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Another take on United Airlines video (Read 108 times)
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Another take on United Airlines video
04/18/17 at 05:03:23
 
Response from Mike Rowe of Dirty Jobs fame to a question from a viewer. I never thought of it this way but as a frequent flier, I have to agree with Mike. I've been on flights with some real a$$holes who most of the plane wanted to open the door and pitch out. It's a good thing to remember, you are renting that seat; you don't own it.

“I assume you’ve seen the United video. Were you as disturbed as I was? How can a company treat their customers like that and remain in business? I know you fly all the time – what would do if you were the CEO?”

Hi Donna

Like most people, I don’t enjoy seeing passengers dragged down the aisle of a commercial airplane, limp and lifeless. Nor do I enjoy seeing them hogtied at 37,000 feet, (which I’ve also had the occasion to witness – in person – and more than once.)

These kinds of episodes are always disturbing, but what bothered me initially about this video was not just the violence, it was the obvious ease with which it could have been avoided. A little common-sense and the freedom to apply it could have resolved this situation in a dozen different ways. Last night however, I watched a tape of United’s CEO, Oscar Munoz, as he attempted to walk back some earlier comments. He told ABC news that the passenger in question – David Dao - “did nothing wrong.”

Now, I’m no longer disturbed, Donna. I’m merely terrified.

Is Oscar serious? God, I hope not. I hope he’s just doing the typical “over-apology” thing CEO’s do when their “crisis experts” tell them they’ve got to say whatever it takes to win back the public trust. I hope he’s just reacting to some lawyer who told him before the interview, “for the love of God, Oscar, don’t blame the victim!” Well, Oscar certainly didn’t blame the victim. But in the process of finding him blameless, he suggested that millions of passengers are under no obligation to follow a direct command from United employees. And that’s a hell of a lot more disturbing than a beat-down in the main cabin.

Here’s the thing. It’s easy to forget that we have no right to fly. Buying a ticket doesn’t change that. So, when we board the plane, we have no right to remain there. We can be legally removed if we’re too drunk, too loud, too creepy, too suspicious, or too big for the seat. We can be removed if we stink. We can be removed if we’re insubordinate. We can be removed for whatever reason the airline deems necessary.

Obviously, airlines don’t like to remind us of such things, because it makes them sound mean. So they bury the truth in the fine print of a 37,000-word contract, and tell us how much they love us in sappy commercials and mandatory safety briefings that try oh-so-hard to make us smile. But the facts are clear: if you want to travel by air, you must agree to do what you’re told. If you don’t, you subject yourself to fine, arrest, constraint, forcible removal, and/or a permanent ban from the friendly skies. It’s all there in the fine print.

Personally, I support this policy. I support it because I don’t want to fly across the country in a steel tube filled with people who get to decide which rules they will follow and which they will ignore. I’ve been on too many flights with too many angry people to worry about the specific circumstances of their outrage, or the details of why they took it upon themselves to ignore a direct command. A plane is not a democracy, and the main cabin is no place to organize a sit-in. The main cabin is a place to follow orders.

Moving forward, what matters most to me is a heightened respect for the rules, and a heightened respect for the people who enforce them. Obviously, the policies that led to this particular fiasco need to change. But the greatest enemy we face in the friendly skies is not bad service – it’s anarchy. And I have no interest in flying with anyone who doesn’t follow orders. Do you? Does anyone?

Let me say it again. United made a business decision that was unbelievably, incomprehensibly stupid, and now they’re paying for it. (Seriously guys – what did you think was going to happen with two hundred citizen-reporters armed with cameras?) Point is, this is how the market is supposed to work. Their stock is down hundreds of millions of dollars, their customers are flying on other carriers, and according to CNN, they just might be the most hated company in the world today. But that doesn’t mean Dr. Dao “did nothing wrong.” He did. He ignored a direct order from a United representative while sitting on a United plane. He was told to leave and he refused to do so – multiple times by multiple people – all with the proper authority.

Does that mean he deserved a beating? Of course not. But it doesn’t mean he's innocent. Like the airline, Dr. Dao had options. He had recourse. He could have deplaned and pled his case to the gate agent. But he didn’t. He chose resistance. That was dumb. United chose confrontation. That was dumber. Now, here we are. Dumb and Dumber.

