SuzukiSavage.com - Do we need a better cam chain?

Savage_Greg

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Re: Do we need a better cam chain?[IMG]http://i21.
Reply #135 - 08/18/07 at 06:59:29

I took my brand new chain out of the bag and used it.

Suppose this would be a good time for a Verslagy mod, but here is a comparison of a chain with 14,000 and a brand new one.

To answer the question in the title of this topic, I would have to say...

"Hell Ya. We Do Need a Better Cam Chain."

A chain at 5.015"

A chain at 5.000"

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Savage_Rob Serious Thumper Alliance Member Offline Mechanically Inclined Amateur Posts: 6972 Texas (Dallas area) Gender:	Re: Do we need a better cam chain? Reply #136 - 08/18/07 at 07:36:01 Greg, Again, a picture is worth a thousand words. Were the same guides used for both chains?
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Savage_Greg

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Re: Do we need a better cam chain?
Reply #137 - 08/18/07 at 07:43:04

Savage_Rob wrote on 12/31/69 at 16:00:08:

Greg,

Again, a picture is worth a thousand words. Were the same guides used for both chains?

Yes.

The old guides don't "appear" to have any wear, but I know better than that... Tongue

I hated to put it back together with the old guides, but I've had this engine apart for so long (since I started my CD project) that I decided that I can't wait any longer.

Photography note: A few thousand more words can be seen with the different lighting in the 2 photos. No flash in either shot, but the top one had some "soft white" bulbs and the bottom was under "daylight" bulbs Tongue

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Oldfeller2

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Re: Do we need a better cam chain?
Reply #138 - 08/18/07 at 07:45:48

New thought.

Run all the Slavy mods until chain hits itself. Completely remove right hand side guide and put a large ball bearing equipped nylon pulley up next to the cam gear that moves the chain more than half way over to the left -- with the pulley positioned just down from the cam gear a bit.

Angle of the long section of the straight stretched chain would match the angle of the fully extended slavy mod with some running clearance between them. Pulley would mount on a through shaft that would be tapped into the inner and outer surface of the guide tunnel.

Theoretically, you could just about double the total displacement of the chain wear and literally run the valve retardation back to zero (factory valve timing) after doing a full slavy extension run.

Then you can do the Slavy extension again. A chain would last 100,000 miles or there abouts.

Thoughts?

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Savage_Greg

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Re: Do we need a better cam chain?
Reply #139 - 08/18/07 at 08:04:03

Ya know...it's kinda interesting, but the little Honda 90 in my garage has a much better tensioner.

It uses oil pump pressure with a spring assist on a long arm with a "plastic" wheel for tensioning. On the opposite side the chain is guided by a sprocket. No long "plastic" guides and that was 20 years before our Savages.

Now on the other hand, I have a Honda VTR1000 engine sitting on my bench that is awaiting crank bearings. Each cylinder has a huge external tensioner and 2 long plastic guides.

There are just so many ways to do it...but with the Savage the chain seems to be the weak link... Cheesy

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Ed L. Serious Thumper Alliance Member Offline "We All go a Little Crazy Sometimes" Norman Bates Posts: 2808 Sunny Florida Gender:	Re: Do we need a better cam chain? Reply #140 - 08/18/07 at 08:08:20 Another plus about having a second tenisoner on the back (straight run) of the chain would be that it could compensate for the cam timing retarding that occurs with the stock setup. It also could help keep the cam timing correct if you shave a little off the head. Don't know if it is possible but....
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Re: Do we need a better cam chain?
Reply #141 - 08/18/07 at 17:14:05

I think the advantages of the guides is they kill any waves or chain slap immediately.

There is a place on the back side where 1 or 2 fins could be removed and threaded hole could be positioned to push on the guide. My thought was to add a stiff spring to give the guide a little bow. but this could get to the point of overtensioning the chain. Who ever did this would need to constantly open it up to monitor where and establish the proper tension. that's where I stopped, less tinkering, more riding.

But this would be a good mod on the front guide. Leaves the adjuster to do as zuki intended, sort of.

I've been thinking of a way to monitor chain stretch externally for some time. Here's a way that could work. drill the cam gear for a magnet. position may need to be worked out but the idea would be to measure the time between the cam sensor and spark. any change would be an indication of chain stretch. This could be used with the front guide adjustment screw to achieve the desired timing.

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Savage_Greg

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Re: Do we need a better cam chain?
Reply #142 - 08/28/07 at 15:04:47

After a few weeks of nagging, Stinger's '02 finally came over for the cam chain replacement today. However, after opening it up and a long telephone brainstorming session with Max, we decided to wait until winter....

Stinger's engine has more than twice the mileage but a couple millimeters less tensioner extension than mine did (it's posted somewhere). After 30,600 miles his tensioner measures 19 mm and there is no "out of round" or wear in the tensioner body itself.

Since his engine has no leaks we decided not to "fix" any Tongue

This winter after a few thousand more miles we'll open it up and change the chain...

