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General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> BIG JUG
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Message started by LANCER on 02/23/10 at 04:43:12

Title: BIG JUG
Post by LANCER on 02/23/10 at 04:43:12

I got a little time yesterday between all the packing and stuff, and was able to get the new Wiseco forged high comp piston and a spare cylinder packed into a box and sent off to Bore-tech for a bore/hone, silicone carbide treatment on the cyl wall, bead blast and paint the outside of the cyl, and also have the piston treated on top and skirts with temp coating and slippery stuff.
All of that should reduce friction & heat significantly.  
Besides, REX will now be 694.64cc.  Adding the cc's raises the comp to 9.05:1, but this piston has a raised crown (2mm) which should bring the comp up to at least 10:1.
With this added to the higher lift camshaft, REX should have a bit more muscle on his bones.   ;)   :D   ;D   8-)

http://images1f.snapfish.com/232323232%7Ffp8%3B%3B%3Enu%3D323%3A%3E639%3E697%3EWSNRCG%3D3285393%3A%3B5339nu0mrj

Title: Re: BIG JUG
Post by klx650sm2002 on 02/23/10 at 07:49:02

Hey Lancer
 Nice piston, can I stroke it  ;D

Clive W

Title: Re: BIG JUG
Post by Phelonius on 02/23/10 at 09:20:56

If you have the tooling.

Phelonius

Title: Re: BIG JUG
Post by LANCER on 02/23/10 at 10:01:02

;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Title: Re: BIG JUG
Post by verslagen1 on 02/23/10 at 10:13:34

I went for the 95's.
soon I hope to have time to mess with it.

Title: Re: BIG JUG
Post by smokin_blue on 02/23/10 at 10:20:40

Part numbers! we want part numbers please!!   ;)

Title: Re: BIG JUG
Post by LANCER on 02/24/10 at 03:58:06


3C2220242621102D233A2A4F0 wrote:
Part numbers! we want part numbers please!!   ;)



;D   ;D   ;D

 http://wiseco.com/ProductSearch.aspx


Wiseco leads the performance aftermarket by producing the highest quality pistons on the highest quality forgings. Wiseco is unique because we forge all of our own pistons in our USA manufacturing plant along with our own forge tooling. This allows us to control all aspects of our manufacturing process from raw bar to skirt coating finished parts. In addition, in-house dyno testing gives Wiseco the ability to develop state-of-the-art technology such as new shapes, coatings, and components, and lead the industry through rigorous R&D. You can learn more by viewing our Piston Information Page.  
Wiseco produces high quality American made FORGED pistons, that stand up to the test of extreme racing conditions. Every Wiseco product is engineered with the most advanced technologies, for the ultimate performance and durability in all forms of PowerSports!

 Part Number Price Boresize OverSize Attributes
 4597M09500  $195.11 95.00mm  STD  Displacement: 641cc
Stroke: 90.40mm

 4597M09600  $195.11 96.00mm  1.00mm  Displacement: 654cc
Stroke: 90.40mm

 4597M09700  $214.64 97.00mm  2.00mm  Displacement: 668cc
Stroke: 90.40mm  

** keep in mind that the 90.4mm stroke is for the DR650 engine, but the DR and LS650 use the same piston/pin/clip from '90-'95     ;)
        



Title: Re: BIG JUG
Post by John_D on 02/24/10 at 05:06:26

It'd be awesome to see some footage of you putting REX through his paces when you get him done; not sure if you have video capability though.  Still be cool to see pics of the beast. 8-)

Title: Re: BIG JUG
Post by LANCER on 02/24/10 at 05:52:37


6374757F74727A2623202123110 wrote:
It'd be awesome to see some footage of you putting REX through his paces when you get him done; not sure if you have video capability though.  Still be cool to see pics of the beast. 8-)


I do have video capability and will record as soon as practical.  Hopefully this time around there will be no oil leaks as before.
The piston & rings are new and the bore will be new; the valve guide seals are new as will be all gaskets.  So there SHOULD NOT be any leaking this time.  

Time will tell.

