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Stock Carb Needle White Spacer Mod (Read 60 times)
ThumperPaul
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Stock Carb Needle White Spacer Mod
04/20/24 at 12:37:39
 
Started the carb rebuild/cleaning.

My needle has 3 positions for the e-clip.  Top groove is leanest.  Bottom grove is richest (raising the needle).  Not surprised someone has been in the carb before and replaced the needle (2006 bike).  The needle looks like it's marked "879S".  Does that make any sense to anyone?  Maybe it has a "Y" or "X" before the 879S (heck it could be a K for Keihin)...  Main jet is marked 145 and the pilot jet is marked 147.5 (downsized from 152.5 stock, what???).

See photo.  This needle set-up is interesting.  The top grove (leanest) for the e-clip is being used, but then you have the fat washer underneath that raises the e-clip.  This, in affect, lifts the needle beyond where the lowest groove for the e-clip could be placed (richest setting).

But my main question is....  When I read about the "white spacer mod", the recommendation is to shave down or remove the white spacer and replace with 1-2 #4 washers.  Thus reducing the thickness and lowering the needle (making it leaner).

I'm confused....the white spacer mod reads to me like it's intended to enrich the mid-throttle range by lowering the needle by using a smaller washer.  It seems backwards.  Am I reading it wrong?  What am I not understanding?  

Does the white spacer mod (going thinner) assume you've increased the Main Jet size from 145 to a larger main jet size (150, 152.5, 155)?  And thus you have to lean out the mid-range on the needle by lowering the needle with a thinner washer.

I'm not sure how I'm going to approach the mid range/needle tune.

A) try it like it's currently set up (and assume somebody got it right).
B) buy an EEN tapered needle.
C) ask the forum!

Stock exhaust and air filter/box set up.  I was planning to use a standard size stock 52.5 pilot jet and go up 1 size on the main from 145 to 147.5.  And have a 150 main jet in my pocket.  I always have a fear of running too lean and hot.  I'm rather err to the side of being too rich and fouling spark plugs.
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Needle_with_3_positions.jpeg
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Fast 650
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Re: Stock Carb Needle White Spacer Mod
Reply #1 - 04/20/24 at 13:05:42
 
You have the spacer below the clip. It goes on top of the clip, and a thinner spacer would raise the needle then.
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ThumperPaul
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Re: Stock Carb Needle White Spacer Mod
Reply #2 - 04/20/24 at 13:42:36
 
That makes sense Fast 650, but that's a strange place to put the washer (sitting on top of the needle below the plate).  And this is exactly why I'm confused by the discussion about the white spacer mod.  I'm actually used to seeing washers under the e-clip to raise the needle.

This is the set-up I found when I opened the carb.  Either method, the needle has been raised.
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Re: Stock Carb Needle White Spacer Mod
Reply #3 - 04/20/24 at 13:56:09
 
Yeah, that design isn't very intuitive when you first look at it. It has fooled more than a few people so don't feel bad about missing that.
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ThumperPaul
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Re: Stock Carb Needle White Spacer Mod
Reply #4 - 04/20/24 at 15:30:04
 
Yup.  Really confusing when I opened it up and it’s set up with the washer under the e-clip.  It’s the design I’m used to seeing, so then the whole spacer mod guidance had me scratching my head!
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Dave
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Re: Stock Carb Needle White Spacer Mod
Reply #5 - 04/21/24 at 06:17:27
 
Yep - the spacer goes on top and holds the needle clip down against the spring.  Reducing the thickness of the white spacer allows the needle to be raised - which then provides for more fuel flow and makes the fuel/air mixture richer.

Most stock Savage needles only have one groover for the clip - early model years and aftermarket needles have multiple grooves.  Rather than cut the white spacer - you can just move the clip to adjust the mixture.  If you get a lean surge at very low throttle settings - you can move the clip down a notch on the needle which will result in a richer mixture.  The symptoms of a lean mixture occurs when you roll on a small amount of throttle (like you are riding though a school zone with a Police car watching you) - if you feel the engine power is uneven and the bike surges - the part throttle fuel/air mixture is likely lean.

I believe this ia a very important part of jetting a carb - the needle position controls the fuel/air mixture for the majority of the riding you do.  You likely spend very little time at idle of full throttle - so the needle position is controlling the fuel/air mixture most of the time.  IF you get this too lean the power will be uneven - if you get it too rich your mpg will be bad and the engine will lose power.  Get it right - and the throttle will be crisp and the mpg will be good.
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DragBikeMike
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Re: Stock Carb Needle White Spacer Mod
Reply #6 - 04/21/24 at 23:05:44
 
Paul, in addition to your white spacer being in the wrong location, your metal washer is also in the wrong location.  The eClip obviously goes in the groove.  As previously mentioned, the white spacer belongs on top of the eClip.  The metal washer belongs underneath the eClip.  The spring goes underneath the metal washer.

Like this.
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Slide_Needle_Assy_Stack_002.jpg

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ThumperPaul
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Re: Stock Carb Needle White Spacer Mod
Reply #7 - 04/22/24 at 05:48:02
 
Thanks Dave and Mike!  Mike - Thanks! I didn’t even catch that the thin washer should be in between the spring and e-clip!  It seems obvious now!

With this non-stock 3 position needle, let’s see if I can can find the sweet spot.  I think I’ll put 1 #4 washer on top of the e-clip in addition to which groove I select for the e-clip.  To me, the plate needs a washer to seat on rather than butting directly against the e-clip.  I’m probably overthinking this.
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LANCER
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Re: Stock Carb Needle White Spacer Mod
Reply #8 - 04/22/24 at 08:32:15
 
Your. Seems with the 3 positions for the clip, can be a “stock needle” from the ‘86-‘89 model years for the Savage years.  
The ‘90-‘94 model years of the Savage were not available in the US until ‘95 when the Savage returned to the US.
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ThumperPaul
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Re: Stock Carb Needle White Spacer Mod
Reply #9 - 04/24/24 at 05:25:24
 
Thanks Lancer. The bike is a 2006.  The carb has the 2 air bleeds under the dome (230 & 45).  More current style.  I’m pretty sure the needle came from an aftermarket kit.  The new cheap kit I just bought has the name needle.  Ever heard of a “#Y379S” needle style?
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ThumperPaul
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Re: Stock Carb Needle White Spacer Mod
Reply #10 - 04/25/24 at 11:16:22
 
Photo of the setup I'm going to try.  Circlip in the middle groove and a thin #4 washer on top of the circlip and under the plate.  With the different goove selections available, the washer on top of the circlip isn't needed to enrich the fuel supply (like the white spacer would do).  I installed it to create a better seat between the circlip and plate to more even distribution of the force of the plate compressing against it instead of directly upon the circlip.  It will also have the affect of placing the circlip between the middle groove and lowest groove for fuel mixture.  

We'll see how it does.  I'll report back in 2-3 weeks when I've installed all the other parts to put her back together and running.
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Needle_Setup_New.jpeg
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