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BIG JUG (Read 2546 times)
LANCER
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Re: BIG JUG
Reply #30 - 03/27/10 at 03:18:39
 
Oldfeller wrote on 03/26/10 at 19:31:17:
if you want bigger, it exists ...

Trouble is your sleeve isn't big enough to hold it.

DR650 pistons and pins fit our con rod ... and they come in two year split groups, the early models started at 95mm and the later year models grouped around 100mm.

This is the basis for some of the European group's 880 and 900cc engines as the aftermarket made up kit pistons going up to 104mm

===========

All of the above is hooey of course, nobody would really DO that sort of stuff to an engine, now would they?

Grin




Yep, I look at the possibility of using the  100-103mm at one time since there was a new piston on ebay for really cheap at the time, but the cyl would need a new larger liner and the really big sticking point is that the cases would need to be bored to accept it  B U T  there is no room left inside the case/cyl studs for the bore to be done.
Yea, that would have been really fun to try.  It takes it up to 783cc and 10.2 CR ... and that is with a flat piston.  If it has a crown like the forged Wiseco I've got then the CR jumps to 11.5-12.  WHERE'S THE BATTERY FOR THAT ONE ?

But the LS650 case is the limiting factor and the 97mm is as big as it will go.  There is not a lot left on the bottom of the cyl liner.  I have not measured it yet but it is smaller to be sure.
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Re: BIG JUG
Reply #31 - 03/27/10 at 09:23:33
 
I looked since some Europeans have done it -- you'd buy a custom liner and machine out the aluminum fin block and machine out the cases and you'd go all the way out to hit the studs (means an outside oil line) and after all that you'd maybe get 40-45 hp out of a cammed engine.

For a while, while fighting custom head gaskets and base gaskets and all the related bits and pieces until it comes apart on you.

Or, you can just go out and buy a Sneaky Pete Nitrous kit and bolt on 25 quick and easy hp and trash your engine just about as durn quick for only $220 invested in the nitrous kit, which you could then move somewhere else later after you finished burning up a Savage engine or two.

=====


I resisted that evil thought though .....  my heart is pure   Grin

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Stock silver 2002 ls650 with small saddle bags. Looks like Granny's old worn out bike, nothing special to it at all.
(all mods except BIG piston and carb change have been done, but do not show)
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Re: BIG JUG
Reply #32 - 03/28/10 at 04:28:07
 
Lancer, how much difference in weight is there between the old piston and new.  If there is much difference, wouldn't that mess with the counterweigh and be hard on main beariings?
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Re: BIG JUG
Reply #33 - 03/28/10 at 09:56:39
 
Toymaker wrote on 03/28/10 at 04:28:07:
Lancer, how much difference in weight is there between the old piston and new.  If there is much difference, wouldn't that mess with the counterweigh and be hard on main beariings?



I will check the weight
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Re: BIG JUG
Reply #34 - 03/28/10 at 10:09:48
 
phelonius added wt. to his so must be a little lighter.
end result was the counter balancer going for a walk.
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LANCER
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Re: BIG JUG
Reply #35 - 03/29/10 at 05:13:12
 
verslagen1 wrote on 03/28/10 at 10:09:48:
phelonius added wt. to his so must be a little lighter.
end result was the counter balancer going for a walk.


that is not exactly a good thing
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Re: BIG JUG
Reply #36 - 04/24/10 at 13:03:52
 
Toymaker wrote on 03/28/10 at 04:28:07:
Lancer, how much difference in weight is there between the old piston and new.  If there is much difference, wouldn't that mess with the counterweigh and be hard on main beariings?



I finally manage to get the weights of stock 94mm piston vs Wiseco forged 97mm piston

94mm stock is 371 grams
97mm Wisco is 369 grams

That is pretty close and I would not think 2 grams, or 0.5% wt difference would make trouble with the counter crank/balance system.

