SuzukiSavage.com - Help with an 87 stock carb

savage_joe

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Re: Help with an 87 stock carb - won't idle
Reply #15 - 07/16/05 at 19:32:30

Always fun to start with something someone else goofed up Embarrassed

I was thinking it could be the same thing, busted off mixture screw tip, but not too sure how to get it out as it is pretty stripped out. If I can back it out all the way, could I then blow compressed air into a port or something to blow it out?

I have taken it apart and cleaned it all out, it was pretty clean when I opened it up. Diaphram looks good, no cracks or anything.

I have checked the carb specs. My carb has all the stock jets in it. I was under the assumption that these bikes were jetted lean from the factory, and after they put the mac pipe on it probably made the lean problem worse. The fact that it idles stronger with less smoke when I add a little choke while idling made me think that maybe the pilot jet was too lean (small).

I will try to remove the mixture screw to verify the tip condition (and maybe dremel a better slot in it) or call the previous owner to see if I can play with the 86 carb they have, to either steal the mixture screw or just try it as is and see if that helps out at all. Not too sure yet which way I will go, as it all depends if I can get a hold of them or not.

Thanks again for all the help. Joe

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Savage_Greg

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Re: Help with an 87 stock carb - won't idle
Reply #16 - 07/16/05 at 20:11:09

savage_joe wrote on 12/31/69 at 16:00:07:

I have checked the carb specs. My carb has all the stock jets in it. I was under the assumption that these bikes were jetted lean from the factory, and after they put the mac pipe on it probably made the lean problem worse. The fact that it idles stronger with less smoke when I add a little choke while idling made me think that maybe the pilot jet was too lean (small).

Thanks again for all the help. Joe

No. See, here's the rub. You don't have to play by my rules on your carb. Your carb is more close to pre-EPA when compared to mine. Look at the specs closely. We don't even have the same needle jet or throttle valve. You have a carb that is more like the rest of us in the group wish we had....your carb, as old as it is, is more performance minded.

And as a warning, I think that you may really give yourself more headaches if you try putting later model jets in there too....In case you haven't noticed (I've been hinting) Tongue

, your throttle valve (butterfly) is 5 MM bigger than mine. You have a #125 and 95% of the rest of this group have a #120....look on your butterfly to be sure, if that carb is stock, you can't use what we have....or the advice given for it.

Your pilot jet is supposed to be a 47.5 and you have 4 more jets that we don't have. All the guts in there are different....

If you can't get that carb to work, maybe someone in here can hook you up with an even better carb....in the long run it may be cheaper and better anyway.

Good luck tomorrow

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klx650sm2002 Serious Thumper Offline The more I learn the less I know. Posts: 2041 Cumbria,England Gender:	Re: Help with an 87 stock carb - won't idle Reply #17 - 07/17/05 at 02:43:16 Hey Greg 5mm seems to be a big difference in throttle valve size ? Clive W
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Savage_Greg

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Re: Help with an 87 stock carb - won't idle
Reply #18 - 07/17/05 at 08:00:40

klx650sm2002 wrote on 12/31/69 at 16:00:07:

Hey Greg
5mm seems to be a big difference in throttle valve size ?

Clive W Cheesy

I'm assuming that 120 vs 125 is a metric measurement just as the jets are sized in millimeters too. And with the differences in stock jetting for those years, it would be even worse to assume that various other parts would be "plug and play" as well.

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savage_joe

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Re: Help with an 87 stock carb - won't idle
Reply #19 - 07/17/05 at 16:49:26

Thanks guys for all the help.

I took it apart and cleaned it all up and put everything back to a stock setup. 3 turns out on the mixture screw. White spacer in place. It fired right up with no choke and was idling pretty good, after warming the bike up some I was able to lower the idle speed down and adjust the mixture. Dremel to cut new groove in stripped out mixture screw....priceless Wink

Back and forth and mine seems to like 1/2 to 3/4 turns out when hot. Hopefully this means that when cold it will actually need the choke, like it should.
I am seeing a slight hesitation coming off idle with some black smoke, but after that it pulls good. Some backfires once in a while on decel, but not too bad. Is this where I may need to swap the white spacer for some 3mm washers? I also see a tiny bit of whitish smoke come out on decel just when the rpms drop down to idle, only a little bit and then it clears right up.

