LostArtist
Ex Member
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justin_o_guy2 wrote on 12/28/15 at 17:55:38:LostArtist wrote on 12/28/15 at 15:09:52:Dane Allen wrote on 12/28/15 at 13:53:54:LostArtist wrote on 12/28/15 at 12:43:30:DesertRat wrote on 12/27/15 at 07:37:16:Is it constitutional? if it's not, how do you justify paying for food, water and shelter? These are all things that ARE PAID for, maybe not by the poor person using them, but someone PAID for them for someone else to use. in capitalism, everything is commerce and participation in commerce IS MANDATED by capitalism I think you are confusing Commerce with Economics in part of that statement but absolutely nothing is mandated by capitalism with regard to commerce. no, it is, capitalism places monetary values on EVERYTHING, food is not a right, it's a commodity to be sold, shelter is not a right, it is a commodity to be sold, even water is not a right, it is a commodity to be sold. Luckily capitalists haven't figured out how to make air into a commodity quite yet. in our capitalist society, you are required to BUY food, to BUY shelter, to BUY water. everything has a cost to it at some point and someone is paying it via COMMERCE. even your very birth is capitalized on. nothing is FREE. now if you want, I guess you can drop out of society as much as possible and be a bum and catch your own food, fishing or however. skin your catches and make your own clothing and stuff, (the Amish and maybe some Native American societies do this) but in general, in our society, yes, commerce is mandated by strong societal norms, not laws. The government isn't Mandating that you buy anything. It's your choice. You don't Have to Buy food. You can raise your own, be a hunter/gatherer, beggar or thief. You can't raise your own without paying someone something for land and the resources needed to raise your own. Yes you can be a hunter gatherer, but at some point you are going to have to buy something to use for your gathering or your hunting. beggars and thieves are still CONSUMING something that has value, they are taking part in commerce, raising prices by stealing and increasing the cost of protection of goods to market or protection of goods at home, or the cost to jail them, etc. there is a COST to their activities which will be reflected in the marketplace, meaning the REST of us will pay for it so those activities force us all to pay for that commerce. The obvious disdain for capitalism is gut wrenching. I don't disdain capitalism, I just understand that capitalism isn't all sprinkles and unicorns and rainbow farts, it's not capitalism that I disdain, it's the worst of the worst kinds of GREED that abuse capitalism Would it be wrong of me to believe that You don't want to work for free?
this is irrelevant, working for free isn't an option, it doesn't matter if I want to or not, capitalism DEMANDS that I get paid, capitalism mandates that a value be placed on my labor, I only get to choose what kind of labor I do, I only want to be paid because things cost money, things like rent and food and entertainment I would love to be creative and add to society as a productive member without being BRIBED to do so Or do you believe that everyone should be fed, clothed,housed, cared for medically equally, regardless of what jobs they perform? you think that people should just die? allowed to starve, go naked and allowed to die of disease UNLESS they add value to your view of society? if so, you believe that human life has no innate value and are an evil person
now can people upgrade their healthcare and lifestyle? yes of course, but there should be some basic level of those things for everyone
Do you believe in merit ? Yes, what the hell does that have to do with mandating commerce? Are outcomes for everyone supposed to be equal? no, I'm not arguing that ANYWHERE HERE, quit bringing YOUR BIAS that you think I'm saying and listen to what I'M ACTUALLY SAYING Does the idea of entrepreneurship and wealth creation do anything for you? No, not really, I'm not motivated by money, sorry, just doesn't work for me. I'm motivated by problem solving and the problem itself, sometimes that problem is money, as in how to get it to pay the rent, food, etc... you know FORCED commerce so I got a job that solves those problemsDo you understand that wealth creation by one individual does not take from anyone else? Yes, again, I'm not arguing anything for or against that here, that AGAIN HAS NOTHING to do with forced commerce.
I have time. Please, answer each question.
the question of this thread is "Mandating participation in commerce?" and simply, Capitalism mandates participation in commerce.
without participation in commerce Capitalism FAILS. We live in a capitalist society, which is awesome, I engage happily in capitalism to the best of my judgment and ability. But I'm not idiotic enough to think that capitalism is all sprinkles and unicorns, it has it's bad side, mainly the golden rule "those that have the gold MAKE THE RULES" but currently it's the best system in the world and as far as I can tell it has the best chance to solve many of humanity's problems if it's guided by moral principles, it's the erosion of those principles that's the problem.
and lets be clear here, especially about healthcare, those of us who have been buying health insurance have ALWAYS been forced into commerce to pay for those who have not been buying health insurance. OUR PREMIUMS go up when emergency room visits go up and doctors and other healthcare assets go unpaid by those that don't have health insurance and USE healthcare. Those that had/have the gold set it up that way a long time ago.
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