Title: Re: BIG JUG
Post by Rocco on 02/24/10 at 08:22:17

i expected something else when i read "big jug" hahahaha

lancer, that is awesome! almost 700cc's on that half naked beast?!?!?!?!?! i was happy after the rejet, muffler and k&n when i took the chrome rails off cuz they were so heavy! lol

pics please! how about u come down to south fla we'll do a little training and u show me how to do that! lol

Title: Re: BIG JUG
Post by LANCER on 02/24/10 at 11:48:29


704D41414D220 wrote:
i expected something else when i read "big jug" hahahaha

lancer, that is awesome! almost 700cc's on that half naked beast?!?!?!?!?! i was happy after the rejet, muffler and k&n when i took the chrome rails off cuz they were so heavy! lol

pics please! how about u come down to south fla we'll do a little training and u show me how to do that! lol


I wish I could come down, that would be a lot of fun playing with parts and all.   My one free long term ride each year is the Dragon Ride we do in this area.  The past 2 years it has been a 3-4 day trilp from door to door.  This year some of us are adding another 3 days so it will be a full week for some.  
So this is my one good deal when it comes to leaving home for an extended ride.  

Title: Re: BIG JUG
Post by rich015 on 03/12/10 at 10:31:51

Hey Lancer. Got an 86 savage I bought cheap that had a bad piston and needs bored. Dropped it off to have it bored today. They're not sure how much they'll have to go. Either .5 or 1 over. My question is... will that part number (4597M09500) you listed above work with 1 over? Or is that actually the stock bore. I guess I a little confused because I thought stock was 94mm. Thanks.

Title: Re: BIG JUG
Post by LANCER on 03/12/10 at 10:57:12

Stock bore is 94mm.  the part number I put up is for a 97mm forged high compression piston from Wiseco.
Part of the confusion may be that these pistons are listed under the Suzuki DR650 vs LS650 on their website.  For the '90-95 years they use a common piston which will work in any year Savage or S40.  
Also, the DR650 has a slightly different stroke from the LS650 so that is why you see differenty numbers for total engine size.  For the LS650 engine, a 97mm bore will take it up to 694cc.   It is a nice jump indeed, + the added benefit of the increased compression.  There will be a substantial difference from stock.
Just get the piston FIRST and then send it with the cylinder so they know exactly how to do the bore job.  
As mentioned, I send mine to Bore-tech and they do the bore, hone and silicone carbide treatment for $165.   If you are going to bore it anyway, pay the few extra bucks for the silicone carbide.  It is worth 10x the money.
The pistons sell on ebay for about $169 I believe and sometimes can be either 95mm, 96mm or 97mm and in stock or higher compression ratios.  It just depends on what is offered at the time.
Buying the pistons from Wiseco costs about $200 + a few I think, but don't quote me.

I hope this helps

Title: Re: BIG JUG
Post by rich015 on 03/12/10 at 11:19:47

So... Just so I'm clear. I need the 95 mm if they can get away with 1 over. If not how much over can they go with a stock cylinder. I think he told me they could only go 1 over with that cylinder without resleeving it. Is that right? Or can they go 2 over? Also will the wrist pin and circlips for the dr that comes in the piston kit work on this savage.

Title: Re: BIG JUG
Post by verslagen1 on 03/12/10 at 13:20:21

Stock zuki pistons are available up to 1mm over.
most likely why "he" states he can only go over by 1

Title: Re: BIG JUG
Post by BurnPgh on 03/12/10 at 13:38:30

I dont think suzuki does 1mm over anymore. On bikebandit they list the 1mm over as discontinued. You could go up to 3mm over (97) as lancer has done but the sleeve thickness is on the knifes edge of too thin and I personally wouldnt go that far without adding an oil cooler. If you're doing one over the PN you had listed is correct and the pin and clips will work. Something to think about though, if you can get the suzuki 1mm over piston its significantly cheaper than wisecos and is weighted to match the counterbalancer for "minimal" vibration, but you wont get as much gain in performance as the wiseco piston is domed for increased compression and is about an ounce lighter than a suzuki piston which would make winding out the gears quicker.

Title: Re: BIG JUG
Post by verslagen1 on 03/12/10 at 18:44:07

could of sworn I saw it when I last looked... thanksgiving?

Title: Re: BIG JUG
Post by BurnPgh on 03/12/10 at 22:56:21

nope. 23-1 on the crankshaft microfiche is .5 over. 23-2 is discontinued.

Title: Re: BIG JUG
Post by jmw0582 on 03/12/10 at 23:24:45

where can i see pics of this rex I keep hearing about?