I do have the 125 butterfly Cheesy

I think one of the passages must have been obstructed or something, because the bike is idling much smoother now and much quieter too. Didn't ride it yet as it is pouring here now Sad

Thanks again for all the help...Joe

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Savage_Greg

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Re: Help with an 87 stock carb - won't idle
Reply #20 - 07/18/05 at 11:06:43

klx650sm2002 wrote on 12/31/69 at 16:00:07:

Hey Greg
5mm seems to be a big difference in throttle valve size ?

Clive W Cheesy

Okay, so Joe has a #125 throttle plate. I thought so. Since I understand the metric units, maybe that number is the "radius" of the butterfly at 12.5 mm. Just like a 155 main is 1.55 mm. Therefore later models have a #120 or a plate with a 12.0 mm radius.

Now, if we could just get people to realize that changing the spacer on earlier carbs may not give the same results as on the later carbs....

...of course, that's why I posted the specs to begin with....

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savage_joe

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Re: Help with an 87 stock carb - won't idle
Reply #21 - 07/18/05 at 11:13:22

Thanks again Greg, you helped me out more than you know.

I am seeing a slight hesitation coming off idle with some black smoke, but after that it pulls good. Some backfires once in a while on decel, but not too bad. Is this where I may need to swap the white spacer for some 3mm washers? I also see a tiny bit of whitish smoke come out on decel just when the rpms drop down to idle, only a little bit and then it clears right up.

Any thoughts on this? I was going to try and richen the jet needle by playing with washers, does this sound right to you? Thanks again...Joe

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Savage_Greg

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Re: Help with an 87 stock carb - won't idle
Reply #22 - 07/18/05 at 11:27:37

savage_joe wrote on 12/31/69 at 16:00:07:

Thanks guys for all the help.

<snip> White spacer in place. It fired right up with no choke and was idling pretty good, after warming the bike up some I was able to lower the idle speed down and adjust the mixture. Dremel to cut new groove in stripped out mixture screw....priceless Wink

<snip>I am seeing a slight hesitation coming off idle with some black smoke, but after that it pulls good. Some backfires once in a while on decel, but not too bad.

<snip>I also see a tiny bit of whitish smoke come out on decel just when the rpms drop down to idle, only a little bit and then it clears right up.

I do have the 125 butterfly Cheesy

Thanks again for all the help...Joe

So, a good cleaning was all it needed. Good point. That proves to be the "best first" thing to do rather than replacing parts. Right?

Black smoke and a little hestitation off idle? Too rich. Not an issue of the spacer. Change your air filter (and drain the airbox). Maybe turn your mixture screw in a little bit more.

The occassional backfires or pops are normal after all....not just for the Savage but other air cooled thumpers too.

Whitish smoke on decel? Oil. An older engine. Good chance that (as someone else pointed out) you could have old valve guide seals. Could be dried out from sitting a while. The throttle closed decel action causes a more negative pressure (suction) within the combustion chamber (which is partly the reason that you slow down anyway). I wouldn't worry too much....

BTW - whitish smoke can also be rings, but that is more common on accel, AND you already checked the compression anyway.

You DO have an early vintage carb. I DO NOT recommend that you follow any of the common practices that you read about in this forum. Your stock carb is probably better tuned than mine as it is. Anything you do will be experimental as far as I see it, but in the future you may be able to assist others with an '86 - '88 carb.

You are most welcome, too.

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savage_joe

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Re: Help with an 87 stock carb - won't idle
Reply #23 - 07/18/05 at 11:42:44

Very good point about the old vs the new carbs.

All the information I learned on here about the new ones is not going to waste though, as a riding friend has a 95 savage and has the decel popping and such that the owners of the newer bikes complain about. See, now I can help her fix her bike too.

Not too sure what you mean about drain my airbox? Drain it of what?

I want to get a new air filter for this bike, does K&N make one for the 87? Or any other brands?

