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Crankcase vent/vacuum/PCV? (Read 447 times)
Armen
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Crankcase vent/vacuum/PCV?
08/08/16 at 18:20:59
 
Having owned and worked on lots of flat twins and big singles, I'm surprised how primitive the crank vent set-up is on the Savage.
At the very least, I usually put some sort of one way crankcase vent so that the motor isn't breathing in and out every time the piston goes up.
On the race bike we went so far as to run the crank vent into a can to trap oil mist, then ran a hose from the can to the exhaust to create negative pressure in the lower end.
The NASCAR guys live by this. Evacuating the bottom end of air pressure makes the rings work better, and frees up some horsepower that is lost when the piston goes down into a pressurized area.
Anyone play with this stuff on theirs?
thanks,
-Armen
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Re: Crankcase vent/vacuum/PCV?
Reply #1 - 08/08/16 at 19:18:33
 
Evacuating the bottom end of air pressure makes the rings work better, and frees up some horsepower that is lost when the piston goes down into a pressurized area.


There's a No duuh... and I never thought about it..
That might be worth messing with.
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Re: Crankcase vent/vacuum/PCV?
Reply #2 - 08/08/16 at 19:34:37
 
Could be one of the reasons why it burns a little oil at interstate speeds.
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Re: Crankcase vent/vacuum/PCV?
Reply #3 - 08/09/16 at 04:55:24
 
In the stock setup, the breather hose is connected to the air box and if it huffs/puffs in and out....so at least it is getting filtered air.  The hose is connected to the air filter box just before the carb inlet...so it is not subject to a lot of vacuum - but does get a bit and it does pull the vapors into the engine where they can be burned (oil and water droplets fall into the bottom of the air box and are drained out).  The vacuum is going to increase as the throttle is opened and the rpm increases - but it will only be as strong as the vacuum through the air filter.

I am not sure what kind of weird things would happen if you tried to connect the fitting to the engine side of the carb....downstream from the carb.  There are really large pulses going on....and being a single....the volume change inside the engine is equal to the volume change at the inlet port to the head - so given enough time to equalize the flow would be exactly the same.....the engine wouldn't try to pull anything through the carb! This would most likely have the biggest effect at low throttle settings when the air flow through the carb is low. The vent system is restrictive however, and the path from the bottom end, metal scrubby screen in the head, and flow through the vent nipple and hose does dampen out the pulses.  I would guess that as the engine is running, there is a positive pressure in the crankcase as the piston is near the bottom of the stroke, at a negative pressure as the piston is at the top of the stroke.....and the pressure varies with the rpm and throttle settings (as more throttle/rpm will create more blow by past the piston and rings).

I don't know if you will ever be able to create a vacuum in the engine - you might be able to increase the scavenging a bit.  When they have a PCV system on cars/trucks - does the PCV port somehow get incorporated into the position of the throttle plates in the carb....so that at idle the engine is not pulling too much air out of the engine and affecting the idle air/fuel flow?

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Armen
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Re: Crankcase vent/vacuum/PCV?
Reply #4 - 08/09/16 at 05:19:18
 
Dave,
This is all old news in racing. The reason you don't connect the breather can to the intake is because the most vacuum is created when the throttle is shut at high revs. Early NASCAR guys tell stories of shrink wrapping steel oil pans around the bottom end of the motor from the vacuum created by shutting the throttle at full chat.
When Udo Gietl and company were building the BMW Superbikes that won the first AMA championship, the guys came up with a system to run negative crankcase vacuum by angling a pipe from the breather into the exhaust header  pointing toward the muffler. The air passing over the tube created vacuum in the breather can, and into the crankcase.
Read a few issues of Circle Track magazine. Running crankcase vacuum is the norm for the big V-8s.
The gag is to use a small line at the bottom of the breather can piped ack into the crankcase. This way, when there is crankcase vacuum, the oil gets pulled pack into the motor.
Look at the later crank breathers on Airhead BMWs and Ducatis and you'll see a small hole for oil to get pulled back into the cases.
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Re: Crankcase vent/vacuum/PCV?
Reply #5 - 08/09/16 at 06:53:19
 
Armen:

