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Cam and followers gone on an 8000 mile bike (Read 1033 times)
KwakNut
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Cam and followers gone on an 8000 mile bike
01/19/08 at 04:56:42
 
I bought this bike very cheap (£250, about $480) because it had a bit of a tapping sound at the top end, and a lot of the alloy and chrome was pitted due to neglect, it had the wrong front mudguard, the tank and side panels have been badly aerosol sprayed and the rear fender has been brush painted.
That aside, it had good tyres and brakes and had just passed its annual MOT (a UK legal road safety test).


It was tapping and I suspected that could be the cam chain problem, so I bought it and rode it a couple of miles home on a dark and rainy night.  It seemed to be running just fine, but these things really don’t have any power for a 650, do they?

Anyway, yesterday I started to worry when I got the bike up on the lift and drained the oil – there was nothing showing in the sight glass and maybe a pint came out, not 1.8 litres.  This could be bad – what kind of muppet doesn’t put oil in his bike???

Stripping the bike I found the cam tensioner was out by maybe half an inch – I’ll weld on the mod but that wasn’t the problem.  I was also delighted with the state of the bore, the honing looks like new and everything is good and tight.  However, when I looked closer at the bits I took off, I found these:


I guess that's what you can expect when you don't put oil in a bike - at least the bore and bottom end were oiled and ok.  The exhaust cam and follower are worn down by nearly a mm each, and the inlet lobe is chipped too – you can see the scuffs on the inlet follower.  Time to find somebody who’s dismantling a good motor – I dread to think what a new cam and followers would be from a dealer.

While it's apart I'll port the head (the exhaust side is horribly restrictive) and I’ll put before and after pictures up later today.  I was also thinking of skimming the head or barrel to up the compression a little, but while there’s about 4mm of free cylinder above the piston to play with, the valves protrude all the way in when open, and I don’t want to start recessing a standard cast piston in case it weakens it too much.  Anybody know how much you can skim off these before you have to recess?

Main jet was already a 155, the needle spacer is long gone and the slow screw was 2 ¾ out.  I’ll keep that as it is until I’ve tried running her with ported head and freeflow filter, then see what she runs like.

I can see the restrictive nature of the exhaust too – I priced up a Raask header over here in the UK and they’re £140 for the 50mm slash-cut custom pipe and £180 for the 60mm drag pipe.  I’m just wanting the one with the 1.5” internal bore, like this which was posted on here:
Can anybody confirm which Raask system has the 1.5" ID?




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azjay
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Re: Cam and followers gone on an 8000 mile bike
Reply #1 - 01/19/08 at 06:20:47
 
good catch! you caught that thing prior to complete engine failure, i think the sight glass is the dumbest thing in whole world  Angry
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Re: Cam and followers gone on an 8000 mile bike
Reply #2 - 01/19/08 at 06:31:59
 
Confirm?  That's my photo and pipe.

Man, those rockers are really bad.  I bet the valves weren't adjusted correctly either.  Just shows what someone can do to a bike without having a manual (hate to think they actually had one).

Get a new cam shaft from Lancer...I did.

What do the bearing journals look like in the headcover?

At least it has a fork brace Tongue
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KwakNut
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Re: Cam and followers gone on an 8000 mile bike
Reply #3 - 01/19/08 at 08:16:36
 
Yes, I borrowed the photo from another post on here, still need to know which of the Raask pipes was in the photo - was it the 50mm custom with slash cut tail or the 60mm drag with straight cut tail?

If I can’t find a good used cam I may try Lancer for one of his.  The cheapest I can get a factory cam new is £95 plus carriage, plus about £82 for the rocker arms which are also toast.

The guy actually had an original Suzuki workshop manual - but didn't think to check his oil level, even when the engine was getting noisy.

Cam bearing journals are okay, not a mark on them - which is lucky on a head with no cam shells!

As for the fork brace, it’s come off and it’s staying off.  The guy who had this bike really should be shot if he ever goes near a toolbox again.  The brace was a bodged from something to fit another bike, and the resulting mess was held together by 4 little short M6 cap heads – about as stiff as a banana – and he’d ‘custom fit’ it to the LS’s forks by taking a Dremel or something to the inside of the brace sleeves – producing a fit that was out of round by nearly a mm, and he’d compensated by wrapping blue electrical tape round the forks before clamping it all together.  I’ve never seen such a shoddy piece of workmanship before on a bike.





