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Add on fuel filter restriction issues (Read 741 times)
Grayowl
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Add on fuel filter restriction issues
11/04/12 at 07:43:14
 
I added a fuel filter (5/16 inlet & outlet) that appears to be the same as Oldfellows (from pictures in his posts) and purchased it from Auto Zone.   The bike will only run for a couple of minutes then it is starved for fuel.  When I remove the filter it is fine, so it has to be the restriction on the filter in a gravity feed system.  Has anyone else run into this issue ?  I have seen it mentioned by Claron in one other post by Cafejim  (Help!!! Carb problems I think? 10/26/12 at 21:43:2), but not much discussion on it.

When I remove the line from the carb no fuel come out with the starter turning the engine and the petcock in the ON or Reserve position.  When I remove the fuel filter the fuel will run out of the line with the starter turning the engine and the petcock in the ON or Reserve position.  When I am in the Prime position on the petcock no fuel with the filter and fuel without it that is why I am thinking it has to be restriction across the 40 micron paper pleat filters that I can find in the local auto part stores.  Does anyone have a part number that works on the LS 650 ?

Just thought I would ask, since I would like to run an additional filter to protect against issues with small crap in the carb, but have not been able to find one with a low enough restriction to work on the gravity fuel system.  The one from my tractor works but it is only a gravel catcher so to speak 100 micron and up.
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Re: Add on fuel filter restriction issues
Reply #1 - 11/04/12 at 07:57:53
 


Charon's information came from a Honda 250 twin that he is currently riding.

Can you post a pic of your set up on your Savage?


Have you ever simply poured some gasoline into the inlet of the filter and watched to see if the paper element would stop it?

That is functionally at NO head height, so if the gas stops like you think it will then you have something to show the clerk at Autozone when you carry the filter back to them to get your money back.
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Grayowl
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Re: Add on fuel filter restriction issues
Reply #2 - 11/04/12 at 08:13:05
 
I have it off the bike right now, but it was set up just like yours in your post (Re: Help!!! Carb problems I think? Reply #13 - 10/27/12 at 17:28:30).  I used that picture to filter shopping to find one that would work and had the hose routing just like you picture, since I had issues with one other filters before that.  Missed the point about Honda 250 Twin, sorry about that.

I am headed out to the shop to pour some gas into the filter, never thought of that until you mentioned it.  I was thinking I was doing the same thing on the bike with the petcock, but that would really prove it in my own mind – no head pressure at all in that setup.  Thanks !!
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Re: Add on fuel filter restriction issues
Reply #3 - 11/04/12 at 08:21:08
 
 
They have a word for fuel filters that do not pass fuel when you pour it into the inlet side ....

..... defective ......




But before you try to carry it back to the clerk make sure it isn't marked with a flow arrow or "inlet" and "outlet".    

Some filters do have one>way valves incorporated in them, you know.





The clerk might also ask you about water after he examines the clear sided filter, as soaking the paper with water before gasoline gets applied to it can cause a paper filter to osmosis lock out the gasoline flow.

And we have heard about some folks using an old gas can full of watery rusty gasoline lately, which sort of thing could certainly do that sort of water soaking to a newly installed paper pleated fuel filter.

But it would show through the sides of the clear filter as wavy looking "swollen up" looking paper pleats.

A possible way to save a water soaked filter is to pour rubbing alcohol through it (Alcohol will mix with and absorb the water).

But since yours is brand new, simply carry it back to where you bought it from and get your money back.
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Grayowl
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Re: Add on fuel filter restriction issues
Reply #4 - 11/04/12 at 08:38:44
 
Fuel runs through it, but in doing that drill I think figured out what is biting me.  From the picture in your post the filter is full of fuel.  Mine never filled up, but I am thinking that it had some kind of air lock going on in the filter when it was hooked up to the carb and float was holding flow closed during installation of the filter.  Just having the petcock in the ON position was not enough to allow the filter to fill.

I am going to get it back on the bike shortly and fill the filter this time and see what the outcome is.

Thanks for helping me see the light or lack of fuel in this setup !!
Smiley
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Re: Add on fuel filter restriction issues
Reply #5 - 11/04/12 at 08:46:36
 
 
If you notice my set up, everything is oriented sequentially "downhill" and the top of the filter is below the petcock exit point so my filter stays full all the time.

Air lock?   No such animal as the fuel will flow downhill right through the paper element until the bowl fills up and the fuel backs up and fills the filter.

If you haven't been seeing this, you have another issue like a stuck float valve.

Take a good sized screwdriver handle and whack the bowl 3-4 times fairly smartly with the handle end when the petcock is on prime.  You should start to see fuel start flowing.



============


Now, here is a totally biased piece of advice.   Get rid of your vacsucker petcock, because if a simple fuel filter puzzles you out then that vacsucker is gonna drive you totally out of your mind when it starts to misbehave.