Title: Re: BIG JUG
Post by rich015 on 03/13/10 at 00:10:05

Thanks guys. For now I am gonna HAVE to wait and see how far they have to go to make the cylinder true. They said they'll give me a call when it's done. Hopefully it'll be soon. By the looks of the cylinder to me... it should only be .5. It really doesn't look too bad, but from experience you just never know. Thats why I was sort of concerened. I couldn't find a piston for 1 over through Bike Bandit or any other site and started freaking out a little. If they only have to go .5 I'll get the oem piston and if they have to go more I'll get the wiseco 95mm, 96mm or 97 if I have to.

I bought the bike with it all torn down. Sooo..... I may need help when it comes time to putting it all back together. I feel pretty confident about things like this but...... I didn't take it apart so it's a whole different story.  I'm pretty sure I'm gonna need you guys. LOOKS LIKE ALOT OF PARTS!!! LOL


Title: Re: BIG JUG
Post by LANCER on 03/13/10 at 02:57:16


6E757F742C2D291C0 wrote:
So... Just so I'm clear. I need the 95 mm if they can get away with 1 over. If not how much over can they go with a stock cylinder. I think he told me they could only go 1 over with that cylinder without resleeving it. Is that right? Or can they go 2 over? Also will the wrist pin and circlips for the dr that comes in the piston kit work on this savage.



The cylinder will go up to 3mm over, to the 97mm.  It just depends on what you want and are comfortable with.  Others have done the 97mm before and I've never heard of a problem.  I am boosting total engine power quite a bit and have no concerns.  Actually, just 2 days ago I spoke with my contact at Bore-tech who is doing the overbore for me.  He had just completed the boring process and was preparing to hone and then do the silicone carbide treatment.  He expressed no concern whatsoever with boring the cyl to that size.  This guy does all sorts of race engine work and would KNOW if there was a possible problem with it.

And to repeat a point I made earlier, you should have the new piston first so you can send it with the cyl to be bored, so they can measure exactly on how much to bore to match the piston being used.

Bore-tech requires that the new piston be sent with the cyl for boring because they want to be exact  

Title: Re: BIG JUG
Post by LANCER on 03/13/10 at 03:15:51


2D2A3077727F75470 wrote:
where can i see pics of this rex I keep hearing about?



REX   can be found here ....   http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1248477715/0 

Title: Re: BIG JUG
Post by LANCER on 03/26/10 at 05:56:58

I received the newly worked piston and cylinder from Bore-tech yesterday and they are PERDY   :D  and the photos do not do it justice    

It cost several penny's but the end result will be worth it.

REX is now a 700 Savage
 








http://images1e.snapfish.com/232323232%7Ffp%3A83%3Enu%3D323%3A%3E639%3E697%3EWSNRCG%3D335%3A%3A9%3C765339nu0mrj

http://images1e.snapfish.com/232323232%7Ffp9%3A2%3Enu%3D323%3A%3E639%3E697%3EWSNRCG%3D335%3A%3A%3A3252339nu0mrj

http://images1f.snapfish.com/232323232%7Ffp%3A96%3Enu%3D323%3A%3E639%3E697%3EWSNRCG%3D335%3A%3A9%3C766339nu0mrj

http://images1e.snapfish.com/232323232%7Ffp9%3A3%3Enu%3D323%3A%3E639%3E697%3EWSNRCG%3D335%3A%3A%3A3254339nu0mrj

http://images1e.snapfish.com/232323232%7Ffp%3A86%3Enu%3D335%3A%3E9%3B2%3E%3A%3C3%3E244%3B9%3B2%3B%3B4248ot1lsi


Title: Re: BIG JUG
Post by bill67 on 03/26/10 at 06:01:58

 You better use some high performance Klotz racing oil in it if you want it to hold together.

Title: Re: BIG JUG
Post by LANCER on 03/26/10 at 07:02:15


363D38386263540 wrote:
 You better use some high performance Klotz racing oil in it if you want it to hold together.


I will be using Valvoline Racing oil in it.  My favorite had been Amsoil syn for a long time but in discussions with Webcam folks I decided to go with the Valvoline.   They said that it "stuck" to the cam lobes better than the syn's did.  I do not know what it is but apparently there is something in it that helps it do that.  