As for your question, Donna – if I were Oscar Munoz, I’d take a page from Charlotte McCourt, the 11-year old Girl Scout who became famous on this page for telling the truth about how Girl Scout cookies actually tasted, and then, wound up selling more Girl Scout cookies than anyone else in the world. First, I’d stop apologizing for the way in which that passenger was removed, and start apologizing for being cheap and short-sighted. Then, I’d apologize for valuing rules more than common sense. Then, if United still insists on overbooking future flights, I’d publicly empower my employees to offer any amount of money to entice people off of an over-sold plane. Whatever it takes – no cap, no limit.

But through it all, I’d make darn sure the world understood that passengers on my airline still need to follow the orders given by my people - even if they think those orders are stupid or unfair. And for that, I would make no apology whatsoever.

Finally, let me say to my many friends on the front line of the airline industry – flight attendants, pilots, gate agents, and those of you behind the counter - I appreciate what you do, sincerely, and I understand how difficult things are right now. Your jobs have become increasingly thankless over the years, even as they have become more critical. Thanks for your hard work.

Mike

PS. Oscar – I’ve prepared a new greeting for your pilots to read prior to take-off. I think it captures the kind of transparency many of your customers currently crave. Maybe one day, as I pull my seatbelt low and tight across my hips, I’ll get to hear it…

“Morning folks, and welcome aboard. This is your Captain speaking. I realize you paid a lot of money to rent the seat you’re currently occupying, but let’s be clear right from the get go – you have no right to be here. We’re glad that you are, but I don’t care how much you paid to fly with us today, or what you think you might be entitled to as a result. I’m in charge of this plane, and everyone on it. That includes you. So - if a flight attendant asks you to do something, don’t argue – just do it. We’ll try to make your flight as comfortable as possible, but make no mistake – your comfort is not our priority, and neither is your opinion about the decisions we make during the journey. As for safety, you’ll be pleased to know I have much to live for, and so does my co-pilot. So rest assured – we’ll be doing all we can up here to get ourselves back on the ground in one piece. That’s good news for the rest of you, assuming we can keep the main cabin attached to the cockpit. Finally, we value your business here at United, sincerely. And we appreciate the trust you’ve placed in us. But let’s not gild the lily. For the next few hours, we’re all in this together, so keep your hands to yourself, don’t get drunk, and listen to the flight attendants. In other words, try not to be an not a very nice person. I’ll see you on the ground...”

Now that’s an airline I could get behind! Who’s with me?
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Re: Another take on United Airlines video
Reply #1 - 04/18/17 at 05:16:42
 
I appreciate the verve of his remarks, however.....
To now make this episode fit under the more generous banner of authority is wrong.
I won't go into the details, but suffice to say, using authority granted as justification leave the short end of the stick dead and without recourse if a cop uses his gun to quickly....
That is just an extreme example of authority wielding consequences gone bad.
I will however say it has a place in our discussion of behavior exhibited of those folk who think it's their right to protest in a manner that disrupts and impinges of the rights of others, that you see herald and endorsed by the left wing politicos, pundits, and media....
Sanctuary cities being a good example of choosing behavior and which laws to heed, or not....
Our society is breaking down, and this whole episode is a fine example of how a simple problem with a simple fix, resulted....
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“The biggest big business in America is not steel, automobiles, or television. It is the manufacture, refinement and distribution of anxiety.”—Eric Sevareid (1964)
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Re: Another take on United Airlines video
Reply #2 - 04/18/17 at 05:28:15
 
Until he said Insubordinate I was tracking just fine. Barring having exceeded the threshold of tolerance for stink, size, mouth volume or content, simply expecting the Contract with the carrier to be honored isn't Insubordinate.
And, FWIW, it's not the passenger's fault that United NEEDED to get a flight crew somewhere. United would have been ahead to secure transportation for the one or two who they had no space for on another airline. They should have offered cash AND secure a first class seat for the soon to be
Re-Accomodated vicious beating victims.

The dudes a douche.. It's not about a Right to Fly. It's the CONTRACT, dufus.. Just because there are Valid Reasons for tossing a passenger off doesn't mean Every desire or need of the carrier trumps the Contract with the passenger.

