SuzukiSavage.com - Do we need a better cam chain?

KenGLong

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Re: Do we need a better cam chain?
Reply #90 - 08/02/07 at 18:47:05

skrapiron -FSO wrote on 12/31/69 at 16:00:08:

I have a slightly different take on the cam chain issue.

I stopped in to my local stealer-ship and talked to one of the lead service techs.

He told me that, starting with the mid-2004 model, Suzuki introduced a better cam chain tensioner device.

He said the way to tell if yours has it is by the assmebly of the head and the size of the fasterners. The 'new' 2004's have 10mm bolts instead of the mish-mash of 8 and 9mm.

He also told me that the new tensioner is good for 25k and there is no need to open my side case for inspection, not for a while at least.

Is there any truth to what he was telling me? Did Suzi finally address the cam-chain issue with the 2k4 model?

I hope so. Mine's a 2k5. When I pulled up the parts fische on the web, the cam chain tension is a different part number from the pre 2k4 model year.

Any thoughts for you experts????

Expert? Not quite but I do have some thoughts.

Yours is the first report we've had of an improved adjuster from Suzi.

My 2002 went 22,000 miles before I took the side cover off to take a look. Of course, I bought it with 12,000 on the odo and I don't know what, if any, service was done before I got it.

I'm going to go look at the fische at Ron Ayers to see if that tells anything.

Ken

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KenGLong Senior Member Alliance Member Offline 2002 Savage Posts: 297 Albuquerque, NM Gender:	Re: Do we need a better cam chain? Reply #91 - 08/02/07 at 18:58:35 Ok, the fiche at Ron Ayers shows the original adjuster as part number 12830-24B00 but it's been discontinued. The replacement is part number 12830-24B01 and seems to be a direct replacement. Anyone know what the difference is, if any? Ken
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verslagen1 YaBB Moderator ModSquad Offline Where there's a will, I want to be in it. Posts: 28884 L.A. California Gender:	Re: Do we need a better cam chain? Reply #92 - 08/02/07 at 19:47:45 The only difference I've seen is that the long spring is different. Otherwise they're exactly the same. The new one have a spring 8.5mm in diameter And the old ones are 9.8mm and 5mm longer Both are 1mm wire. That would make the new ones a bit stiffer.
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Rockin_John

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Re: Do we need a better cam chain?
Reply #93 - 08/02/07 at 22:06:16

PhotoProf wrote on 12/31/69 at 16:00:08:

Hey guys...
Just wondering if engine mods (more HP) puts added stress on an already suspect part of the engine? It would be interesting to see how mileage/mods/replacement compares to stock engines.

I'm sure that spinning the motor up in RPMs quicker must put some added wear/strain on the whole valvetrain.

But how much X increased HP causes Y amount of added wear/damage would be very difficult to quantify.

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Savage_Rob Serious Thumper Alliance Member Offline Mechanically Inclined Amateur Posts: 6972 Texas (Dallas area) Gender:	Re: Do we need a better cam chain? Reply #94 - 08/03/07 at 06:32:30 I wonder if higher operating temps might contribute to noticeably greater wear on these parts also.
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justin_o_guy

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Re: Do we need a better cam chain?
Reply #95 - 08/03/07 at 12:39:58

The single thing that sticks out to me is the reporting of cam chains lasting a Long Ol Time years ago. The engine operating temp hasnt changed. The way boys play with things hasnt changed.Is it possible the reports of long lasting cam chains were wrong? What about the point in one of the posts, regarding the wear of the gear & chain that were studied. The cam gear was only half worn, as was the chain. BUT, the tensioner was at the limit. So, what do we look at? The guides? The fact that the tensioner is at 8 mm or more when the new chain is installed? I Donut gno, but The life expectancy of the cam chain is approaching "Snowball in Hell" average life span. I really want to be gruntled with my bike, but, I could get DISgruntled. ( I know, I know Gruntled isnt a word, but it Should be, if I can get DISgruntled, why cant I be gruntled? HUHH? I am getting disgruntled NOW!!) WEll, now I am just being silly.

I think the most direct & cost effective mod is extending the tensioner where it attaches to the lower end of the guide. Making sure there is sufficient bow in the rear guide to keep the ratchet from grabbing a new tooth & creating a torture test for the chain would be good. The cam journals are sitting there , raw aluminum, as far from the low pressure oil pump as is possible, so, IF there is a big load on that chain, I would expect those surfaces to be worn if not galled & ruined. Since we arent seeing destruction in the head, I am guessing the tension on the chain isnt too horrible. I do want to try the cryo stuff on the next run. It will get new guides & chain & a tensioner mod.

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verslagen1 YaBB Moderator ModSquad Offline Where there's a will, I want to be in it. Posts: 28884 L.A. California Gender:	Re: Do we need a better cam chain? Reply #96 - 08/03/07 at 13:31:58 Are these stories or actual facts? I seen the ref's to accounts of bike's lasting 100k, but never cam chains. I expect my chain to last 40 to 50k, but had to modify the adjuster to do it. Otherwise the stock chain gave up the ghost at 22k.
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Oldfeller2

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Re: Do we need a better cam chain?
Reply #97 - 08/03/07 at 16:56:44

I did ask if Morse used to build the chain in the USA, the fellow I was working with has only been there 8 years and didn't think so -- to him the chain had 'always' been made in Japan.

