. No Tickets and No Blood , But DON'T slow down for the curves ... Easy to say ... Sometimes HARD to do ! Lancer , that ride you lead us on the Oaklahoma Skyway was at a "Sprited Pase" ... 8-) I'd be up for that Ride as a yearly thing ! :) |
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