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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Derek has an Ignition Problem. Any ideas? /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1112845543 Message started by Greg_650 on 04/06/05 at 20:45:43 |
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Title: Derek has an Ignition Problem. Any ideas? Post by Greg_650 on 04/06/05 at 20:45:43 A Savage rider has contacted me personally for help with an electrical problem. We've been back and forth in email...and I can't seem to help him....and here is the summary.... He bought an '86 Savage that's been sitting out in the weather for 2 years (rain, snow, everything). As well the bike had a problem with the starter gears breaking (way back before it was parked) and he had to fix all that too. He's been working on it and seems to be pretty knowledgable about what he's trying to do, but like all of us he doesn't want to buy electrical parts if he doesn't need them...and his bike won't start. When he presses the starter button, with the plug out and grounded, he gets one strong spark at the beginning of the starter cycle and that is it....no more sparks. And it does this everytime he presses the starter button. One spark and that is it. He has checked all the interlocks...blah, blah, blah. He has soldered wires that were exposed. It appears that since the starter turns that the simple electrical is okay. My questions....does anyone have any ideas? Is it the ignition unit, the ignition pickup, the coil, the spark plug lead?....all the items listed in the troubleshooting section of the SSM. With all the knowledge in this group, I figure that we can help this guy out. I invited him here to this group, and if anyone wants to volunteer I have his email address. Let's get this bike running. Greg |
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Title: Re: Derek has an Ignition Problem. Any ideas? Post by WD on 04/06/05 at 20:54:51 Based on the symptom, I'd have to say the CDI box that fires the coil is shot. It either isn't building up enough voltage, or storing enough voltage at the coil, to get more than the one zap. First thing I'd swap out. The CDI sits up, lets some current through, good spark, then it is taking what, minutes/hours/days before it allows the coil to resaturate and fire? -WD |
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Title: Re: Derek has an Ignition Problem. Any ideas? Post by slavy on 04/06/05 at 22:14:35 I know it might like a waste of time, but let's go step by step and check all the options: 1. You should have battery voltage at the CDI box on O/W wire and on the O/W wire of the ign. coil always when key in ON position. a.If NO - check the ign switch and Kill switch and the connectors b. If Yes- go to 2. 2. Make sure B/W wire of the CDI is connected to ground 3. Check the pick-up coil a.There should be 175-265 ohms resistance between the O and G wires comming from the stator cover b. There should be "open line" when checking the resistance between the orange or green wire and ground 4. If everything checkes good- blame it on the CDI I strongly hope the problem to be in the pick-up coil.There were brocken gears in that area and a piece might have gotten stuck between the rotor and the pick-up coil. |
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Title: Re: Derek has an Ignition Problem. Any ideas Post by Greg_650 on 04/07/05 at 05:19:32 Good responses so far..... WD - that was partially my thought too. One shot from the CDI. He assures me that he checked the contacts on the CDI, too. Slavy - in checking things, I got him to reopen the case and check the pickup. What he did find was cracked insulation on the pickup leads where they passed through the grommet and exited the case. Those he did resolder and insulate. I don't think that he has used a meter on anything, though What I was wondering was....could this be a symptom of a missing ground connection somewhere? Static and/or high tension voltage can act strangely sometimes. |
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Title: Re: Derek has an Ignition Problem. Any ideas? Post by Kropatchek on 04/07/05 at 07:01:37 Greg wrote: What I was wondering was....could this be a symptom of a missing ground connection somewhere? Static and/or high tension voltage can act strangely sometimes. Check the common ground, the thin wire going to the negative of the battery. I would suspect the ignition coil, that's where the high current comes from. The CDI is only the trigger. Greetz Kropatchek |
