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4 vs. 5 speed transmissions (Read 598 times)
savagedml
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4 vs. 5 speed transmissions
12/21/08 at 19:39:32
 
Can anyone verify that the '03 Savage was offered with a 4-speed transmission? Also performance wise I would appreciate any info you guys could give me on a 4-speed vs a 5-speed transmission. Does the VIN number on the bike frame indicate type of transmission?

Thanks
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Re: 4 vs. 5 speed transmissions
Reply #1 - 12/21/08 at 19:42:40
 
to my knowledge, anything post 95 has a 5 speed tranny.
If it doesn't then someone swapped out the engine.
none
and no.
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savagedml
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Re: 4 vs. 5 speed transmissions
Reply #2 - 12/21/08 at 19:45:35
 
Thanks for the info.
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Re: 4 vs. 5 speed transmissions
Reply #3 - 12/21/08 at 23:19:24
 
95 + is all 5 speed from the factory. The 5th gear on my 95 is unnecessary. It's nice to have but really doesn't drop rpms. It's more like an overdrive. Get up to speed in 1-4 then just cruise in 5th.
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Re: 4 vs. 5 speed transmissions
Reply #4 - 01/05/09 at 03:31:23
 
Ok, I know I'm a mechanical nublet but here's my question.

I have an '87 LS650 with 4 speed box, but find it rev's way too high for me on the open road.  Is it possible to put a 5 speed box in?  If I'm able ot get one from a wrecker that is.
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Re: 4 vs. 5 speed transmissions
Reply #5 - 01/05/09 at 05:01:55
 
Yes, but your RPM drop would be negligible.
Far easier and far more effective to switch to a chain drive final so you can adjust the final drive ratio to suit your preferences.
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Re: 4 vs. 5 speed transmissions
Reply #6 - 01/05/09 at 05:10:31
 
savagedml wrote on 12/21/08 at 19:39:32:
Can anyone verify that the '03 Savage was offered with a 4-speed transmission?

An '03 with a four speed transmission?  If you find one then quite likely someone with an '80's vintage Savage, with many miles on the engine, bought a low mileage '03.  He then swapped engines and sold the '03.  That would be the cheapest way to get a fairly new engine.  You might even make money on the deal.
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Re: 4 vs. 5 speed transmissions
Reply #7 - 01/05/09 at 06:14:08
 
  Ecclesnz the five speed rev's way to high too,why with all the torque and going to a 5 speed they didn't have it rev less,I can't figure out.I think thats why you see a lot of low mileage S40 for sell.It my biggest disappointment of the motorcycle.
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Re: 4 vs. 5 speed transmissions
Reply #8 - 01/05/09 at 17:28:42
 
According to the owner's manual for the five-speed, it turns 4000 rpm at 60 mph in fifth (Page 4-2 under the break-in procedure). For a motorcycle engine that isn't particularly high rpm. If one seriously desires lower engine rpm, displacement needs to be increased to increase torque, then change overall gearing so the same torque ends up going to the drive wheel. In the part-throttle range (cruising) one can increase torque by simply opening the throttle a bit more to make up for the taller gearing. You end up with an engine operating at lower speed, but higher cylinder pressures.
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Re: 4 vs. 5 speed transmissions
Reply #9 - 01/05/09 at 17:51:30
 
   I had a Suzuki GR 650 geared it 1000 rpm less than stock in high gear,drove it 25000 miles never had a problem with it,Never even had to clean the carbs. Used pure gasoline in it.Torquey engines can be geared high, High speed engines geared low.
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« Last Edit: 01/05/09 at 20:15:14 by bill67 »  

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Re: 4 vs. 5 speed transmissions
Reply #10 - 01/06/09 at 11:58:27
 
Ecclesnz

You basically have 2 options

- put on the biggest rear wheel you possibly can (I managed
to put on a 140/90/15 Kenda challenger w/no problems)
look here: http://www.bikepics.com/pictures/1062017/

or

- lose the band and get a chain & sprockets (custom job),
this way you can get any combination you want
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Re: 4 vs. 5 speed transmissions
Reply #11 - 01/08/09 at 06:44:36
 
Back in September of 1996, when Suzuki reissued the Savage, Motorcycle Consumer News ran a test on it. I happen to have kept that issue, because of that test. In it they published their rear-wheel torque and horsepower curve. The torque curve looks rather "peaky" to me. Max torque was 30.5 lb. ft. at about 3700 rpm; max hp was 24.6 at 5000 (the high end of their published curve).

Reading from their graph:
2500 rpm (bottom); 13 lb-ft and 6 hp.
3000 rpm; 22 lb-ft and 12 hp.
3500 rpm; 30 lb-ft and 20 hp.
4000 rpm; 30 lb-ft and 23 hp.
4500 rpm; 28 lb-ft and 24 hp.
5000 rpm; 26 lb-ft and 24.6 hp.

Vehicle designers typically like to gear their vehicles so that, at what they consider to be cruise speed, the engine is turning just a bit over the torque peak. This makes the vehicle easier to operate, as whenever speed drops from some increase in load (up a hill) the engine "automatically" moves to a speed where it develops higher torque. The stock Savage seems to like cruising at 60 - 65 mph, which is just over the max torque speed. I'd have to say they did their homework. By the way, maximum torque speed is also the speed at which the engine is most efficient (least internal losses). One must bear in mind that torque curves are always generated at wide-open throttle, it always being possible to reduce torque by closing the throttle.