Whatever happened to Reasonable Expectations? You pay the money, show up early, get humiliated, jump through the hoops, get on the plane, seated, ready to go, and someone decides YOU need to get off..Really?
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The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.- Edmund Burke.
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Re: Another take on United Airlines video
Reply #3 - 04/18/17 at 05:55:51
 
Well, to many of us, it looks like white cops shooting a non white man just because they have the authority.  I know, they didn't shoot.  What would have been fair would be to take the last four seats sold and have them deplane.  Even better, as noted in the piece, United should have got it done before putting passengers on the plane.  Yes, we rent the seats; but if the people who are paying for the seats are abused, they might just go elsewhere.  It is a service industry.  So we see two hallmarks for the cooperate world, crappy service and police state highhandedness.  Gotta love America, it is getting greater by the minute. Grin Grin Grin

And as noted by Mike, the airline jobs are becoming painful so bless all the attendants and gate keepers, flight line crews ..they are doing a tough job and deserve praise for the millions of times a day they get it right. (or at least as best they can given cramped seating which aggravates everyone's comfort zone making them cranky.)
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Re: Another take on United Airlines video
Reply #4 - 04/18/17 at 06:43:05
 
Yep,we Rent the seat.
Nowhere in common sense is there a way to justify UNRENTING someone's seat unless they have committed some offense.
The idea that Somehow it's Fair to screw the last Renters is mind numbingly capricious.
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The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.- Edmund Burke.
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Re: Another take on United Airlines video
Reply #5 - 04/18/17 at 07:00:22
 
Analogies are not always perfect, but take a look at this situation a little differently, something closer to home. Now, i'm using Craigslist as an example and by posting on Craigslist you technically agree to certain tetms but also keep in mind when you buy an airline tickets you agree on certain terms as well.

Imagine you're selling a bike on Craigslist and you get no responses for weeks, but finally get an offer for 1200 and you respond "I THINK we can do this deal". You fully intened on selling to him for $1200 but out of the blue, you get an offer for 2000.

You're under no legal obligation to sell him the bike for $1200 because you did not agree to the deal. And even if you did agree, I'm not sure you're obligated because there was no contract signed. Maybe you tell the $1200 guy, he can have the bike for $1950, basically a $50 discount off the current price. He says no, $1200 and he demands you give him the bike for $1200. You say no.

So you sell the bike to the $2000  guy, but the $1200  guy shows up, blocks the driveway so the $2000 guy can't leave.

What do you do?
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Re: Another take on United Airlines video
Reply #6 - 04/18/17 at 07:21:39
 
ITs so imperfect that it bears exactly no similarities.
Deal WAS made. He was seated in His Assigned Seat. And had committed no sins.
Being told to deplane and objecting to it is only Right. They had no right to take his seat. They rented it out. Deal was done.
Their ONLY lawful remedy is to purchase a seat.
They Tried that..
Well, not hard enough.
If you need a car and offer to buy one but no owners will sell for what you are offering, then are you in the right to beat up on someone and steal the car?
Will the judge hear your please of
I TRIED to buy it?
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The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.- Edmund Burke.
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Re: Another take on United Airlines video
Reply #7 - 04/18/17 at 08:05:22
 
I disagree Jog; its a pretty good analogy.

Deal WAS made. He was seated in His Assigned Seat. And had committed no sins.

yes, and part of that deal was the airline reserves the right to pull him from the fight; sins or not.

Being told to deplane and objecting to it is only Right. They had no right to take his seat. They rented it out. Deal was done.

yes, he can object, but the deal was not done. they have a right to take his seat. That's what he agreed to when he purchased the seat.

Their ONLY lawful remedy is to purchase a seat.

No, they had the lawful remedy to remove him.

If you need a car and offer to buy one but no owners will sell for what you are offering, then are you in the right to beat up on someone and steal the car?

No. Now there's an analogy that bears no similarities to this situation.

As was pointed out in Rowe's response, it was stupid they way United did it, but it was not illegal necessarily. Civilly actionable in a civil court? Oh hell yea, that dude's a future millionaire.
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Re: Another take on United Airlines video
Reply #8 - 04/18/17 at 08:10:35
 
So, because some lawyers threw a sentence in a contract that violates every reasonable expectation and that up until Now, very few people knew about, somehow that makes it okay? He "Voluntarily " agreed, did he? At what point do we see how coercive those Agreements are? It's WRONG to take someone's money for a service and through no fault of their own, choose to not fulfill the agreement.
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The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.- Edmund Burke.
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Re: Another take on United Airlines video
Reply #9 - 04/18/17 at 08:23:17
 
The short answer is; yes. One sentence in a contract matters. I just bought a house and I can promise you one sentence, one word, matters!

Airlines remove hundreds of thousands a year after they've already sat down. It's never happened to me, but I fly the same airline all the time, (Southwest) and have the highest status. I've probably caused some people to get bumped in fact.