Back when I had my '56 Goldstar, Valvoline Racing oil was all that was ever used in it.  I bought it from a professional flatrack racer who was builder/mech/rider ... a privateer of which there were many back in the 50's and early 60's.  He was a mechanical engineer by training and was a very good bike builder.  The Goldstar was a freaking animal.  It came right off the track and I put it on the streeet.  No lights, no horm, no battery..... just a magneto, wire & plug.... that's it.  The comnression was about 11:1 I think, it was kick start only of course and no compression release ...better get it right or it would throw you.  The cam was the #1 of 5 choices for racing and the exhaust was a 1 3/4 pipe with open reverse cone megaphone.   The carb was the best available at the time, a 1 1/2" Amal Grand Prix Racing carb with seperate float bowl.  It would flow a tremendous amount of fuel and the engine needed it.  You could hear it for miles.
Riding the Goldstar on the street was a real trick.  With that race carb the engine would not idle so constant throttle attention was needed.  Since it was built for flattrack racing the thing was tuned for wide open throttle running .  When you turned the throttle on that animal it would howl and you had better have a death grip and the bars or you would not stay on.  

That was the scariest bike I have ever ridden.  Some were faster on top end but from 0-110 nothing could touch it.  The torque was enormous and it literally would stretch your arms out when you launched it on pavement.  Keeping the front wheel down was downright hard.

Anyway, the point to the whole thing was that the Valvoline Racing oil did the job on the track in a very harsh invironment so I expect that it will take care of REX nicely.  REX is not a Goldstar, but he has moved in that direction a bit.   8-)

Title: Re: BIG JUG
Post by Routy on 03/26/10 at 07:44:08

More cc's, higher expression,...... :o
What about a double gear reduction starter, along w/ a "big crank" ?? ;D

Title: Re: BIG JUG
Post by LANCER on 03/26/10 at 10:14:57


525D475C404655575F5146340 wrote:
More cc's, higher expression,...... :o
What about a double gear reduction starter, along w/ a "big crank" ?? ;D


I buy the batteries made for the big vtwins just to be sure there is enough juice to do the job

Title: Re: BIG JUG
Post by JohnBoy on 03/26/10 at 16:03:16

one big "jug",in the middle where it belongs...ain't that called a "uni-boob"?

Looks like they did a very nice job dude!
Go wake the neighbors...three blocks down!

Title: Re: BIG JUG
Post by LANCER on 03/26/10 at 16:43:49


426760664A6771080 wrote:
one big "jug",in the middle where it belongs...ain't that called a "uni-boob"?

Looks like they did a very nice job dude!
Go wake the neighbors...three blocks down!


That extra 2  points  or so of compression should add some sharp bark to the exhaust sound.

********************

I just went back and did some calculations with the new piston.
The raised area on the piston displaces 8.5cc's of the combustion chamber volume which raises the compression 1.4 pts up to 9.9:1, and the additional 3 mm bore increases cyl vol which adds another 0.6 pts, bringing the new total compression ratio to 10.5:1

Title: Re: BIG JUG
Post by Oldfeller on 03/26/10 at 19:31:17

if you want bigger, it exists ...

Trouble is your sleeve isn't big enough to hold it.

DR650 pistons and pins fit our con rod ... and they come in two year split groups, the early models started at 95mm and the later year models grouped around 100mm.

This is the basis for some of the European group's 880 and 900cc engines as the aftermarket made up kit pistons going up to 104mm

===========

All of the above is hooey of course, nobody would really DO that sort of stuff to an engine, now would they?

;D


Title: Re: BIG JUG
Post by LANCER on 03/27/10 at 03:18:39


40636B696A63636A7D0F0 wrote:
if you want bigger, it exists ...

Trouble is your sleeve isn't big enough to hold it.

DR650 pistons and pins fit our con rod ... and they come in two year split groups, the early models started at 95mm and the later year models grouped around 100mm.

This is the basis for some of the European group's 880 and 900cc engines as the aftermarket made up kit pistons going up to 104mm

===========

All of the above is hooey of course, nobody would really DO that sort of stuff to an engine, now would they?

;D



Yep, I look at the possibility of using the  100-103mm at one time since there was a new piston on ebay for really cheap at the time, but the cyl would need a new larger liner and the really big sticking point is that the cases would need to be bored to accept it  B U T  there is no room left inside the case/cyl studs for the bore to be done.
Yea, that would have been really fun to try.  It takes it up to 783cc and 10.2 CR ... and that is with a flat piston.  If it has a crown like the forged Wiseco I've got then the CR jumps to 11.5-12.  WHERE'S THE BATTERY FOR THAT ONE ?