It's hard to tease Stinger about the fact that he never uses 1st gear, or that he sprays his brake rotor with WD40, or that he only uses automotive engine oil, or that he never had the initial service done ever, at all. I'm pretty much the only mechanic that's ever touched his bike.

He rides his bike 65-75 all day long if he wants, it has no leaks or smoke, and the bike looks brand new. Must be doing something right

I also like the coating on the inside of his engine case...I guess that when they started painting the engine in 02, they did the inside too Tongue

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KenGLong Senior Member Alliance Member Offline 2002 Savage Posts: 297 Albuquerque, NM Gender:	Re: Do we need a better cam chain? Reply #143 - 08/28/07 at 19:12:34 Wow.
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Savage_Greg

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Re: Do we need a better cam chain?
Reply #144 - 08/29/07 at 05:15:45

So far, it seems that the reason for the extended tensioner is largely unknown.

It doesn't seem that the chain is all of the issue, and yet when I changed mine the tensioner was pulled back in pretty good...not perfect, but much better.

Must be several factors involved like maintenance and riding practices, mixed with mechanical wear on different parts.

Some time ago, there was a topic that involved "lugging" the engine...something that I admit to being guilty of doing. Can that put a load on the cam chain or is that just loading the primary gears?

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KenGLong

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Re: Do we need a better cam chain?
Reply #145 - 08/29/07 at 06:32:19

Savage_Greg wrote on 12/31/69 at 16:00:08:

So far, it seems that the reason for the extended tensioner is largely unknown.

My guess, and this is just a guess, is parts quality variations. I base this on the evidence we've seen here of cam chain maintenance intervals that vary from "normal" to extremely short.

I would like to see a 50-75 thousand mile maintenance interval but I realize that it's not practical considering the simplicity and low cost of this engine. 30,000 miles is a reasonable compromise and I would be "less dissatisfied" with that...if we could always get that much.

Ken

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Savage_Greg

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Re: Do we need a better cam chain?
Reply #146 - 08/29/07 at 11:33:34

Still though, I try to get my mind around the idea that mine was extended more than Stinger's at 14,000 while Max's was just about to implode at 24,000...and didn't someone mention 9,000 miles in a post sometime?

Inconsistent manufacturing? Hmmm. I do note that the SSM has no service limits mentioned for the tensioner or the guides. They only mention a visual inspection.

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stinger

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Re: Do we need a better cam chain?
Reply #147 - 08/29/07 at 14:01:30

Has anyone ever opened and checked to see how far the cam was extended out of the tensioner after maybe a 5,000 miles or so? Maybe the chain is supposed to or expected, to stretch after a few thousand miles and the cam extension of 19mm out is to be expected and nothing to be alarmed at. Would be interesting to see one with only a few thousand miles on it opened up.

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Savage_Greg

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Re: Do we need a better cam chain?
Reply #148 - 08/29/07 at 15:39:45

Stinger,

Still being the optimist, but I'll try again to help you out

Let me try to illustrate....

- your bike is running like it has every day since new.

- the engine is sounding smooth and powerful as you are cruising through the pristine mountain passes of Glacier National Park. The view is great. Life is good.

- then at 70 MPH the tensioner separates, the cam chain goes slack, a valve hits the piston, the tensioner spring lands in the primary gears, the crankshaft locks, the crankcase splits, and your rear wheel is suddenly sliding in all the oil you've just dumped on the road....and you are going straight off a cliff.

There. Does that help???

So far the issue is not predictable and because of a few of us die hards that continue to put mileage on a Savage (rather than "trading up"), this has become a potential problem if not physically checked.

If the tensioner did not come apart (as with Verslagen's mod) then your chain would just get slack, make noise, and your performance would drop. You'd have a warning sign.

Currently there is no way to know without trashing a $15 gasket Tongue

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OldMechGuy2

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Re: Do we need a better cam chain?
Reply #149 - 09/14/07 at 17:48:22

Great forum here! Lots of intelligent guys and considerate ones, too. Bravo for that.

This is my first post. I don't own one of these motorcycles, but I've been studying them and looking for a decent used one. So far, I haven't found one.

I've owned/repaired/re-engineered aspects of motorcycles, cars, etc since the mid 1960s, and I have to say I don't think this bike has a chain problem. I think it has a tensioner problem only. From what I've read, the chain seems to be wearing within what I'd think would be decent limits. The tensioner seems to me to be very poorly designed...particularly in contrast to other OHC engines I've seen. I've read all the posts...wasn't able to completely follow the German fellow's idea, but it seems a modification which would allow for more travel and would prevent the thing from separating would be the answer. And...it doesn't seem like the modification would be difficult. In fact, it may be as simple as adding a longer barrel and a slot/pin to keep the unit from separating. I do like the idea of an electronic warning system. That should be easy to accomplish and very useful. I'll keep watching. One note: I don't think I've ever seen one of these designed to ratchet as this one does. Given that it was designed with a small bit of give in the other direction, that could be ok, but if there is no give, I'd say that is not going to be a good thing in hot climates.

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