SuzukiSavage.com - Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children.

Demin Serious Thumper Offline We need more chlorine in the gene pool Posts: 2435 Warren,Ohio Gender:	Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Reply #135 - 12/21/12 at 12:54:50 Add lawn darts to that list.Remember those?They were dangerous in the hands of a drunk or a kid.
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Jerry Eichenberger

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Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children.
Reply #136 - 12/21/12 at 13:18:45

Demin -

Good point, and not funny. Our law firm does lots of product liabilty defense work, and lawn darts maimed over a hundred known kids, and killed a couple of dozen. Known cases, probably 100 times that many lesser injuries never reported.

Same with backyard elevated trampolines - even today, you see a few still around, and hundreds of broken backs, broken necks, and some deaths have been the results of those things.

Then, how many little kids drown in residential swimming pools every year? Hundreds, nationwide.

The real answer to school violence of all types, whether it's a mugging in a school restrrom ro locker room, or mass murder is rapid identification of the kids who are at risk to cause mayhem and then, controlling them in whatever manner is necessary to remove the risk, or remove them from society.

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Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children.
Reply #137 - 12/21/12 at 13:29:44

Jerry Eichenberger wrote on 12/21/12 at 13:18:45:

Demin -

Good point, and not funny. Our law firm does lots of product liabilty defense work, and lawn darts maimed over a hundred known kids, and killed a couple of dozen. Known cases, probably 100 times that many lesser injuries never reported.

Same with backyard elevated trampolines - even today, you see a few still around, and hundreds of broken backs, broken necks, and some deaths have been the results of those things.

Then, how many little kids drown in residential swimming pools every year? Hundreds, nationwide.

The real answer to school violence of all types, whether it's a mugging in a school restrrom ro locker room, or mass murder is rapid identification of the kids who are at risk to cause mayhem and then, controlling them in whatever manner is necessary to remove the risk, or remove them from society.

Seriously, if you will fork over the few trillion a year needed for that type of program, then talk. Else STFU. Its another case of Repug's talking out of both sides of their mouth ...

Stopping crazies from killing lots of people ... either spend trillions and round em up into a mental health program and wait 20 years ... or squeeze the gun ownership side and dont spend nothing, and wait 10 years.
Or do both, so you can back off the gun squeeze in a bit when the mental health thing starts working.

And yes lots of things when misused maim and kill ... they usually kill the relatives of the misuser ... and there in lies the sense that it is fair. I want to set up a 20ft plastic pool in my backyard, likely me or my kid will drown in it. Not likely your kid will. I start shooting in a school, likely your kid will get shot, not mine, especially if I dont have a kid.

Cant legislate stupidity or common sense depending on which way you look @ it. We can legislate a device meant to kill. We must.

Cool.
Srinath.

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Jerry Eichenberger Serious Thumper Offline 2006 S40. OEM windshield, saddle bags, Sportster Posts: 2919 Columbus, Ohio Gender:	Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Reply #138 - 12/21/12 at 13:50:53 Srinath - You've got a one track mind. Too bad.
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Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children.
Reply #139 - 12/21/12 at 13:59:58

And, you're wrong on who gets hurt or killed by "toys". Usually it's the guest, not the owner. Take those trampolines for example - it's usually the guest who doesn't know how to use one, yet climbs up on it, tries to do a flip, and ends up on the ground.

Often it's the visitor's little one who drowns in backyard pools. Just today, there's a good article on Yahoo about home owner insurance rates for liability insurance, and what features of a house raise them. Number one is a swimming pool. We're talking liabilty insurance, what the homeowner's insurer risks by insuring a home with these risks. Number two is a trampoline, and yes, number three is certain breeds of dogs, or any dog who has previously biten someone.

One of the saddest cases I ever had to defend was a 5 year old killed by the neighbor's pit bull. The autopsy photos were disturbing even to me, and I view autopsy photos in some case or another every week. Seeing a child's body literally torn open and apart is not for the faint hearted.

Get off of your one track mind about gun deaths. Many, many more innocents are killed every day by other means.

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Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children.
Reply #140 - 12/21/12 at 15:20:17

Current plan is to make every school a secure facility... just like sandy hook.

You see how well that worked.