Wink
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Re: Add on fuel filter restriction issues
Reply #6 - 11/04/12 at 10:55:02
 
I went out and installed the filter in the same orientation that the fuel ran through it on the bench.  No fuel will flow into the filter with the outlet connected to the carb.  Taping on the bowl make no difference on the flow into the filter.  Running the engine makes no difference in the ON, RES, or prime position.  Remove the line from the carb engine running and very little to no fuel will come out of the line from the filter with the engine idling.

In fact no fuel will flow into the filter with the outlet end of the filter open and downhill in the prime position.   Remove the filter and fuel will flow out the hose end in the prime position on the petcock no problem.

No matter what I do the filter will not fill with fuel or even flow fuel through it for that matter.  I agree that just sitting there the filter should flow fuel in the prime position on the petcock, but it doesn’t.  I am at a loss as to why the filter will flow fuel with when you pour in into the filter and not when it is hooked to the petcock in the prime position.  I understand how the vacuum portion of the petcock works and that is why I have been using the prime position during these drills.  I have also tried the ON and RES positions to no avail with the engine idling on what fuel was in the bowl.

Fuel flows through the gravel catcher (100 micron screen) filter off of my tractor when it is on the bike and the bike runs fine.  The fuel will not flow through the FF7144DL filter when it is on my tractor (gravity fuel system also), so it has to be something in the FF7144DL fuel filter 40 micron pleated paper media and restriction across it.  Since the fuel will flow through the FF7144DL filter when it is poured in I am at a loss as to why the filter is acting the way it does.  This has become a personnel issue with me and I will get the lab manometer on the filter at work on Monday and get an exact restriction across the filter media.  

Back to running a straight hose and riding the bike to worry about the fuel filter another day.  Thanks again for the help and advise !!
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Re: Add on fuel filter restriction issues
Reply #7 - 11/04/12 at 11:01:12
 
TRy a long hose on the filter, filled with fuel & blow  gas thru it, wet the paper fully. Once its wet with gas, it may play more nicely,
Youve already done some smart stuff by playing with the tractor & its filter. One more step & its either on the bike or back to the store.
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Grayowl
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Re: Add on fuel filter restriction issues
Reply #8 - 11/04/12 at 11:25:10
 
JOG2 - I will try that on Monday when I have the filter in the shop and see if it makes any difference in the restriction across the media when I can measure the actual restriction with good accuracy.  That way if the restriction changes from what I now to full of fuel  I will be able to detect it.  

From one of your other posts it looks like you live out in east Texas somewhere.  I live down in Granbury, TX and get out to the mines in east Texas from time to time for my job.  Maybe we could get together sometime for lunch when I am out there.  I normal have the truck when I am out at the mines, as I need my tools to fix what issue they have going on.  If I ever catch a PR visit at the mines were no tools are needed I could ride the bike out.
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Re: Add on fuel filter restriction issues
Reply #9 - 11/04/12 at 11:38:02
 
YOu must get up around Mineola then? Im North of Longview , about 5 or 6 miles I guess, , about 1/2 mile East of 300, & about 2 miles North of 1844. Im about 40 Mi East of Mineola.

Im not riding right now, so,, bring the truck.Just come on out, Theres a few good burger joints in L/view.
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Re: Add on fuel filter restriction issues
Reply #10 - 11/04/12 at 12:23:14
 
Actually, the machine on which I tried the fuel filter is a Honda CH80, an Elite 80 scooter. The filter flowed enough fuel when the tank was full, but not enough when the tank got down to 1/2 as measured on the scooter's gauge. The scooter tops out about 40-45 mph, and gets about 80 mpg, so the filter only has to flow 1/2 gph. Filling the tank (at a gas station, not from a rusty can) restored operation until I got home and removed the filter.

I have several paper filters on hand, all new. I plan to run an unscientific flow test on them when time permits. My plan is to use an old fuel tank from a Toro Sno Pup, which holds about a quart. I am still working on details of the procedure, but I plan to restrict the "head" of gasoline to less than a few inches. The basic idea is to fill the tank, time how long it takes to empty with no filter, then try again with each filter. If life doesn't get in the way again, I should be able to get to it in a few days.
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Re: Add on fuel filter restriction issues
Reply #11 - 11/04/12 at 12:30:18
 

Fuel flows through the gravel catcher (100 micron screen) filter off of my tractor when it is on the bike and the bike runs fine.  The fuel will not flow through the FF7144DL filter when it is on my tractor (gravity fuel system also), so it has to be something in the FF7144DL fuel filter 40 micron pleated paper media and restriction across it.  Since the fuel will flow through the FF7144DL filter when it is poured in I am at a loss as to why the filter is acting the way it does.  This has become a personnel issue with me and I will get the lab manometer on the filter at work on Monday and get an exact restriction across the filter media.  