I'm not saying it wasn't wrong, poor customer service etc... I'm just saying it isn't illegal or for that matter, something you wouldn't do in a similar circumstance.

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Re: Another take on United Airlines video
Reply #10 - 04/18/17 at 09:17:35
 
Everything About the CONTRACT is null and void at any time the person who accepted the CONTRACT and was Paid to Perform, IF they change their mind.
Would you rent a house knowing that the landlord could accept the deposit and hand you the key and you start moving in, but, they decide not to rent to you and set about dragging you out,,  
You people have exactly no grasp of right and wrong.
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Re: Another take on United Airlines video
Reply #11 - 04/18/17 at 09:48:33
 
Contracts per se, are only binding if the two parties agree to the terms within.
They are NOT binding to the courts, however, and can be challenged for a host of reasons.
To expect a person buying a ticket to read all the documentation attached, is weak, at best.
Did the company investigates this person mental aptitude to determine at his age, etc, he was in full charge of his capacities?
No?
Oh gee, grounds to find the contract null and void.

You are stretching Web, really pushing the envelope in this one, and to compare real estate contracts were you have underwriters, etc, is just plain silly, sorry.
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Re: Another take on United Airlines video
Reply #12 - 04/18/17 at 09:49:41
 
Jog; you are simply wrong about this and you are using a bad analogy again.

I just bought a house and we took a gamble. We put an offer on a house during the 10 day due diligence period the buyer of our house had. We had a signed contract from him and every assurance he would follow through with it, but he could have pulled out at the last second. We thought the deal was going to happen and we planned on him following thru (and he did) but he could have pulled the offer.

For an airline ticket, the issue is the same:  they can remove you if they overbook and in this case, they can remove you if they need your seats for additional crew. Until the door closes and you're in the air, it could happen. will it happen? 99% of the times, no.

That's the rules. If you don't know them or don't like them, that's your problem.

I don't know what's so hard to understand about this.

If you owned a house and rented it to someone and you had a stipulating that up until a certain time you can change your mind and not rent to them, you might need to use that on occasion. And if the situation warranted, you would use it and if necessary, you might need to call law enforcement.
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Re: Another take on United Airlines video
Reply #13 - 04/18/17 at 09:51:56
 
As Mike Rowe often does - very well - is elaborate on the crux of the matter.  The fact is, there are always two sides of an equation.  UAL was just plain dumb in how it handled this situation.  The Dr. that was pulled off - he was also out of line - maybe not as much as the airline, but still... definitely insubordinate.  

I've been bumped a few times in my travels and for my time I was rewarded fairly.  From what I've seen, he just out and out refused to negotiate with the crew.  Yeah, he's a jerk, but again, like Mike said - you've got everyone recording everything these days - UAL should have known and acted better.
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Re: Another take on United Airlines video
Reply #14 - 04/18/17 at 14:50:52
 
I would compare the airlines contract to TBBT:roommate agreement.
Quote:
For one thing, the text of the agreement is clearly designed to benefit Sheldon at Leonard’s expense. While the agreement does periodically throw Leonard a bone (i.e. Sheldon promising to take Leonard swimming at Bill Gates’ house if he ever gets invited, Sheldon promising to ask Leonard how he is once a day), it’s pretty one-sided. Sheldon actually admits as much on the show. Remember, he is the sole author of the agreement and he only presents it in situations where he can arm-twist Leonard into compliance. It is the Sword of Damocles hanging over Leonard’s life.

Good news for Leonard then... courts tend to invalidate contracts this one-sided. In legal parlance, we say the contract is substantively unconscionable. That is, the terms of the agreement are so unfair they offend the conscience. Aside from unfair terms, a contract is unconscionable when:

1.There is a lack of meaningful choice (i.e. sign this contract because there are no alternatives for you);
2.The contract was signed because one party engaged in deceptive practices, or
3.One of the parties lacks the ability to understand or learn about the meaning of the terms.
These other scenarios don’t apply, but I think Leonard has a strong argument that the agreement is so unfavorable to him as to be a genuine burden. Most of the clauses require Leonard to do something or refrain from doing something, and there is little onus on Sheldon to meet any kind of demand on Leonard's part.


1.While there is plenty of choice, they all have the same contract.
2.I would consider overbooking a deceptive practice.  I purchase a seat because I expect to fly at that time.  You said the seat was available.  If I don't show up, you take my money and say tough sh!t.
3.Really a 3700 word document?
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