Your plan seems to be limit clips and high power guns.

even a 22 will kill, so you're ok with limiting it to 10 dead?

I'm still hung up that these were stolen weapons.

Only a secure trigger or barrel lock on every weapon will disaude use.

maybe finger print activated issued with every purcase and registered.

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Demin

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Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children.
Reply #141 - 12/21/12 at 17:27:49

Jerry Eichenberger wrote on 12/21/12 at 13:18:45:

Demin -

Good point, and not funny. Our law firm does lots of product liabilty defense work, and lawn darts maimed over a hundred known kids, and killed a couple of dozen. Known cases, probably 100 times that many lesser injuries never reported.

Same with backyard elevated trampolines - even today, you see a few still around, and hundreds of broken backs, broken necks, and some deaths have been the results of those things.

Then, how many little kids drown in residential swimming pools every year? Hundreds, nationwide.

The real answer to school violence of all types, whether it's a mugging in a school restrrom ro locker room, or mass murder is rapid identification of the kids who are at risk to cause mayhem and then, controlling them in whatever manner is necessary to remove the risk, or remove them from society.

Yeah,I was kinda half serious,half joking.I put one in to my foot,but that wasn't half as painfull as the butt whooping I got for doing it.I guess my point in this whole thing is no matter what the weapon of choice is people are still going to kill.I still think it starts at home.Let parents be parents.I don't believe in abuse,but I don't believe any of my generation became killers because we got our butts beat.I also remember when teachers had power to correct kids and not worried about repercussion from the parents.If I got spanked in school,I knew there was another one waiting at home.

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Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children.
Reply #142 - 12/21/12 at 21:10:18

One thing that has never ever worked in this country to slow down violent crime is to put any kind of restrictions on gun ownership. It is really frustrating to see all the libs braying about how more laws will make us safe. Check the FBI records for the past half-century or so. Making it more difficult to own any kind of gun only makes things more difficult for law-abiders,... those would not do anything wrong with any kind of gun. Pure stupidity.

If we want to do something about guns, let's find ways to actually dissuade the bad guys from using them. If a bad guy intent upon hurting someone thinks that someone he wants to hurt or someone else in the area will shoot him, he might be a little less inclined to commit evil. IOW, the more guns the good guys have, the less advantage the bad guys have.

As Robert Heinlein says, "An armed society is a polite society."

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Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children.
Reply #143 - 12/21/12 at 21:14:47

I don't understand the hysterical reaction so many folks had to the NRA's suggestion we put more armed security folks in schools. A large percentage of schools have armed guards already. We have armed security in banks, airports, sporting events, congress, etc. If we made a national show about how as a country our schools will be ready for any murderers, some of them will back off. The problem, though, is that when the bad guys realize shooting folks is too dangerous, they'll resort to other killing devices like the guy in 1927 in Michigan that killed something like 44 people without using a gun at all.

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Serowbot YaBB Moderator ModSquad Offline OK.... so what's the speed of dark? Posts: 28625 Tucson Az Gender:	Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Reply #144 - 12/21/12 at 21:50:52 Why,.. are we...America,... the country to have armed schools?... Should we be proud of that?... ... I don't think other countries admire that...
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Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children.
Reply #145 - 12/21/12 at 21:51:24

All this talk about BAD guys, and GOOD guys feels strangely familar, kinda like those old westerns from a lost era, where you could always tell the good guys from the bad guys by the white hats..

Fast forward fifty years and the difference becomes rather blurry, now its the insane, they are the bad guys, and believe me when I say they are insane, they lose their mentally ill status as soon as they pick up a gun and start shooting people..

And now our population is less than 5% of the world population, yet we own over 50% of the weapons in the world.. That would put us in either a paranoid bunch of armed nutcases catergory, or the most prepared nation in the world for all out war in the streets.. Either would be a place ready to explode, arm everyone is the NRA's cry, good guys will prevail.. They don't... And, who is going to draw the lines between good guy and bad guy, remember no more white hats?

I don't like their answer, I have owned, or fired almost every weapon known to man, I have seen close up the damage these weapons can do to human flesh, I have carried my friends in body bags.. You ask "What does that have to do with now?" I answer "Everybody was carrying a weapon then also, 24/7/365."...

