SuzukiSavage.com - Charging and the Bat

Oklahoma_Mike

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Charging and the Bat
06/23/05 at 22:09:17

Hey I think my battery is dying but I wanted to check my charging system and noticed that with the motor running when I disconnected the battery the bike died. I rode 340 miles last weekend and the bike didn’t give me any problems. So what’s the deal. Shouldn’t the bike stay running with the battery disconnected? If not how does the battery get charged. Is anyone else’s rig doing this as well? I tried playing with the throttle to try to keep it running no luck. I know quite a bit about charging systems but am at a loss if the bike is not charging the battery should run out after about 10-20 miles max but I drove it 40 miles to work and back and ran to a few stores on it, starting and stopping and the battery seemed strong. ps pretty sure the battery is on its last leg. where could a guy locally find the drycell Odyssey battery. Part number? 8)

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Savage_Rob

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Re: Charging and the Bat
Reply #1 - 06/24/05 at 06:01:35

I got my Odyssey PC545MJ on eBay and delivery was fast. The seller was Odyssey World (same as the link I added above). It is shorter in height and wider (left-to-right) than the stock so I had to make a minor mod. I bent a piece of aluminum plate to look like a piece of channel to lift the battery up a little over an inch. That put it high enough for the stock cables to reach comfortably. I slid the stock toolbag underneath the channel inside the battery box. That enabled me to leave the toolbag rack off (which makes room for the wider battery) and just put the chrome battery box cover back on. I added a tie-wrap around the battery inside the box just for added stability. From the outside, it looks stock and on the inside, it still houses the battery and stock toolbag (which I should remove anyway). The PC545 and PC545MJ are the same battery except that the MJ has a metal jacket on it. When I was looking, they were almost the same price, so I got the metal jacketed version.

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Savage_Greg

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Re: Charging and the Bat
Reply #2 - 06/24/05 at 07:08:40

Oklahoma_Mike wrote on 12/31/69 at 16:00:06:

Hey I think my battery is dying but I wanted to check my charging system and noticed that with the motor running when I disconnected the battery the bike died. I rode 340 miles last weekend and the bike didn’t give me any problems. So what’s the deal. Shouldn’t the bike stay running with the battery disconnected? If not how does the battery get charged. Is anyone else’s rig doing this as well? I tried playing with the throttle to try to keep it running no luck. I know quite a bit about charging systems but am at a loss if the bike is not charging the battery should run out after about 10-20 miles max but I drove it 40 miles to work and back and ran to a few stores on it, starting and stopping and the battery seemed strong. ps pretty sure the battery is on its last leg. where could a guy locally find the drycell Odyssey battery. Part number? 8)

Why will the engine die with the battery disconnected? Good question. Forget the days of magnetos...

The engine dies because the ignition system needs Direct Current voltage to operate. With the engine running, the alternator is sending Alternating Current voltage to the regulator/rectifier. From there it goes to the battery and the rest of the bike. With power flow from Positive to Negative, just consider the path to be broken without a battery.

On another note, the bike WILL run for a limited amount of time on just the battery, if the charging system fails.

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Savage_Rob Serious Thumper Alliance Member Offline Mechanically Inclined Amateur Posts: 6972 Texas (Dallas area) Gender:	Re: Charging and the Bat Reply #3 - 06/24/05 at 08:13:38 So you're saying the battery is connected in series instead of parallel.
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Savage_Greg Serious Thumper Alliance Member Offline Don't go around your ass to reach your elbow... Posts: 7844 SW Washington State Gender:	Re: Charging and the Bat Reply #4 - 06/24/05 at 08:40:42 Savage_Rob wrote on 12/31/69 at 16:00:06: So you're saying the battery is connected in series instead of parallel. Sorta kinda....needless to say the battery is present to keep a steady level of current while the alternator output increases and decreases with engine speed. But the ignition system is powered by DC voltage...
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Oklahoma_Mike

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Re: Charging and the Bat
Reply #5 - 06/24/05 at 09:01:16

Savage_Greg wrote on 12/31/69 at 16:00:06:

Sorta kinda....needless to say the battery is present to keep a steady level of current while the alternator output increases and decreases with engine speed. But the ignition system is powered by DC voltage...

OK I feel better I am use to cars and you can take the battey out to check the charging system so I got a little worried. Nice to know that is normal. Thank you very much fellows. Looks like I just need another battery. I think I will look at the Odyssey PC545MJ I am thinking the metal would corrode well that may not be a problem. Thank you for the part numbers that helps. 8)

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TBeck2000 Ex Member	Re: Charging and the Bat Reply #6 - 06/24/05 at 10:16:33 I wonder how this PC545-equivalent battery would perform... http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=35594&item=... It's only $35 + s&h and it has 680 CCA versus the 545 offered with the Odyssey.
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Oklahoma_Mike

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Re: Charging and the Bat
Reply #7 - 06/24/05 at 10:51:08

TBeck2000 wrote on 12/31/69 at 16:00:06:

I wonder how this PC545-equivalent battery would perform...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=35594&item=...

