Donate!
Welcome, Guest. Please Login or Register :: View Members
Pages: 1 2 3 
Send Topic Print
Derek has an Ignition Problem.  Any ideas? (Read 21 times)
Savage_Greg
Serious Thumper
Alliance Member
*****
Offline

Don't go around your
ass to reach your
elbow...

Posts: 7844
SW Washington State
Gender: male
Derek has an Ignition Problem.  Any ideas?
04/06/05 at 20:45:43
 
A Savage rider has contacted me personally for help with an electrical problem.  We've been back and forth in email...and I can't seem to help him....and here is the summary....

He bought an '86 Savage that's been sitting out in the weather for 2 years (rain, snow, everything).  As well the bike had a problem with the starter gears breaking (way back before it was parked) and he had to fix all that too.  He's been working on it and seems to be pretty knowledgable about what he's trying to do, but like all of us he doesn't want to buy electrical parts if he doesn't need them...and his bike won't start.

When he presses the starter button, with the plug out and grounded, he gets one strong spark at the beginning of the starter cycle and that is it....no more sparks.  And it does this everytime he presses the starter button.  One spark and that is it.

He has checked all the interlocks...blah, blah, blah.  He has soldered wires that were exposed.  It appears that since the starter turns that the simple electrical is okay.

My questions....does anyone have any ideas?  Is it the ignition unit, the ignition pickup, the coil, the spark plug lead?....all the items listed in the troubleshooting section of the SSM.

With all the knowledge in this group, I figure that we can help this guy out.  I invited him here to this group, and if anyone wants to volunteer I have his email address.

Let's get this bike running.

Greg
Back to top
 
 


  IP Logged
WD
Serious Thumper
2005 No Login
*****
Offline

Professional
"scooter
trash".

Posts: 5207
Rosemark TN
Gender: male
Re: Derek has an Ignition Problem.  Any ideas?
Reply #1 - 04/06/05 at 20:54:51
 
Based on the symptom, I'd have to say the CDI box that fires the coil is shot. It either isn't building up enough voltage, or storing enough voltage at the coil, to get more than the one zap. First thing I'd swap out. The CDI sits up, lets some current through, good spark, then it is taking what, minutes/hours/days before it allows the coil to resaturate and fire?
-WD
Back to top
 
 

On 2 wheels since 7/87

Black and Chrome 2003 1950s style custom
  IP Logged
slavy
Serious Thumper
*****
Offline

smart cars for
stupid people

Posts: 710
Phoenix, Arizona
Gender: male
Re: Derek has an Ignition Problem.  Any ideas?
Reply #2 - 04/06/05 at 22:14:35
 
I know it might like a waste of time, but let's go step by step and check all the options:
1. You should have battery voltage at the CDI box on O/W wire and on the O/W wire of the ign. coil always when key in ON position.
   a.If NO - check the ign switch and Kill switch and the connectors
   b. If Yes- go to 2.
2. Make sure  B/W wire of the CDI is connected to ground
3. Check the pick-up coil
   a.There should be 175-265 ohms resistance between the O and G wires comming from the stator cover
   b. There should be "open line" when checking the resistance between the orange or green wire and ground
4. If everything checkes good- blame it on the CDI
      I  strongly hope the problem to be in the pick-up coil.There were brocken gears in that area and a piece might have gotten stuck  between the rotor and the pick-up coil.
Back to top
 
 

The arificial intelligence is no match for the natural stupidity
  IP Logged
Savage_Greg
Serious Thumper
Alliance Member
*****
Offline

Don't go around your
ass to reach your
elbow...

Posts: 7844
SW Washington State
Gender: male
Re: Derek has an Ignition Problem.  Any ideas
Reply #3 - 04/07/05 at 05:19:32
 
Good responses so far.....

WD - that was partially my thought too.  One shot from the CDI.  He assures me that he checked the contacts on the CDI, too.

Slavy - in checking things, I got him to reopen the case and check the pickup.  What he did find was cracked insulation on the pickup leads where they passed through the grommet and exited the case.  Those he did resolder and insulate.  I don't think that he has used a meter on anything, though

What I was wondering was....could this be a symptom of a missing ground connection somewhere?  Static and/or high tension voltage can act strangely sometimes.
Back to top
 
 


  IP Logged
Kropatchek
Serious Thumper
*****
Offline

Why more than 1
cylinder?