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Title: Re: Derek has an Ignition Problem. Any ideas? Post by Derek on 04/07/05 at 07:04:24 Greetings gentlemen (and ladies). I now am an official member. Your collective contribution to my ignition problem is greatly appreciated. The dialogue to date depicting the ignition problem is accurate. I have again re-checked all connections and cleaned and grounded the various ignition components. When I opened the left side case again, I did measure the pick-up's resistance and it is within tolerance (200 ohms or so). I soldered and sealed the minute insulation cracks on the G and O wires at the grommet. I saw no visible damage to the pick-up in terms of debris from the broken gears. And I checked for continuity on all ignition related wiring between components (switches, ignitor, coil, and regulator). After all this; still only one strong blue spark on the grounded spark plug on the first revolution of each cranking attempt. I will go back, as you suggested, and check for voltage in and out of the black box. Greg: Thanks for getting this open dialogue initiated. I don't know of any other Suzuki owners in the area (Montreal, Quebec) in an attempt to swap parts for testing. I sincerely welcome any more thoughts on the topic. Thanks. Derek |
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Title: Re: Derek has an Ignition Problem. Any ideas? Post by slavy on 04/07/05 at 07:09:31 Test #2 is "check the B/W wire of the CDI- there should be grownd"- If there is "-" on the B/W wire it means all the "-" connections are OK. |
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Title: Re: Derek has an Ignition Problem. Any ideas? Post by Derek on 04/07/05 at 11:01:24 The problem persists. I have gone through Slavy's step by step suggestions and all connections, resistances, current, voltages, and grounds appear as they should be. So I decided to investigate a bit further. When disconnecting the coil there was about 5ohms across the terminals. When connected, the orange wire showed 12v with the key on. But when cranking the engine, there was 10.5-11.5v at the terminal. As there is no balast resistor in the system, I assume that the minor voltage drop simply is from the starter drawing power. If my memory of electrical theory is correct, the coil should receive 12v to excite the field and the magnetic field should collapse in between excitations/modulations. But, the needle on the voltmeter did not fluctuate when cranking. Now I'm suspecting the signal is corrupt from the black box which I understand controls this. There continues to be one spark at the beginning of each starter cycle attempt. A bizarre observation though is that when I turned off the key, there is another single spark. Is the black box all confused? I don't think this is normal. I rechecked all possible sources of power interruptions and the kill, neutral, clutch, and side stand switches are operational. So, I'm thinking that the ignitor box may be bad. The bike did however sit outside over the winter at -30C and may have cracked internally the black box. Poor Savage. At 650$ I'm not rushing out to buy a new black box right now. If you have thoughts and/or have a comment on my deductions and attempts at problem solving, please do share. If there is something else to check, again, please do share. Thanks. Derek |
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Title: Re: Derek has an Ignition Problem. Any ideas? Post by Kropatchek on 04/07/05 at 14:50:07 Derek, after reading your last post and special: "There continues to be one spark at the beginning of each starter cycle attempt. A bizarre observation though is that when I turned off the key, there is another single spark. Is the black box all confused?" I'm almost convinced that the CDI has passed away ( dead) When you shut-off the power you interupt the power to the coil and presto, you have a spark. Maybe there's somebody nearby that you can lend a DCI. Greetz Kropatchek ;D |
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Title: Re: Derek has an Ignition Problem. Any ideas? Post by slavy on 04/07/05 at 17:05:26 99% sure it is the CDI. Before You buy a CDI just verify that the pick up coil is good. There are CDI'S on eBay for about $40. Just be patient. The 86-88 CDI is different than 95-2004. It might be just the connector , but I am not sure. |
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Title: Re: Derek has an Ignition Problem. Any ideas? Post by Derek on 04/07/05 at 18:51:08 Thanks for your ongoing input and thoughts guys. I can't think of anything else to check on the bike. I agree in that probably the CDI (ignitor) is bad. Everything else tests fine. Now it is a question of changing components, starting with the CDI. I will try to look around to swap the part before seeking out one to buy. And I hope that the other components (coil, pick-up) are ok. |
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Title: Re: Derek has an Ignition Problem. Any ideas? Post by slavy on 04/07/05 at 21:14:18 You can check everything else, exept the CDI. If everything else checks good- blame it on the computer. |
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Title: Re: Derek has an Ignition Problem. Any ideas Post by Greg_650 on 04/08/05 at 06:48:57 Sounds like everyone pretty much agrees on the problem, eh? Too bad you don't know of any Savages in Montreal. It would be so easy to swap and check the CDI, but I guess that one for $40 isn't too bad on Ebay. The last one that I bought cost me $180. Oh, and BTW - Welcome to SuzukiSavage.com 8) |