It's only $35 + s&h and it has 680 CCA versus the 545 offered with the Odyssey.

its a liquid bat but is sealed Maintenance free I would do it for that price. but I havent check what I can get it locally for. I am also not sure what the odyssey goes for.
the liquid bat is about a 5 year bat the odyssey is like 8 years so it depents on how long you are going to hold onto the bike. 8)

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Savage_Rob

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Re: Charging and the Bat
Reply #8 - 06/24/05 at 11:06:41

The Odyssey is also both an AGM (Absorbed Glass Mat) and deep-cycle. That lets you have a deep-cycle battery that you can mount at various angles as you mod the bike.

Edit: While I currently have mine mounted in the normal upright position, I wanted the flexibility to do what I wanted in the future. That, the 8-year warranty and fact that they actually supply these for military vehicles were some of the reasons that made me think this battery was likely to be one thing I could simply depend on. I like that. Whenever possible, I like to install it and then not care about it. There are enough items you just can't do that with anyway.

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sluggo Serious Thumper ModSquad Offline big singles lead, twins follow the pack Posts: 4744 moses lake washington Gender:	Re: Charging and the Bat Reply #9 - 06/24/05 at 13:53:16 whew, this thread sure is complicated. here's my thoughts on why the machine won't run without battery. [glow=red,2,300]TOYS REQUIRE BATTERIES [/glow] 8)
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Oklahoma_Mike Senior Member 2005 No Login Offline With two on the ground love can be found Posts: 426 Tulsa Oklahoma Area Gender:	Re: Charging and the Bat Reply #10 - 06/24/05 at 17:14:19 sluggo wrote on 12/31/69 at 16:00:06: whew, this thread sure is complicated. here's my thoughts on why the machine won't run without battery. [glow=red,2,300]TOYS REQUIRE BATTERIES [/glow] 8) good one sluggo helpful maybe not but still good Thank you 8)
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klx650sm2002 Serious Thumper Offline The more I learn the less I know. Posts: 2041 Cumbria,England Gender:	Re: Charging and the Bat Reply #11 - 06/25/05 at 03:54:04 I've just bought a sealed battery and have been told that i need a special charger to charge at 1/2 an amp as any more would damage it, does not the 'bikes charging system charge the battery at more than this anyway? Thanks a lot. Clive W
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WD

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Re: Charging and the Bat
Reply #12 - 06/25/05 at 07:21:36

Look on the charging directionsheet that comesin the battery box. SAhould have directions for 750mA rate, 1/2 amp rate, and "fast charge". Bike shops say to charge at no more than 1/2 amp because car chargers don't go that low and most people won't read the charge directions... I'm trying to break my sport bike guy of trying to upsell chargers to every customer. Simple ratio and proportion formula will tell you how long to charge the battery. You know, it if takes 750mA/10 hours, it takes 1 amp/ ? time. I charge mine at 2 amps and haven't burned one up yet.

Oh, by the way, the sealed batteries I sell have the initial charge rate printed in the label of the battery itself. Just a heads up.
-WD

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Savage_Greg

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Re: Charging and the Bat
Reply #13 - 06/25/05 at 08:35:15

klx650sm2002 wrote on 12/31/69 at 16:00:06:

I've just bought a sealed battery and have been told that i need a special charger to charge at 1/2 an amp as any more would damage it, does not the 'bikes charging system charge the battery at more than this anyway?

Thanks a lot.

Clive W Cheesy

Isn't the idea of a low charge rate with a sealed battery, to prevent an explosion caused by gases that might build up during charging....with no place to go?

I think the difference is that when the engine is running AND charging the battery, there is also a load on the charging system and the battery with things like ignition and lights. So the output of the "alternator-rectifier-regulator system" is greater than 750 mA. Also, let's not forget the word "regulator" which controls the battery charge rate anyway.

And just for those that don't know...750 mA can also be expressed as 3/4 amp or.750 amps.

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Oklahoma_Mike

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Re: Charging and the Bat
Reply #14 - 06/27/05 at 12:35:03

Savage_Greg wrote on 12/31/69 at 16:00:06:

Why will the engine die with the battery disconnected? Good question. Forget the days of magnetos...

The engine dies because the ignition system needs Direct Current voltage to operate. With the engine running, the alternator is sending Alternating Current voltage to the regulator/rectifier. From there it goes to the battery and the rest of the bike. With power flow from Positive to Negative, just consider the path to be broken without a battery.

On another note, the bike WILL run for a limited amount of time on just the battery, if the charging system fails.

All of what you said makes sense, but using the rational I can’t explain why my bike ran untill I killed it with the switch for 30+ seconds with the battery power removed today. I swear. Greg how is that possible. The according to your theory the bike should die within a few milliseconds of the circuit being broken ?????????

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