I will do a few plug chops soon to see how the main jet is doing, once the weather cooperates Angry

I will keep an eye on the oil level, but it only emmits a tiny puff of whitish smoke after the throttle is closed, right when the rpms drop to around idle from being revved up, then it stabilizes at idle speed and the exhaust looks good. I was thinking it might be a touch lean on decel, but hardly any backfires now, so you may be right, the high vacuum of a hard decel might just be pulling a little oil from somewhere, but not too bad for 20K miles and almost 20 years old. I would expect some oil burning from either the rings or valve seals at this point.

Thanks again. I'll try to post a few pics of the new ride soon. Joe

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Savage_Greg

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Re: Help with an 87 stock carb - won't idle
Reply #24 - 07/18/05 at 12:01:20

savage_joe wrote on 12/31/69 at 16:00:07:

Very good point about the old vs the new carbs.

All the information I learned on here about the new ones is not going to waste though, as a riding friend has a 95 savage and has the decel popping and such that the owners of the newer bikes complain about. See, now I can help her fix her bike too.

Not too sure what you mean about drain my airbox? Drain it of what?

I want to get a new air filter for this bike, does K&N make one for the 87? Or any other brands?

I will do a few plug chops soon to see how the main jet is doing, once the weather cooperates Angry

I will keep an eye on the oil level, but it only emmits a tiny puff of whitish smoke after the throttle is closed, right when the rpms drop to around idle from being revved up, then it stabilizes at idle speed and the exhaust looks good. I was thinking it might be a touch lean on decel, but hardly any backfires now, so you may be right, the high vacuum of a hard decel might just be pulling a little oil from somewhere, but not too bad for 20K miles and almost 20 years old. I would expect some oil burning from either the rings or valve seals at this point.

Thanks again. I'll try to post a few pics of the new ride soon. Joe

A "her" with a '95? Good for you. Now you can be a hero

Rule of thumb (sounds good anyway)....black is gas and gray is oil 8)

Drain airbox? Your engine breather is connected to the airbox (intentionally) and through it you'll suck water and oil vapors into the airbox. Some get burned through the carb and some condenses in the airbox....after a while quite a bit of gunk can accumulate in the bottom below the filter. You have a big hose hanging down under the bike and it is SUPPOSED to have a plug in it...unless the previous owner did you another "favor". Get a little pan and pull that plug. Nice stuff Tongue

Yes...I think the filter is still the same. Might check Ron Ayers to see if there has been a change in part numbers...it might be in a topic in the Technical Corner too....And BTW, the stock filter will disintegrate if you just try to clean it....I tried.

Nope, not too bad...especially considering how all this started.

We'll wait for your pics....Ride Safe.

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savage_joe

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Re: Help with an 87 stock carb - won't idle
Reply #25 - 07/18/05 at 12:41:02

Well, it is my girlfriend's brother's girlfriend's bike, so it's all good I do not mind helping out. I have spent a decent amount of time this spring helping him fix up a mid-80's sporty for him to ride.

I will look around for the air filter for sure. The air box is clean right now, so I will just keep an eye on it. Thanks for that tip.

Now I just have to get my girlfriend on the 87 and get her used to it and I will be all set. I am riding a 96 Vulcan 800 classic right now. But I have 3 other air-cooled thumpers, 2 xrs and a grizzly. I swapped the stock carb out on the xr400 for a mikuni flatslide pumper and it was like night and day, no more bog. I have never had any backfiring on any of my air cooled singles, just this savage so far.

Well, rain should be gone in a few days, I'll let you know how eveything works out. Thanks again...Joe

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Savage_Rob

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Re: Help with an 87 stock carb - won't idle
Reply #26 - 07/18/05 at 12:53:26

And there is a K&N (clean & re-oil type) direct swap for the stock air filter. At least there is for the 98 and I would really be surprised if the air filter had been changed.

This has been yet another learning thread for me. While I knew the original carbs had better jetting, I didn't realize they were otherwise different. Maybe I should take a better look at the one in the box in the corner of my garage to see what model it is. Hmmmmmmm......

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klx650sm2002 Serious Thumper Offline The more I learn the less I know. Posts: 2041 Cumbria,England Gender:	Re: Help with an 87 stock carb - won't idle Reply #27 - 07/19/05 at 03:31:29 Hey Greg I've been looking at KLX's old CVK 40 and the throttle plate is 39mm. My best geuss about the number is that it is the circumference, so 120 gives 38mm and 125 gives 40mm, what do you think? Clive W
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