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Title: Re: Derek has an Ignition Problem. Any ideas? Post by cphilip on 04/08/05 at 07:10:28 I got one more thing to clean up here.... just in case.... The thing was sitting outside in the weather? I beleive I read that? The flywheel could have devloped rust and corrosion. Interfering with the CDI to HES interaction. I would clean the flywheel inner side and the HES contact as well as the contact surfaces of the Stator. I am just grasping at straws here but weird things happen with a coat of rusty corrosive slop between these two important points that feed the CDI and other things. This is the point of generation for all that power needed to supply those kinds of things. You should be able to do this without pulling the stator off but just pulling the flywheel. Make sure it gets proper keyed and tightened though. |
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Title: Re: Derek has an Ignition Problem. Any ideas? Post by Kropatchek on 04/08/05 at 07:52:44 No offence but: Quote You should be able to do this without pulling the stator off but just pulling the flywheel. Make sure it gets proper keyed and tightened though. Unquote When you open up the LH cover the stator stays attached to the cover. The rotor comes off and then you reach the flywheel. There's no need to pull the last 2 items. Greetz Kropatchek ;D |
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Title: Re: Derek has an Ignition Problem. Any ideas? Post by Mr 650 on 04/09/05 at 10:57:38 Derek wrote:
Sorta sounds like when points are severely worn out or damaged. They can do the same thing, if they never open, the coil stays energized, & only until the key is switched off will you get that last spark. The box that feeds the coil sounds as if it is not switching the coil properly or at all. Can not rule out the crank trigger yet as per CPhilip. Gotta meter? Check for a signal from the crank trigger, if that appears to change with each rotation fairly normal, then swap the box 1st I reckon. |
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Title: Re: Derek has an Ignition Problem. Any ideas? Post by Derek on 04/09/05 at 18:24:32 It would appear that the mystery is gone. The 99% confidence level that it is the CDI has jumped to 100%. Given that I had little to lose, I opened the box, and found that it had not been sealed for some time (little cracks between the two housings). Perhaps the snow, freezing rain, and -30C had taken their toll. The circuit board looked like something from an alien landscape. The resistors and capacitors were barely distinguishable and there was about 5mm (1/4") of solid rust coating most of the board and a few burned components (black marks) to boot. It must have filled with water, froze, then solidified. I took digital photos for posterity, but not sure how to upload them here for your entertainment value. I'm not suggesting to check the sealing on your respective CDIs (if your Savages get wet from rain or washing, but a few pennies of sealant is a mighty fine investment I'd say. By the way, the circuit board is attached to the center piece and if any of you want to open the box to check it out or to reseal it from the inside, you won't disturb or damage the circuitry. |
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Title: Re: Derek has an Ignition Problem. Any ideas? Post by slavy on 04/09/05 at 19:17:40 This is a very valuable info. Thx and sorry for the bad news. Check the eBay. |
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Title: Re: Derek has an Ignition Problem. Any ideas Post by Greg_650 on 04/09/05 at 22:17:47 As Derek said....here is the issue.... This CDI is toast and Derek did his homework. http://home.comcast.net/~gmdinusa/CDI_Badweb.jpg At least we have closure ::) |
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Title: Re: Derek has an Ignition Problem. Any ideas? Post by Mr 650 on 04/10/05 at 11:56:19 Greg, I don't believe you are giving up on it so so easy. Don't throw it away. :'( Looks like a single sided board, start replacing the obvious parts, it may work again. ;) It would be good to have a spare. 8) |
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Title: Re: Derek has an Ignition Problem. Any ideas Post by Greg_650 on 04/10/05 at 12:24:54 Mr 650 wrote:
Well, it isn't a matter of giving up. More like giving in. There isn't much you can do with a board when the traces are gone too. Besides, Derek and his CDI are in Montreal.... |
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Title: Re: Derek has an Ignition Problem. Any ideas? Post by Derek on 04/10/05 at 16:50:27 Did you guys really think that you heard the end of this story (rhetorically stated)? Greg; Thanks for pasting the picture. I think Savage owners can benefit from my minor tragedy as surely if water got into my factory sealed CDI with only 6,000mi on the bike, then there are others out there with the same fate. I cleaned up the circuit board and it looks not too bad actually. Seems like only the two main resistors (top left corner of the picture above) are broken. This is the bottom side of the CDI when it is installed on the bike and where the water pooled. Most of the board is coated with gel-epoxy stuff which may have contributed to a short as it appears to be breaking down (softening). I shall invest a few minutes of time and replace the 2 resistors as soldering them is pretty straightforward if I can match up the proper resistances. The color bars indicating the resistances are mostly cracked and not all there. The board is very simple and can easily be replicated, except for the 3 microprocessors. So, if the microprocessors are not damaged, this CDI will be brought back to life. If that does not work, there is nothing that can be done without re-programming the microprocessors and I will be in the market to buy another CDI. By the way, does anyone know why Suzuki uses all Mitsubishi electrical components as opposed to Bosch? |