Posts: 1457
Alphen a/d Rijn  Netherlands
Gender: male
Re: Derek has an Ignition Problem.  Any ideas?
Reply #4 - 04/07/05 at 07:01:37
 
Greg wrote:

What I was wondering was....could this be a symptom of a missing ground connection somewhere?  Static and/or high tension voltage can act strangely sometimes.

Check the common ground, the thin wire going to the negative of the battery.

I would suspect the ignition coil, that's where the high current comes from. The CDI is only the trigger.

Greetz
Kropatchek
Back to top
 
 

Never ask your bike to scream before her throat is warm.
'93 Sav in '96 ( yellow) looks
  IP Logged
Derek
Ex Member




Re: Derek has an Ignition Problem.  Any ideas?
Reply #5 - 04/07/05 at 07:04:24
 
Greetings gentlemen (and ladies). I now am an official member. Your collective contribution to my ignition problem is greatly appreciated. The dialogue to date depicting the ignition problem is accurate. I have again re-checked all connections and cleaned and grounded the various ignition components. When I opened the left side case again, I did measure the pick-up's resistance and it is within tolerance (200 ohms or so). I soldered and sealed the minute insulation cracks on the G and O wires at the grommet. I saw no visible damage to the pick-up in terms of debris from the broken gears. And I checked for continuity on all ignition related wiring between components (switches, ignitor, coil, and regulator). After all this; still only one strong blue spark on the grounded spark plug on the first revolution of each cranking attempt. I will go back, as you suggested, and check for voltage in and out of the black box.
Greg: Thanks for getting this open dialogue initiated. I don't know of any other Suzuki owners in the area (Montreal, Quebec) in an attempt to swap parts for testing.
I sincerely welcome any more thoughts on the topic. Thanks.
Derek
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
slavy
Serious Thumper
*****
Offline

smart cars for
stupid people

Posts: 710
Phoenix, Arizona
Gender: male
Re: Derek has an Ignition Problem.  Any ideas?
Reply #6 - 04/07/05 at 07:09:31
 
Test #2 is  "check the B/W wire of the CDI- there should be grownd"- If there is  "-"  on the B/W wire it means all the   "-" connections are OK.
Back to top
 
 

The arificial intelligence is no match for the natural stupidity
  IP Logged
Derek
Ex Member




Re: Derek has an Ignition Problem.  Any ideas?
Reply #7 - 04/07/05 at 11:01:24
 
The problem persists.
I have gone through Slavy's step by step suggestions and all connections, resistances, current, voltages, and grounds appear as they should be. So I decided to investigate a bit further. When disconnecting the coil there was about 5ohms across the terminals. When connected, the orange wire showed 12v with the key on. But when cranking the engine, there was 10.5-11.5v at the terminal. As there is no balast resistor in the system, I assume that the minor voltage drop simply is from the starter drawing power. If my memory of electrical theory is correct, the coil should receive 12v to excite the field and the magnetic field should collapse in between excitations/modulations. But, the needle on the voltmeter did not fluctuate when cranking. Now I'm suspecting the signal is corrupt from the black box which I understand controls this.
There continues to be one spark at the beginning of each starter cycle attempt. A bizarre observation though is that when I turned off the key, there is another single spark. Is the black box all confused? I don't think this is normal. I rechecked all possible sources of power interruptions and the kill, neutral, clutch, and side stand switches are operational. So, I'm thinking that the ignitor box may be bad. The bike did however sit outside over the winter at -30C and may have cracked internally the black box. Poor Savage. At 650$ I'm not rushing out to buy a new black box right now. If you have thoughts and/or have a comment on my deductions and attempts at problem solving, please do share. If there is something else to check, again, please do share. Thanks.
Derek
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Kropatchek
Serious Thumper
*****
Offline

Why more than 1
cylinder?

Posts: 1457
Alphen a/d Rijn  Netherlands
Gender: male
Re: Derek has an Ignition Problem.  Any ideas?
Reply #8 - 04/07/05 at 14:50:07
 
Derek, after reading your last post and special:
"There continues to be one spark at the beginning of each starter cycle attempt. A bizarre observation though is that when I turned off the key, there is another single spark. Is the black box all confused?"