So, it’s brace off – I quite like the cleaner look without it, and to be honest I enjoy scratching on a tricked-up ZX12-R so all I want from this bike is something to pootle around on locally, don’t really care if it handles as long as I have enough power to get past cars round town.
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Yonuh Adisi FSO
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Re: Cam and followers gone on an 8000 mile bike
Reply #4 - 01/19/08 at 09:22:46
 
KwakNut wrote on 01/19/08 at 04:56:42:
I bought this bike very cheap (£250, about $480) because it had a bit of a tapping sound at the top end, and a lot of the alloy and chrome was pitted due to neglect, it had the wrong front mudguard, the tank and side panels have been badly aerosol sprayed and the rear fender has been brush painted.
That aside, it had good tyres and brakes and had just passed its annual MOT (a UK legal road safety test).
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e367/5000SE/Ls650Savage1.jpg

It was tapping and I suspected that could be the cam chain problem, so I bought it and rode it a couple of miles home on a dark and rainy night.  It seemed to be running just fine, but these things really don’t have any power for a 650, do they?



Actually these Savages have quite a bit of power, but you have probably already realized that the lack of power from yours was due to the mangled cam and followers.

When working properly you can almost snap your head off of your neck when taking off too hard.  Wink Wink
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Check out Flight of Destiny http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00H9130XC
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LANCER
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Re: Cam and followers gone on an 8000 mile bike
Reply #5 - 01/19/08 at 09:34:24
 
I just sent some camshafts off this past week to be reworked into some fine power & torque producing works of art, and as of today I have one that is not called for.

I may also have a set of used but usable rocker arms (followers) that would work for you.  If you got the Performance Camshaft I would throw in the followers for just a small stack of coins.

Let me know if you have an interest.
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KwakNut
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Re: Cam and followers gone on an 8000 mile bike
Reply #6 - 01/19/08 at 09:36:51
 
Yonuh Adisi FSO wrote on 01/19/08 at 09:22:46:
Actually these Savages have quite a bit of power, but you have probably already realized that the lack of power from yours was due to the mangled cam and followers.

When working properly you can almost snap your head off of your neck when taking off too hard.  Wink Wink

I've tried a couple of others that are running fine, and thought they were really flat too.

My other bikes are a 1986 ZL1000 Eliminator running stage3 filters and dynojet, which will out-drag most sports bikes to about 75, and a ZX12-R with nitrous that puts out around 250bhp at the crank and over 200bhp through the back wheel.

30bhp just isn’t enough - I don't see how any bike with less than 100bhp can be a neck-snapper even with low gearing.  I’ve recently had a GasGas 400 enduro and a KTM 450, both of which produce about 45bhp, and they’re not that quick, but the poor old Savage is positively slow.

I’m afraid I do find the Savages to be very under-powered – but they’re still cute!  
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KwakNut
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Re: Cam and followers gone on an 8000 mile bike
Reply #7 - 01/19/08 at 18:28:53
 
LANCER wrote on 01/19/08 at 09:34:24:
I just sent some camshafts off this past week to be reworked into some fine power & torque producing works of art, and as of today I have one that is not called for.

I may also have a set of used but usable rocker arms (followers) that would work for you.  If you got the Performance Camshaft I would throw in the followers for just a small stack of coins.

Let me know if you have an interest.
Just sorted a deal with Lancer  - this guy is a star!!
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KwakNut
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Re: Cam and followers gone on an 8000 mile bike
Reply #8 - 01/19/08 at 20:08:56
 
Okay, here we go - before and after shots of porting, just stage 1 stuff with standard valve sizes, nothing radical.
The information below is intended as guidance for the novice to reassure those not familiar with motorcycle maintenance that it's not really all that difficult to port a head - the experts will know more than this, I'm not trying to teach grandma to suck eggs!

Inlet port  
The inlet port is actually pretty good as it comes, it's not a restriction on the motor excpet for the really silly protruding screw coming through the ceiling - maybe not on all bikes!:



Exhaust port  
The most work is here.  I was amazed at how restrictive this port is - it has to be a deliberate design to keep the power down to levels required for certain European and Japanese license categories.  Let's fix it!! :



Chamber  
With standard valve sizes, the key is blending the ridge between valve seat and port (they can be BIG steps), and de-shrouding the valve recesses (get rid of sharp edges, but don't remove too much material or you can drop the compression ratio a little).  Watch those valve seats - one 'doh' with a grinder or sand wheel and you'll be hours grinding the valve in deep enought to cover your error!!:


Inlet manifold
Don't forget the misalignment of the inlet - and the same will apply to the neck of your exhaust.  Just make a template and trim the plastic/rubber to suit.


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Yonuh Adisi FSO
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Re: Cam and followers gone on an 8000 mile bike
Reply #9 - 01/19/08 at 20:46:57
 
KwakNut wrote on 01/19/08 at 09:36:51:
Yonuh Adisi FSO wrote on 01/19/08 at 09:22:46:
Actually these Savages have quite a bit of power, but you have probably already realized that the lack of power from yours was due to the mangled cam and followers.