But I am shooting from the hip here, I am not an engineer so if someone with credentials can shed some finer light on the subject I would like to hear your professional opinion.
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Re: BIG JUG
Reply #37 - 04/24/10 at 15:12:37
 
My piston was one silly millimeter smaller than the one you are working with and it was 33 grams lighter than the one I took out.
BTW when you compared piston weights did you include the weight of the piston pin?  You must use the new pin with the new piston.  It is signifigantly shorter than the stock one.
If you only have 2 grams difference, you should be okay.
The web thickness of the cylinder sleeve at the bottom should not be less than 2 mm thick. On my engine I ended up with just barely 3mm
With your 97mm piston you are at the hairy edge of limit for how much you can bore the cylinder.  Hope it works better than mine.

Phelonius
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Re: BIG JUG
Reply #38 - 04/24/10 at 17:33:47
 
Phelonius wrote on 04/24/10 at 15:12:37:
My piston was one silly millimeter smaller than the one you are working with and it was 33 grams lighter than the one I took out.
BTW when you compared piston weights did you include the weight of the piston pin?  You must use the new pin with the new piston.  It is signifigantly shorter than the stock one.
If you only have 2 grams difference, you should be okay.
The web thickness of the cylinder sleeve at the bottom should not be less than 2 mm thick. On my engine I ended up with just barely 3mm
With your 97mm piston you are at the hairy edge of limit for how much you can bore the cylinder.  Hope it works better than mine.

Phelonius

I don't remember exactly but the bottom of the cyl was a bit over 2...somehthing like 2.3 or close to 2.4mm

You are right about the pin on the new piston being shorter, now that you mention it, but I did not include the pins in the weighing, just the pistons.  The forged piston is physically smaller at the skirts but I assume because it is forged that the more tightly packed molecules make a more dense material and make up for the reduced material.

Also, keep in mind that this piston is for the DR650, 90-95, during which time it shared the same piston with the LS650.  Now if Wisco is confident that this piston/pin will work just fine in a faster turning DR engine with shorter stroke then there should be no problem with our engines either.  Both work basically the same way, share some common paarts, so the slight wt difference must not be an issue, otherwise they would have stopped production 15-20 yrs ago.
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Re: BIG JUG
Reply #39 - 04/24/10 at 18:42:33
 
This has nothing to do with a Savage, but when I big bored and stroked my 75 ironhead, the pistons that came with the cylinders looked much like yours (exceot mine had shorter skirts-just past the pin to clear the wheels) and I called and questioned it. I was told quite frankly that it reduces the side loading on the pin bushings. Dunno why, but it must work because I never had any excessive side to side play or rod twist using those pistons.
I even got a set for another 75 with a stockish bore (20 over) and noticed that the rods and pin bushings were in better shape than with the OEM style pistons after 58,912 miles. I also noticed a decrease in vibration at higher reves vs stock pistons.

Great choice on oil. Castrol was always my favorite (all the brits I've owned got it) till I couldn't find straight weights anymore. So my sporty's got fed a diet of straight 60wt Valvoline as well as the trans and i noticed right off the bat that the engine ran cooler and quieter. It does cling quite well too-plays havoc with clutches if you happen to get too much in there. When you drain it out it taks a while for it to come off!

Are you knife edging the the wheels?? Maybe an AMAL Mk2 concentric or Smooth Bore??
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Re: BIG JUG
Reply #40 - 04/25/10 at 08:39:02
 
einheit13 wrote on 04/24/10 at 18:42:33:
This has nothing to do with a Savage, but when I big bored and stroked my 75 ironhead, the pistons that came with the cylinders looked much like yours (exceot mine had shorter skirts-just past the pin to clear the wheels) and I called and questioned it. I was told quite frankly that it reduces the side loading on the pin bushings. Dunno why, but it must work because I never had any excessive side to side play or rod twist using those pistons.
I even got a set for another 75 with a stockish bore (20 over) and noticed that the rods and pin bushings were in better shape than with the OEM style pistons after 58,912 miles. I also noticed a decrease in vibration at higher reves vs stock pistons.