One more thing, there were two armed guards at Columbine...

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Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children.
Reply #146 - 12/21/12 at 22:57:43

... and,.. how many, highly trained, totally alert, armed men, were encircled within 20ft of R. Reagan, and J. Brady when both were shot by an inexperienced loon?...
Yet,.. he was physically tackled and subdued,... not shot... after the act was done...
Think a gun makes you bulletproof?,.. hardly...
Do you think you are more aware, and ready, in the checkout at the 7-eleven... than a dozen trained SS agents surrounding the president?...

Being armed,.. only makes you safe, at a distance, from an unarmed assailant...
The advantage goes to the first strike,.. not the most equipped...
A fist beats a machine--gun within 25ft... if it strikes without warning...
And the bad guy, knows when he will strike,.. you don't...

Armed protection can work in a home... but out in the world,.. it is more wish than fact...

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Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children.
Reply #147 - 12/22/12 at 00:21:36

Serowbot wrote on 12/21/12 at 21:50:52:

Why,.. are we...America,... the country to have armed schools?...

Should we be proud of that?... Huh

...

I don't think other countries admire that...

My wife was a SRO (armed School Resource Officer) for a few years during her law enforcement career. She arrested more parents than students. If the school administration tried to make little Johnny behave the parent would come in and threaten the teacher and principal with bodily harm. She arrested two parents for driving their kids to school drunk. Schools without LEO's are heaven for drug dealers and teaching staff who are sexual predators. Went to lunch with a high school teacher today, he's terrified of some of the crazy students and the parents that back them up. We have School Resource Officers at middle and high schools, they're there to protect the school administration and prevent drug sales and abuse. I think they're needed at the elementry schools now to protect the students. Everywhere there is a large gathering of citizens in this country (concerts, sporting events, etc) there are armed LEO's. Adding elementary schools to the list isnt going to change our image. This country is full of immigrants, someone likes what they see here and believes in this country enough to want to become a citizen.

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« Last Edit: 12/22/12 at 02:00:03 by Midnightrider »

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Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children.
Reply #148 - 12/22/12 at 13:13:14

I can't see how it is possible to change the way gun owners look at guns. The entire American culture has been steeped in paranoia since the beginning of the cold war. The paranoia was even present during WW2 with the "Loose Lips Sink Ships" mentality. After the McCarthy era where a commie was behind every tree it became so ingrained that paranoia became the norm. That along with the easy access to firearms post WW2 started this obsession with gun ownership.
I feel like this will go down the same road that the airport security has. We will wake up one day and find that the TSA is now protecting our schools, churches, Wal-Mart's ect. That's when the paranoia will really hit home. More guns will not relieve paranoia, it is just the opposite. More guns increase paranoia because people are buying guns to feel safe but just the fact that people think a gun is needed means people will never feel safe. So they go out and purchase more guns. It's a catch 22

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Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children.
Reply #149 - 12/22/12 at 15:35:58

Ed L. wrote on 12/22/12 at 13:13:14:

I can't see how it is possible to change the way gun owners look at guns. The entire American culture has been steeped in paranoia since the beginning of the cold war. The paranoia was even present during WW2 with the "Loose Lips Sink Ships" mentality. After the McCarthy era where a commie was behind every tree it became so ingrained that paranoia became the norm. That along with the easy access to firearms post WW2 started this obsession with gun ownership.
I feel like this will go down the same road that the airport security has. We will wake up one day and find that the TSA is now protecting our schools, churches, Wal-Mart's ect. That's when the paranoia will really hit home. More guns will not relieve paranoia, it is just the opposite. More guns increase paranoia because people are buying guns to feel safe but just the fact that people think a gun is needed means people will never feel safe. So they go out and purchase more guns. It's a catch 22

When the good guys buy more guns, the bad guys have less of an advantage. It is not paranoid to realize how the media has blown this situation into wacko-land, and that the modern reality is to protect yourself.

The bad guys always have all the guns they want. The more guns owned and carried by the good guys just makes the situation a little less in the bad guys' favor.

Sticking your head in the sand is not a solution. Accepting reality and NOT sticking your head in the sand is not at all paranoid.

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