I'm almost convinced that the CDI has passed away ( dead)
When you shut-off the power you interupt the power to the coil and presto, you have a spark.

Maybe there's somebody nearby that you can lend a DCI.

Greetz
Kropatchek Grin
Back to top
 
 

Never ask your bike to scream before her throat is warm.
'93 Sav in '96 ( yellow) looks
  IP Logged
slavy
Serious Thumper
*****
Offline

smart cars for
stupid people

Posts: 710
Phoenix, Arizona
Gender: male
Re: Derek has an Ignition Problem.  Any ideas?
Reply #9 - 04/07/05 at 17:05:26
 
99% sure it is the CDI. Before You buy a CDI just verify that the pick up coil is good.
There are CDI'S on eBay for about $40. Just be patient. The 86-88  CDI is different than 95-2004. It might be just the connector , but I am not sure.
Back to top
 
 

The arificial intelligence is no match for the natural stupidity
  IP Logged
Derek
Ex Member




Re: Derek has an Ignition Problem.  Any ideas?
Reply #10 - 04/07/05 at 18:51:08
 
Thanks for your ongoing input and thoughts guys. I can't think of anything else to check on the bike. I agree in that probably the CDI (ignitor) is bad. Everything else tests fine. Now it is a question of changing components, starting with the CDI. I will try to look around to swap the part before seeking out one to buy. And I hope that the other components (coil, pick-up) are ok.
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
slavy
Serious Thumper
*****
Offline

smart cars for
stupid people

Posts: 710
Phoenix, Arizona
Gender: male
Re: Derek has an Ignition Problem.  Any ideas?
Reply #11 - 04/07/05 at 21:14:18
 
You can check everything else, exept the CDI. If everything else checks good- blame it on the computer.
Back to top
 
 

The arificial intelligence is no match for the natural stupidity
  IP Logged
Savage_Greg
Serious Thumper
Alliance Member
*****
Offline

Don't go around your
ass to reach your
elbow...

Posts: 7844
SW Washington State
Gender: male
Re: Derek has an Ignition Problem.  Any ideas
Reply #12 - 04/08/05 at 06:48:57
 
Sounds like everyone pretty much agrees on the problem, eh?  

Too bad you don't know of any Savages in Montreal.  It would be so easy to swap and check the CDI, but I guess that one for $40 isn't too bad on Ebay.  The last one that I bought cost me $180.

Oh, and BTW - Welcome to SuzukiSavage.com  8)
Back to top
 
 


  IP Logged
cphilip
Ex Member




Re: Derek has an Ignition Problem.  Any ideas?
Reply #13 - 04/08/05 at 07:10:28
 
I got one more thing to clean up here.... just in case....

The thing was sitting outside in the weather? I beleive I read that?

The flywheel could have devloped rust and corrosion. Interfering with the CDI to HES interaction. I would clean the flywheel inner side and the HES contact as well as the contact surfaces of the Stator.

I am just grasping at straws here but weird things happen with a coat of rusty corrosive slop between these two important points that feed the CDI and other things. This is the point of generation for all that power needed to supply those kinds of things.

You should be able to do this without pulling the stator off but just pulling the flywheel. Make sure it gets proper keyed and tightened though.
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Kropatchek
Serious Thumper
*****
Offline

Why more than 1
cylinder?

Posts: 1457
Alphen a/d Rijn  Netherlands
Gender: male
Re: Derek has an Ignition Problem.  Any ideas?
Reply #14 - 04/08/05 at 07:52:44
 
No offence but:

Quote
You should be able to do this without pulling the stator off but just pulling the flywheel. Make sure it gets proper keyed and tightened though.
Unquote

When you open up the LH cover the stator stays attached to the cover.
The  rotor comes off and then you reach the flywheel. There's no need to pull the last 2 items.

Greetz
Kropatchek Grin
Back to top
 
 

Never ask your bike to scream before her throat is warm.
'93 Sav in '96 ( yellow) looks
  IP Logged
Pages: 1 2 3 
Send Topic Print


« Home

 
« Home
SuzukiSavage.com
04/27/24 at 08:13:20



General CategoryRubber Side Down! › Derek has an Ignition Problem.  Any ideas?


SuzukiSavage.com » Powered by YaBB 2.2!
YaBB © 2000-2007. All Rights Reserved.