Great choice on oil. Castrol was always my favorite (all the brits I've owned got it) till I couldn't find straight weights anymore. So my sporty's got fed a diet of straight 60wt Valvoline as well as the trans and i noticed right off the bat that the engine ran cooler and quieter. It does cling quite well too-plays havoc with clutches if you happen to get too much in there. When you drain it out it taks a while for it to come off!

Are you knife edging the the wheels?? Maybe an AMAL Mk2 concentric or Smooth Bore??  


Not sure what you mean by knife edging the wheels.  I've not heard of it.

No Amal available unfortunately, I use to have a whole shelf full of 36/38mm Mk II's but sold them all.  I should have kept at least one of each.
I currently have a 38mm Eelbrock Quicksilver and a 36mm VM modified a bit to play with, and several nice adons for it from thunder products, fun stuff.

after breaking a new piston ring and having to order a new set, I finally got the piston & cyl on the case and going to throw some clay on the piston and set the head on to check for clearance, so if all is well then it all gets bolted down, and on to closing it up so I can try to start it and hopefully it actually starts and runs properly
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Re: BIG JUG
Reply #41 - 04/25/10 at 10:08:03
 
Lancer, he's referring to reshaping the crankshaft weights. you lighten & reshape the crank to be more aerodynamic ( really hydrodynamic, since it goes thru oil).
I think if you find a good machine shop that understands high performance, you could lighten the crank AND balancer. Then have the whole rotating assembly balanced. It will run smoother & with the lightened rotating weight, rev quicker. Unless you do something stupid, it will last longer too. Cool

I raced an Opel GT for several years with a crank & rods I lightened & polished, then had balanced. It would rev to about 8500 rpm, then the #3 intake valves' weight would cause a problem. Rules didn't allow me to change to a lighter valve material, but a man in Connecticut  was turning 10 grand with his.  Grin

BTW, the pistons I used in the Opel were 95mm flat tops. I still have the pistons & have wondered how much different they are from a Savage. Undecided
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Re: BIG JUG
Reply #42 - 04/25/10 at 10:37:18
 
RidgeRunner13 wrote on 04/25/10 at 10:08:03:
Lancer, he's referring to reshaping the crankshaft weights. you lighten & reshape the crank to be more aerodynamic ( really hydrodynamic, since it goes thru oil).
I think if you find a good machine shop that understands high performance, you could lighten the crank AND balancer. Then have the whole rotating assembly balanced. It will run smoother & with the lightened rotating weight, rev quicker. Unless you do something stupid, it will last longer too. Cool

I raced an Opel GT for several years with a crank & rods I lightened & polished, then had balanced. It would rev to about 8500 rpm, then the #3 intake valves' weight would cause a problem. Rules didn't allow me to change to a lighter valve material, but a man in Connecticut  was turning 10 grand with his.  Grin

BTW, the pistons I used in the Opel were 95mm flat tops. I still have the pistons & have wondered how much different they are from a Savage. Undecided

Yep, what he said...lol.. I have the wheels knife edged on all HP set ups and then a complete blance and blueprint. I'm doing it now on my Dad's 05 Bonneville. Its great for releiving stress on bearings. I also clean up all the casting marks and 'flash' from the engine. That does wonders for stopping cracks in cast parts since it excess mateial in castings will add/change harmonics.

Stock crank...


Knife edged..
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Re: BIG JUG
Reply #43 - 04/25/10 at 10:46:47
 
Hours & hours with a die grinder & various 'attachments' to smooth out the block & heads, polished oil returns, rounded over all edges so nothing left with an edge to cut you. Grin
The owner of the machine shop I used would say I didn't leave him a lot to do. By doing my own work & assembling my own engines, I was spending 25% of what my competitors were. Cool
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Re: BIG JUG
Reply #44 - 04/25/10 at 14:16:29
 
I can see why it would work better that way.  I would think that at crank speeds the contact with the case oil would be a significant drag on the system and doing that kind of work to reshape the crank would reduce that a lot.

Besides, machined metal is just pretty to look at.   Smiley
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