Justin, be aware that he is talking about testing his tractor fuel filter not the big clear universal filter that is mentioned in the instructional thread he says he's basing off of.

Punch in FF7144DL filter into your browser and it does come up with an Autozone listing that looks like this.  

http://www.autozone.com/autozone/parts/_/N-8gd7g?itemIdentifier=246928_0_0_




He's got the completely wrong filter, or something else is wrong here.   First he starts off talking his bike and a clear filter ....

I added a fuel filter (5/16 inlet & outlet) that appears to be the same as Oldfellows (from pictures in his posts) and purchased it from Auto Zone.   The bike will only run for a couple of minutes then it is starved for fuel.

Then he finishes talking about his his bike AND his tractor and a tractor style filter on his bike.

??????  

Fuel flows through the gravel catcher (100 micron screen) filter off of my tractor when it is on the bike and the bike runs fine.  The fuel will not flow through the FF7144DL filter when it is on my tractor (gravity fuel system also), so it has to be something in the FF7144DL fuel filter 40 micron pleated paper media and restriction across it.  Since the fuel will flow through the FF7144DL filter when it is poured in I am at a loss as to why the filter is acting the way it does.  This has become a personnel issue with me and I will get the lab manometer on the filter at work on Monday and get an exact restriction across the filter media.  
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Re: Add on fuel filter restriction issues
Reply #12 - 11/04/12 at 13:28:02
 
The filter I have does not look like the picture you have it is marked with FF7144DL and 12155195 and came from the local AutoZone.  It has 5/16 inlet and outlet and is clear plastic about 1.25 in dia and slightly tapered at one end.  Looks very similar to the one Oldfellow has on his bike, that is why I bought it.  It appears the AutoZone site is having problems as I can not get to it.

I Googled FF7144DL and it comes up with a Durlast filter that looks like the one I have and several sites for other bike owners recommend using it, but some have had problems from what I have been reading on those sights.  This one blows my mind as it should work from the test I have done, but doesn’t.  
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Re: Add on fuel filter restriction issues
Reply #13 - 11/04/12 at 13:29:17
 
 
Charon,  I am very interested in your "head pressure survey" information.  

Please don't junk it up with a lot of metal cannister data though as I don't think people should be using opaque fuel filters (it misses the main point that the clear sided filters do meet, to be able to SEE your fuel's condition and its flow)

==========

Yup, I mighta got lucky on my clear fuel filter compared to a lot of the metal pressure cannister types out there.  I wanted to be able to SEE what was going on -- and I still think that is a key requirement for troubleshooting.   (I don't think I would have put my finger on the vac petcock near as quickly without the clear filter to look at when the bike was dying by the roadside).

Mine was sold as a clear plastic universal in-line filter and they used to be very common, Walmart sold them as did every auto parts store, in quarter inch, 5/16 and 3/8 sizes.  Some had combo nipples (mine did).

The world does turn from year to year though, and I am surprised to find that now the clear sided fuel filters in the smaller nipple sizes are not so easily found any more.


Fram G2, G3 and Fram G12 are still in stock at parts stores, etc, but the ID size of the hose goes up to 3/8" which is still within clamp closure range I guess.  The old G1 small nipple must be ordered from most places now days.

"The G2 has a nominal micron rating of 10-14 microns."    You gotta love that very very very clear polycarbonate bowl that Fram uses, although under stress a polycarbonate can crack a little easier than a softer (less clear) plastic.   Our looping hoses don't put a lot of stress on anything, and the position we put it in is very protected from impacts.  Also note that Fram packs a lot of inches of filter paper into that tightly folded pleat section, more so than a lot of the others who don't filter nearly as finely.



Here is a pic of the old G1 small nipple which does need to be ordered most places now days.  In retrospect, a quarter inch hose is likely too small on the nipple ID for a maximized fuel flow (the nipple on the filter presents a restriction point).   When I replace mine, I will go with bigger 3/8" hose and bigger nipples accordingly.



There are a lot of two stroke marine filters in the same size range are available at larger micron numbers, but that isn't "commonly available" the way I like to recommend things.

Still, the use of a CLEAR SIDED fuel filter is vital on a motorcycle, so you can see what is what with your fuel.   We will have to spot some easy to get filter sources and see what we have available and add it back to the Tech thread.

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Re: Add on fuel filter restriction issues
Reply #14 - 11/04/12 at 13:59:12
 
I finally got into the AutoZone web site and the filter comes up there with two on the page the first one is the one I have with their part number Part Number: FF1-4DL, but the filter is stamped FF7144DL.  I am not sure what the deal is there, but I will look later when I go past the AutoZone.
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