When working properly you can almost snap your head off of your neck when taking off too hard.  Wink Wink

I've tried a couple of others that are running fine, and thought they were really flat too.

My other bikes are a 1986 ZL1000 Eliminator running stage3 filters and dynojet, which will out-drag most sports bikes to about 75, and a ZX12-R with nitrous that puts out around 250bhp at the crank and over 200bhp through the back wheel.

30bhp just isn’t enough - I don't see how any bike with less than 100bhp can be a neck-snapper even with low gearing.  I’ve recently had a GasGas 400 enduro and a KTM 450, both of which produce about 45bhp, and they’re not that quick, but the poor old Savage is positively slow.

I’m afraid I do find the Savages to be very under-powered – but they’re still cute!  


After being used to the power of those bike set-ups, no wonder you believe the Savage is underpowered  Wink . You're right, they are cute.  Grin
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Check out Flight of Destiny http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00H9130XC
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Re: Cam and followers gone on an 8000 mile bike
Reply #10 - 01/20/08 at 06:07:37
 
KwakNut wrote on 01/19/08 at 08:16:36:
Yes, I borrowed the photo from another post on here, still need to know which of the Raask pipes was in the photo - was it the 50mm custom with slash cut tail or the 60mm drag with straight cut tail?

If I can’t find a good used cam I may try Lancer for one of his.  The cheapest I can get a factory cam new is £95 plus carriage, plus about £82 for the rocker arms which are also toast.

The guy actually had an original Suzuki workshop manual - but didn't think to check his oil level, even when the engine was getting noisy.

Cam bearing journals are okay, not a mark on them - which is lucky on a head with no cam shells!

As for the fork brace, it’s come off and it’s staying off.  The guy who had this bike really should be shot if he ever goes near a toolbox again.  The brace was a bodged from something to fit another bike, and the resulting mess was held together by 4 little short M6 cap heads – about as stiff as a banana – and he’d ‘custom fit’ it to the LS’s forks by taking a Dremel or something to the inside of the brace sleeves – producing a fit that was out of round by nearly a mm, and he’d compensated by wrapping blue electrical tape round the forks before clamping it all together.  I’ve never seen such a shoddy piece of workmanship before on a bike.

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e367/5000SE/MicronBrace1.jpg
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e367/5000SE/Micronbrace2.jpg


So, it’s brace off – I quite like the cleaner look without it, and to be honest I enjoy scratching on a tricked-up ZX12-R so all I want from this bike is something to pootle around on locally, don’t really care if it handles as long as I have enough power to get past cars round town.

Still need to know?  Geez man.  If you do a little looking around you'll find that Raask is only making the 60MM pipe, but you can order the straight or slash cut.
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Re: Cam and followers gone on an 8000 mile bike
Reply #11 - 01/20/08 at 06:14:57
 
Savage_Greg wrote on 01/20/08 at 06:07:37:
Still need to know?  Geez man.  If you do a little looking around you'll find that Raask is only making the 60MM pipe, but you can order the straight or slash cut.

Thanks for that - rest assured I'd been doing a LOT of looking around.
The retailers in the UK are quoting both as available, and the Raask website shows both.
I'll try again speaking with one of the retailers.

Still trying to confirm inside diameters of the Raask 50/60mm pipes - anybody know???
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KwakNut
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Re: Cam and followers gone on an 8000 mile bike
Reply #12 - 02/04/08 at 14:33:18
 
Latest step in the renovation.  Should have taken a shot before I started - they were pretty furry.

Looking better now!


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Re: Cam and followers gone on an 8000 mile bike
Reply #13 - 02/05/08 at 15:51:35
 
How did you get that good polish on those covers?  Are they clearcoated?
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KwakNut
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Re: Cam and followers gone on an 8000 mile bike
Reply #14 - 02/08/08 at 10:42:06
 
Savage_Greg wrote on 02/05/08 at 15:51:35:
How did you get that good polish on those covers?  Are they clearcoated?
Just old fashioned 8 inch buffing wheels and course/medium/fine polishing soaps.  A whole lot quicker than going down the 400/800/1200 grade wet'n'dry work.  I like to finish with Alu Belgom and a soft rag - I think that's the best metal polish for the finishing touch, seems a bit finer than most of the others.
I don't like coating the alloy when polished - too much risk that it will chip/peel/discolour and look worse than ever.  I just lightly buff it with metal polish every few weeks once it's done, just a half hour job to go over the whole bike, and a good excuse to crack open a beer or two.
Belgom has some wax in it, so when you've polished there is some protection against moisture, but I always put put a good auto body wax on top of the polished alloy as well - I prefer Autoglym, but any good wax will protect the alloy.  I even use wax on exhaust chrome.
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