But the LS650 case is the limiting factor and the 97mm is as big as it will go.  There is not a lot left on the bottom of the cyl liner.  I have not measured it yet but it is smaller to be sure.

Title: Re: BIG JUG
Post by Oldfeller on 03/27/10 at 09:23:33

I looked since some Europeans have done it -- you'd buy a custom liner and machine out the aluminum fin block and machine out the cases and you'd go all the way out to hit the studs (means an outside oil line) and after all that you'd maybe get 40-45 hp out of a cammed engine.

For a while, while fighting custom head gaskets and base gaskets and all the related bits and pieces until it comes apart on you.

Or, you can just go out and buy a Sneaky Pete Nitrous kit and bolt on 25 quick and easy hp and trash your engine just about as durn quick for only $220 invested in the nitrous kit, which you could then move somewhere else later after you finished burning up a Savage engine or two.

=====


I resisted that evil thought though .....  my heart is pure   ;D


Title: Re: BIG JUG
Post by Toymaker on 03/28/10 at 04:28:07

Lancer, how much difference in weight is there between the old piston and new.  If there is much difference, wouldn't that mess with the counterweigh and be hard on main beariings?

Title: Re: BIG JUG
Post by LANCER on 03/28/10 at 09:56:39


053934053E283C303A3423510 wrote:
Lancer, how much difference in weight is there between the old piston and new.  If there is much difference, wouldn't that mess with the counterweigh and be hard on main beariings?



I will check the weight

Title: Re: BIG JUG
Post by verslagen1 on 03/28/10 at 10:09:48

phelonius added wt. to his so must be a little lighter.
end result was the counter balancer going for a walk.

Title: Re: BIG JUG
Post by LANCER on 03/29/10 at 05:13:12


302334352A2721232877460 wrote:
phelonius added wt. to his so must be a little lighter.
end result was the counter balancer going for a walk.


that is not exactly a good thing

Title: Re: BIG JUG
Post by LANCER on 04/24/10 at 13:03:52


360A07360D1B0F03090710620 wrote:
Lancer, how much difference in weight is there between the old piston and new.  If there is much difference, wouldn't that mess with the counterweigh and be hard on main beariings?



I finally manage to get the weights of stock 94mm piston vs Wiseco forged 97mm piston

94mm stock is 371 grams
97mm Wisco is 369 grams

That is pretty close and I would not think 2 grams, or 0.5% wt difference would make trouble with the counter crank/balance system.

But I am shooting from the hip here, I am not an engineer so if someone with credentials can shed some finer light on the subject I would like to hear your professional opinion.

Title: Re: BIG JUG
Post by Phelonius on 04/24/10 at 15:12:37

My piston was one silly millimeter smaller than the one you are working with and it was 33 grams lighter than the one I took out.
BTW when you compared piston weights did you include the weight of the piston pin?  You must use the new pin with the new piston.  It is signifigantly shorter than the stock one.
If you only have 2 grams difference, you should be okay.
The web thickness of the cylinder sleeve at the bottom should not be less than 2 mm thick. On my engine I ended up with just barely 3mm
With your 97mm piston you are at the hairy edge of limit for how much you can bore the cylinder.  Hope it works better than mine.

Phelonius

Title: Re: BIG JUG
Post by LANCER on 04/24/10 at 17:33:47


526A676E6D6C6B7771020 wrote:
My piston was one silly millimeter smaller than the one you are working with and it was 33 grams lighter than the one I took out.
BTW when you compared piston weights did you include the weight of the piston pin?  You must use the new pin with the new piston.  It is signifigantly shorter than the stock one.
If you only have 2 grams difference, you should be okay.
The web thickness of the cylinder sleeve at the bottom should not be less than 2 mm thick. On my engine I ended up with just barely 3mm
With your 97mm piston you are at the hairy edge of limit for how much you can bore the cylinder.  Hope it works better than mine.

Phelonius

I don't remember exactly but the bottom of the cyl was a bit over 2...somehthing like 2.3 or close to 2.4mm

You are right about the pin on the new piston being shorter, now that you mention it, but I did not include the pins in the weighing, just the pistons.  The forged piston is physically smaller at the skirts but I assume because it is forged that the more tightly packed molecules make a more dense material and make up for the reduced material.

Also, keep in mind that this piston is for the DR650, 90-95, during which time it shared the same piston with the LS650.  Now if Wisco is confident that this piston/pin will work just fine in a faster turning DR engine with shorter stroke then there should be no problem with our engines either.  Both work basically the same way, share some common paarts, so the slight wt difference must not be an issue, otherwise they would have stopped production 15-20 yrs ago.