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Title: Re: Derek has an Ignition Problem. Any ideas? Post by Kropatchek on 04/11/05 at 03:29:51 Mitsubishi is closer by. Kropatchek ;D |
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Title: Re: Derek has an Ignition Problem. Any ideas? Post by sluggo on 04/11/05 at 21:25:26 HERE'S A LINK TO AN E-BAY AUCTION FOR A CDI http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=4542693244&category=35594&sspagename=WDVW |
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Title: Re: Derek has an Ignition Problem. Any ideas? Post by WD on 04/11/05 at 21:42:14 Why outsource? If they can get the parts in their home market, makes sense to me. Wish other manufacturers would follow suit. There is a bike on the market that has used: Honda/Yamaha (Keihin) , Suzuki/Kawasaki (Mikuni) carbs; all four plus Bosch fuel injection parts; Taiwanese lights, tires, and wires; Toyota and Ford starters; Ford, Chrysler, Japanese plugs; even German engines... and they claim to be "American Made"... assembled, sure, but made all over the world. And that is in the last 20 years. They used to use Jaguar (SU) carbs... -WD |
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Title: Re: Derek has an Ignition Problem. Any ideas? Post by Kropatchek on 04/12/05 at 14:26:53 Look in their accessory catalog. SOME item are specialy marked: Made in the USA. Guess who? ??? Greetz Kropatchek ;D |
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Title: Re: Derek has an Ignition Problem. Any ideas? Post by Derek on 04/13/05 at 13:58:11 The 2 CDIs on eBay have different #s than mine and the connector is offset, mine is centered. There must be a couple of different models. I'll be patient Again, having nothing to lose, I showed the CDI to an electrical engineer. Within minutes of testing he found one of the 3 capacitors in the cluster to be "open" and the internal regulator not to be grounded due to rust buildup. Plust two tired resistors. A number of the solders were hollow with poor connections. So, for a total of 10$ in parts and 1 hr. labor, he will change all diodes, resistors, capacitors and resolder all connections. Also, for all you keener Savage owners or just curious, the schematics for the microprocessors are available online for free at sites like eserviceinfo.com or alldatasheet.com or chipdocs or datasheetarchive.com. Just type in the part number you see on the part and all is available. The schematics are available for many other applications too. I'll give you an update when I get the CDI back in the next few days. With this minor setback I had time to paint my bike flat black-clear kote...just because. |
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Title: Re: Derek has an Ignition Problem. Any ideas? Post by Derek on 04/16/05 at 20:42:10 The CDI works and the Savage started up fine. One capacitor (20 cent cost) and resoldering a number of connections on the back of the circuit board seemed to solve the problem. Glad I did not have to buy a new part. The bike started up right away. It is one peppy little machine. It is nice to finally see it run (for the first time) so I had to take it for a little ride. I am not dissappointed. Thanks Greg for initiating the discussion group for this topic and thanks to all you guys who contributed to diagnosing the problem. Your input was appreciated. I just have to seal the CDI properly and finish assembling a few parts before logging some highway time with the bike. Derek |
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Title: Re: Derek has an Ignition Problem. Any ideas Post by Greg_650 on 04/17/05 at 06:41:05 Derek wrote:
darn, I love it when a plan works out. Great job there, Derek. You have done a first on this board, or any that I know of....you fixed the CDI at the component level. Congrats to your your engineer friend, too. We might need to keep him on retainer 8) |
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Title: Re: Derek has an Ignition Problem. Any ideas? Post by Red_Wine on 04/18/05 at 11:47:45 Derek wrote:
Well, that certainly adds another valuable resource to our wonderful community ;D From now on, we will not have to worry about burnt or deceased CDIs, Derek's friend will be a handy hand... ;) KTRSD, RW |
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Title: Re: Derek has an Ignition Problem. Any ideas? Post by Mr 650 on 04/19/05 at 00:52:36 Atta boy D., love it ! What next, EFI? ;D |
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