Things have changed in 20 years -- oil has gotten better, not worse. Steel has gotten better, not worse. Seals have gotten better, not worse.

Did old timers have EPA super lean running Savages? Nope.

Did they mod them to the degree we do now? Nope.

I think we will get "reasonable total cam chain life" with what we have now. I was searching for greatly improved though.

Heck, I didn't find it -- but I sure tried.

I will try to get some car chain samples just to see what they look like -- not that they would be drop in replacements, but could THEY BE MADE to work.

Oldfeller

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Savage_Rob

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Re: Do we need a better cam chain?
Reply #98 - 08/03/07 at 18:52:31

When I mentioned operating temps, I wasn't suggesting they'd changed. I was wondering if the differences in lifespans might be at least partially attributed to variations in climate. You know, shorter-lived cam chain assemblies as you approach the equator. Just a thought. I hadn't noticed an attempt to look at the occurrences geographically.

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T Mack 1 - FSO

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Re: Do we need a better cam chain?
Reply #99 - 08/07/07 at 09:19:32

Quote:

He said the way to tell if yours has it is by the assmebly of the head and the size of the fasterners. The 'new' 2004's have 10mm bolts instead of the mish-mash of 8 and 9mm.

Just rebuild a 2001 and it only had 10mm bolts ... but..... It should be noted that at 10.4K miles the chain measured 127.25 mm (pulling a little to take up any slack). I saw a post saying 127mmm was "new". Also, the guides had very little signs of wear.

Sounds strange for an engine that the piston died.

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verslagen1 YaBB Moderator ModSquad Offline Where there's a will, I want to be in it. Posts: 28884 L.A. California Gender:	Re: Do we need a better cam chain? Reply #100 - 08/07/07 at 09:39:51 I think it shows how sensitive the whole lubrication/cooling/lean issue is. The piston overheated either from lack of lube or bad breakin or too much highway running too fast. Without the PO's confession we'll never know. but because the cam drive is fine at least some lube was getting there.
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Ed L.

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Re: Do we need a better cam chain?
Reply #101 - 08/07/07 at 17:51:04

I wonder if the newer 5 speed could be putting more strain on the cam chain. After all the 5 speed has 20% more shifting when compared to a 4 speed. Each time the bike is shifted and run up thru it's rpm range the cam chain gets pulled on. A 20% increase on stressing the cam chain could be one of the factors causing the stretch. Not much that can be done about it unless you want to skip a gear. Anybody been tracking if the failure occurs sooner in the 5 speeds than the 4 speeds. Just a thought I had to throw out to everybody

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LANCER

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Re: Do we need a better cam chain?
Reply #102 - 08/07/07 at 18:08:06

verslagen1 wrote on 12/31/69 at 16:00:08:

I think it shows how sensitive the whole lubrication/cooling/lean issue is. The piston overheated either from lack of lube or bad breakin or too much highway running too fast. Without the PO's confession we'll never know. but because the cam drive is fine at least some lube was getting there.

Since the cam drive area was OK then lack of lube is not likely the issue, perhaps a parts failure like a broken ring or maybe the ingestion of some large particle of something.`

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Savage_Greg

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Re: Do we need a better cam chain?
Reply #103 - 08/16/07 at 07:06:31

verslagen1 wrote on 12/31/69 at 16:00:06:

To rehash the results of a previous thread...

Several have stated that they replaced the cam chain only to find that the adjuster was not pulled in by very much. And needed to replace/modify the tensioner guide.

We are dealing with a complex system of steel and plastic. The hard sprockets aren't likely to wear. The chain is also steel and it's toothed design means we only have to be concerned with stretch. The guides are plastic over steel.

With my own bike I've seen with chain stretch not even half of what's allowed will leave the adjuster hanging by a thread.

Unless someone's willing to take all these bad parts and inspect them to the n'th degree, I don't think we'll ever know what's exactly the problem. Anyone want to take that on? Even the sites you've listed stated that it takes specialized inspection equipment to determine the chain condition.

And I think the problem varies from bike to bike. To some it's the chain, yet others the guides, to some sunspots.

OF, someone offered you a chain, why don't you take it and get it inspected? If it costs, let us know and we'll start a fund. But we should use a chain with a known measurements. Such as stretch, adjuster protrusion with new guides, etc.

Okay

Sure am glad that I bought 2 chains (1 for Stinger).

Did anyone take a good measure on the rear chain guide?

Or go here for a better 640x480 view...
http://s21.photobucket.com/albums/b277/gmdinusa/?action=view&current=Cam_Chai...

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verslagen1 YaBB Moderator ModSquad Offline Where there's a will, I want to be in it. Posts: 28884 L.A. California Gender:	Re: Do we need a better cam chain? Reply #104 - 08/16/07 at 07:16:17 me thinks you need a new calculator 5" x 25.4mm/in = 127.0mm (new chain) 5.07 x 25.4 = 128.78 (dead chain)
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