EDITED TO ADD:

Some time back, in another thread, I calculated that the Savage develops about 12 horsepower at 60 mph. From the owner's manual the Savage is turning about 4000 rpm at 60 mph. Using my old D-4 circular slide rule (Property of U. S. Army Air Forces) that comes to about 16 lb-ft of torque, roughly half the available torque at that speed. If we change the gearing to slow the engine while keeping the same road speed, we must increase the torque so the product of torque and speed (power) remains constant, or else the speed will change. Dropping the speed to 3500, the torque must increase to about 18 lb-ft, closer to two-thirds of the available torque. Dropping the speed to 3000, the required torque increases to about 21 lb-ft. But at 3000 the available torque is only about 22 lb-ft. Almost wide-open throttle would be required. In terms of pumping loss this is pretty efficient, but wide-open throttle results in pretty high cylinder pressures and temperatures. My guess is it might result in detonation and short engine life, but I'll happily defer to those with actual rather than theoretical knowledge for the definitive answer.
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« Last Edit: 01/08/09 at 09:20:50 by Charon »  

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Re: 4 vs. 5 speed transmissions
Reply #12 - 01/08/09 at 06:55:50
 
  Cars are geared a lot higher now than they were in the 50's and 60's and their torque and horsepower is at a lot higher rpm,and they get a lot better mpg now.A 1980 Dodge truck straight 6 had   maxs torque at 1200 rpm.that was about 20 mph in high gear
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« Last Edit: 01/08/09 at 09:34:32 by bill67 »  

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Re: 4 vs. 5 speed transmissions
Reply #13 - 01/09/09 at 00:54:58
 
Charon wrote on 01/08/09 at 06:44:36:
Back in September of 1996, when Suzuki reissued the Savage, Motorcycle Consumer News ran a test on it. I happen to have kept that issue, because of that test. In it they published their rear-wheel torque and horsepower curve. The torque curve looks rather "peaky" to me. Max torque was 30.5 lb. ft. at about 3700 rpm; max hp was 24.6 at 5000 (the high end of their published curve).

Reading from their graph:
2500 rpm (bottom); 13 lb-ft and 6 hp.
3000 rpm; 22 lb-ft and 12 hp.
3500 rpm; 30 lb-ft and 20 hp.
4000 rpm; 30 lb-ft and 23 hp.
4500 rpm; 28 lb-ft and 24 hp.
5000 rpm; 26 lb-ft and 24.6 hp.

Vehicle designers typically like to gear their vehicles so that, at what they consider to be cruise speed, the engine is turning just a bit over the torque peak. This makes the vehicle easier to operate, as whenever speed drops from some increase in load (up a hill) the engine "automatically" moves to a speed where it develops higher torque. The stock Savage seems to like cruising at 60 - 65 mph, which is just over the max torque speed. I'd have to say they did their homework. By the way, maximum torque speed is also the speed at which the engine is most efficient (least internal losses). One must bear in mind that torque curves are always generated at wide-open throttle, it always being possible to reduce torque by closing the throttle.

EDITED TO ADD:

Some time back, in another thread, I calculated that the Savage develops about 12 horsepower at 60 mph. From the owner's manual the Savage is turning about 4000 rpm at 60 mph. Using my old D-4 circular slide rule (Property of U. S. Army Air Forces) that comes to about 16 lb-ft of torque, roughly half the available torque at that speed. If we change the gearing to slow the engine while keeping the same road speed, we must increase the torque so the product of torque and speed (power) remains constant, or else the speed will change. Dropping the speed to 3500, the torque must increase to about 18 lb-ft, closer to two-thirds of the available torque. Dropping the speed to 3000, the required torque increases to about 21 lb-ft. But at 3000 the available torque is only about 22 lb-ft. Almost wide-open throttle would be required. In terms of pumping loss this is pretty efficient, but wide-open throttle results in pretty high cylinder pressures and temperatures. My guess is it might result in detonation and short engine life, but I'll happily defer to those with actual rather than theoretical knowledge for the definitive answer.



I sure would like to see your thinking on the chain conversion & the approximate 10% increase in gearing.
Would that be enough to put the engine at risk?
What about the jetting/exhaust changes? How do they impact the torque @RPM? Have to hit the dyno to know?
Its about 3 am, I am pooped & brain uis scrambled, so, if this is too disjointed to bother with, Ill try to ask again in a way thats decipherable.maybe.. Thanks./
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Re: 4 vs. 5 speed transmissions
Reply #14 - 01/10/09 at 09:18:22
 
Moving from "4 vs. 5 speed transmissions" to "Thoughts on Chain Conversion and Dynamometer Testing" seems like a bit of a thread hijack, but if no one objects...

Chain conversion and gear ratio changing are two different, but related, subjects. The chain allows easier ratio changes (because sprockets are more readily available than pulleys and because changing the length of a chain is easier), which is why it is almost universal on racing bikes. Compared to a belt it is also noisier and messier, but narrower and less subject to damage from rocks getting caught in it. The Savage seems notorious for squeaking belts, so the noise issue may be moot.

The 10% change in ratio will probably not cause damage, and might just possibly give better fuel mileage. It would move the engine from about 4000 at 60 mph to about 3600 (coincidently, the governed RPM of an awful lot of Briggs & Stratton engines), still near the torque peak. But it will also raise the ratios of all the other gears, and might result in such things as having to use third instead of fourth in traffic, or having to use more throttle and clutch to start up a steep hill.

I have been suspicious of dynamometer tests for a long time. My main concern is that they are always run at wide-open throttle, so the only carburetion issue they check is main jet size. If the engine isn't operated at part-throttle, the needle jet and needle position, let alone the pilot jet, is never checked. Since few motorcycles are operated at wide-open throttle for any significant time, it seems to me the dynamometer tests don't bear much relation to the way people use motorcycles.
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