Title: Re: BIG JUG
Post by einheit13 on 04/24/10 at 18:42:33

This has nothing to do with a Savage, but when I big bored and stroked my 75 ironhead, the pistons that came with the cylinders looked much like yours (exceot mine had shorter skirts-just past the pin to clear the wheels) and I called and questioned it. I was told quite frankly that it reduces the side loading on the pin bushings. Dunno why, but it must work because I never had any excessive side to side play or rod twist using those pistons.
I even got a set for another 75 with a stockish bore (20 over) and noticed that the rods and pin bushings were in better shape than with the OEM style pistons after 58,912 miles. I also noticed a decrease in vibration at higher reves vs stock pistons.

Great choice on oil. Castrol was always my favorite (all the brits I've owned got it) till I couldn't find straight weights anymore. So my sporty's got fed a diet of straight 60wt Valvoline as well as the trans and i noticed right off the bat that the engine ran cooler and quieter. It does cling quite well too-plays havoc with clutches if you happen to get too much in there. When you drain it out it taks a while for it to come off!

Are you knife edging the the wheels?? Maybe an AMAL Mk2 concentric or Smooth Bore??

Title: Re: BIG JUG
Post by LANCER on 04/25/10 at 08:39:02


505C5B5D505C410406350 wrote:
This has nothing to do with a Savage, but when I big bored and stroked my 75 ironhead, the pistons that came with the cylinders looked much like yours (exceot mine had shorter skirts-just past the pin to clear the wheels) and I called and questioned it. I was told quite frankly that it reduces the side loading on the pin bushings. Dunno why, but it must work because I never had any excessive side to side play or rod twist using those pistons.
I even got a set for another 75 with a stockish bore (20 over) and noticed that the rods and pin bushings were in better shape than with the OEM style pistons after 58,912 miles. I also noticed a decrease in vibration at higher reves vs stock pistons.

Great choice on oil. Castrol was always my favorite (all the brits I've owned got it) till I couldn't find straight weights anymore. So my sporty's got fed a diet of straight 60wt Valvoline as well as the trans and i noticed right off the bat that the engine ran cooler and quieter. It does cling quite well too-plays havoc with clutches if you happen to get too much in there. When you drain it out it taks a while for it to come off!

Are you knife edging the the wheels?? Maybe an AMAL Mk2 concentric or Smooth Bore??  


Not sure what you mean by knife edging the wheels.  I've not heard of it.

No Amal available unfortunately, I use to have a whole shelf full of 36/38mm Mk II's but sold them all.  I should have kept at least one of each.
I currently have a 38mm Eelbrock Quicksilver and a 36mm VM modified a bit to play with, and several nice adons for it from thunder products, fun stuff.

after breaking a new piston ring and having to order a new set, I finally got the piston & cyl on the case and going to throw some clay on the piston and set the head on to check for clearance, so if all is well then it all gets bolted down, and on to closing it up so I can try to start it and hopefully it actually starts and runs properly

Title: Re: BIG JUG
Post by RidgeRunner13 on 04/25/10 at 10:08:03

Lancer, he's referring to reshaping the crankshaft weights. you lighten & reshape the crank to be more aerodynamic ( really hydrodynamic, since it goes thru oil).
I think if you find a good machine shop that understands high performance, you could lighten the crank AND balancer. Then have the whole rotating assembly balanced. It will run smoother & with the lightened rotating weight, rev quicker. Unless you do something stupid, it will last longer too. 8-)

I raced an Opel GT for several years with a crank & rods I lightened & polished, then had balanced. It would rev to about 8500 rpm, then the #3 intake valves' weight would cause a problem. Rules didn't allow me to change to a lighter valve material, but a man in Connecticut  was turning 10 grand with his.  ;D

BTW, the pistons I used in the Opel were 95mm flat tops. I still have the pistons & have wondered how much different they are from a Savage. :-/

Title: Re: BIG JUG
Post by einheit13 on 04/25/10 at 10:37:18


5E65686B695E796262697E3D3F0C0 wrote:
Lancer, he's referring to reshaping the crankshaft weights. you lighten & reshape the crank to be more aerodynamic ( really hydrodynamic, since it goes thru oil).
I think if you find a good machine shop that understands high performance, you could lighten the crank AND balancer. Then have the whole rotating assembly balanced. It will run smoother & with the lightened rotating weight, rev quicker. Unless you do something stupid, it will last longer too. 8-)