I have seen the drag race cars with the breather pipes running into the headers, with a valve to prevent the backflow of exhaust - I thought they were just getting rid of the crankcase vapors.....I didn't know that the were actually trying to create a negative pressure in the engine interior.
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Re: Crankcase vent/vacuum/PCV?
Reply #6 - 08/09/16 at 07:00:00
 
Don't fix it, if it ain't broke... Lips Sealed
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Armen
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Re: Crankcase vent/vacuum/PCV?
Reply #7 - 08/09/16 at 07:15:05
 
Dave,
Exactly.
The gag with not using intake vacuum is that the most vacuum in the intake occurs when you need it the least for crankcase pressure. Closed throttle-more vacuum/WOT and very little vacuum. The most ring blowby happens at full chat.
Rings don't seal because of spring tension, they seal because the pressure above the piston forces the ring out against the cylinder wall. Most of an engine's internal friction comes from ring drag. In the race motors that use crankcase evacuation systems, they also use low tension rings. By creating vacuum in the bottom end, there is a pressure differential above and below the rings, so even a low tension ring seals well. Less drag=more HP.

Serowbot-translation of your comment is "Why move forward?"
There have been threads about oil consumption when the bikes are ridden hard. A more sophisticated crankcase breather system might be a way to reduce that problem.
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Re: Crankcase vent/vacuum/PCV?
Reply #8 - 08/09/16 at 12:17:45
 
I'm with Serowbot on this one. I don't think we have low tension rings available so with this setup we have an increase in ring to wall friction=less hp, more wear, so what have we gained? If the design of the can is not very sophisticated,we might have increased oil usage ! You may be taking two steps backward to move one step forward.
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Re: Crankcase vent/vacuum/PCV?
Reply #9 - 08/09/16 at 12:30:11
 
The advantage multi-cylinders have is only blow by is being huffed out the vents.  Whereas the thumper has to breathe and oil loss at high speed maybe from going from vac to pressure because of the 'small' diameter breather line.
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Armen
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Re: Crankcase vent/vacuum/PCV?
Reply #10 - 08/09/16 at 15:20:22
 
Batman,
Really?
I used to use a cheapo automotive PCV valve, but then figured out they don't work as well when they aren't vertical. Someone suggested using the one way valve from an auto power brake vacuum tank.
Cost is a few bucks. Use one without the whole oil capture gag and you'll still make the bottom end happier.
Or not.
The ten bucks and ten minutes might ruin your life  Grin

Verslagen,
Take a look at the bottom end of a modern ultra high perf inline 4. LOTS of engineering involved in getting the air under the piston to be able to move back and forth between the pairs of cylinders. They don't get 200 HP from 1 liter by just thinking happy thoughts  Smiley
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Re: Crankcase vent/vacuum/PCV?
Reply #11 - 08/09/16 at 15:28:22
 
Armen wrote on 08/09/16 at 15:20:22:
Verslagen,
Take a look at the bottom end of a modern ultra high perf inline 4. LOTS of engineering involved in getting the air under the piston to be able to move back and forth between the pairs of cylinders. They don't get 200 HP from 1 liter by just thinking happy thoughts  Smiley

still the point is, Ø1/2" breather line vs Ø94mm piston = major restriction.
Driving a piston against vacuum is no better than pressure.
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Armen
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Re: Crankcase vent/vacuum/PCV?
Reply #12 - 08/09/16 at 15:35:12
 
'Driving a piston against vacuum is no better than pressure.'

Huh?

On what planet?

Quick call all the leading NASCAR teams and tell them to remove the vacuum pumps they run off the bottom end of their motors.
And you know that real slouch motor, the 1199 Panigale? Yup, fitted with a vacuum pump on the bottom end. Better call Ducati as well.
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Re: Crankcase vent/vacuum/PCV?
Reply #13 - 08/09/16 at 19:33:33
 
This the same as ram induction theory , might have a h/p boost on a thousand h/p nascar engine , but on a 33 h/p single cylinder it not going to do squat-crap-zero-nada but maybe blow a gasket & cause a leak!!!
There is plenty of H/P to be extracted from these engines without chasing your tails for 1/10 of one h/p ! The Topic Terminator has spoken !
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Re: Crankcase vent/vacuum/PCV?
Reply #14 - 08/09/16 at 20:18:52
 
Listen to Bot , he's honest & wise
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