I raced an Opel GT for several years with a crank & rods I lightened & polished, then had balanced. It would rev to about 8500 rpm, then the #3 intake valves' weight would cause a problem. Rules didn't allow me to change to a lighter valve material, but a man in Connecticut  was turning 10 grand with his.  ;D

BTW, the pistons I used in the Opel were 95mm flat tops. I still have the pistons & have wondered how much different they are from a Savage. :-/

Yep, what he said...lol.. I have the wheels knife edged on all HP set ups and then a complete blance and blueprint. I'm doing it now on my Dad's 05 Bonneville. Its great for releiving stress on bearings. I also clean up all the casting marks and 'flash' from the engine. That does wonders for stopping cracks in cast parts since it excess mateial in castings will add/change harmonics.

Stock crank...
http://www.aperaceparts.com/resources/cranks/lotsacranks.jpg

Knife edged..
http://www.aperaceparts.com/resources/cranks/crank22.jpg

Title: Re: BIG JUG
Post by RidgeRunner13 on 04/25/10 at 10:46:47

Hours & hours with a die grinder & various 'attachments' to smooth out the block & heads, polished oil returns, rounded over all edges so nothing left with an edge to cut you. ;D
The owner of the machine shop I used would say I didn't leave him a lot to do. By doing my own work & assembling my own engines, I was spending 25% of what my competitors were. 8-)

Title: Re: BIG JUG
Post by LANCER on 04/25/10 at 14:16:29

I can see why it would work better that way.  I would think that at crank speeds the contact with the case oil would be a significant drag on the system and doing that kind of work to reshape the crank would reduce that a lot.

Besides, machined metal is just pretty to look at.   :)

Title: Re: BIG JUG
Post by RidgeRunner13 on 04/25/10 at 14:49:38

I also used a crank scraper fitted to the edge of the block & a windage tray to help keep oil in the pan. The pan was fitted with a larger sump area & trap doors to keep oil near the pick-up.
I ran 60 psi oil pressure max, ran Castrol 20w50 for break-in, changed to Mobil One 15w50 after one week. Never had a oil-pressure related failure. Keep in mind this was a hand built, balanced & blue-printed engine. Nothing was left as the factory made it.
There is definetely HP to be gained by controlling what happens in the crankcase. 8-)

Title: Re: BIG JUG
Post by MotoBuddha on 11/29/10 at 19:16:46

Hey Lancer, do you have any experience with ProCycle's 725cc kit?

http://www.procycle.us/bikepages/dr650.html
http://www.procycle.us/info/questions/dr650/engine.html#725_kit_quest

Title: Re: BIG JUG
Post by Oldfeller on 11/29/10 at 19:27:00


Lancer is at the hospital with his wife, he won't be responding.

You can go up to 97mm with boring out the existing sleeve (marginal wall thickness on the sleeve when you do this)-.

You can resleeve to 100mm without interfering too badly with the studs

We have some list history with 95mm & 97mm bore jobs working out OK

We got NO sucess stories with the bigger resleeve bore jobs

There are a variety of year models of DR650 with hop up pistons that will "fit" but are the wrong weight to balance out the primary crank balance (too light)

The 95 year model and earlier DR650 uses the same piston configuration as the Savage and will come "close" to primary balance.

We had one engine bust off the counterbalancer complete (broke the main crank housing) where an insert slug from inside the piston wrist pin that was intended to fix the balance issue got loose when the piston blew and the bits and pieces got into the gearing that ran the counterbalancer.   This happened at 60 mph on the interstate .....

Hey, you know what a Frankie bike is?   Going too far with the mods can give you one -- they go like a bat out of hell for a week or so and then break down for yet one more brand new reason.



         and yes, your mileage may vary .....

Title: Re: BIG JUG
Post by MotoBuddha on 03/26/11 at 08:27:22

Here are the weights of the stock and 97mm pistons with their wrist pins, no rings:

http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk182/motobuddha/503be630.jpg
http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk182/motobuddha/ca0fcb12.jpg

Those convert to 480.5g and 455g

Title: Re: BIG JUG
Post by verslagen1 on 04/30/11 at 12:53:40

On the box of the wiseco piston kit, it says 0.0025" clearance.

Is that correct for our little savage?

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