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Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it end? (Read 534 times)
DragBikeMike
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Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en
Reply #30 - 05/02/24 at 19:51:54
 
"DBM am I reading this correctly? You're saying that the release cam and rod may be worn and that could be causing the clutch to be partially engaged when when I have freeplay at the lever??"

What I am saying is excessive lost motion between the release cam and release shaft (not the pushrod) can fool you into installing a longer pushrod.  The cam hits a stop built into the clutch cover.  Everything can be hard up (release plate, pushrod, release cam, and hard stop) and you will still be able to rotate the release arm (the arm that hooks to the cable).  The release arm will have a few degrees of rotation and it will make you think that the pushrod is not pushing on the release plate when in fact the pushrod is pushing on the release plate.
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DragBikeMike
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Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en
Reply #31 - 05/02/24 at 20:03:40
 
OK, YouTube came through.  This vid may help to clarify the issue.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fzrkDOeU5hs

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Surviving Philly
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Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en
Reply #32 - 05/02/24 at 23:07:30
 
Wow. Just wow. DBM i can't thank you enough. Amazingly Informative, really appreciate the video. I think this mystery is close to being solved.

Before I order any parts I'll  check for freeplay on the case, and pull the cover again to see if the arm is rotating in the cam with it not moving from the hard stop.

Edit: wait, --- I know this thing with the release arm shows me that when I switched to the shorter rod, why it was able to allow the springs to fully compress and also for the spring bolts to hit the arm -- what I don't grasp is: after I installed the fresh Barnett clutch with the middle length rod, what has been causing this initial wear? Could this new information about freeplay in the release arm be causing the clutch to wear so badly in the first place?

Also, is the freeplay between the cam and shaft by design? Is it intentionally loose from the factory? Or is the looseness a direct result of use? Is it possible for the freeplay between the cam and the rod to get so bad that it prevents the clutch from fully disengaging when pulled in??

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ThumperPaul
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Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en
Reply #33 - 05/03/24 at 11:47:33
 
Great tutorial Mike.  Thanks for sharing!

Philly - Photo of the flat side of the release shaft in Woody.  It was in decent shape at 11k miles and fit snugly in the cam.  It was even a tighter fit going into the new hardened steel "Sneeze cam" I installed.
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Surviving Philly
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Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en
Reply #34 - 05/03/24 at 12:51:46
 
Thanks Paul,

This leads me to believe there should be no freeplay front he factory, and I've confirmed today I do have some decent freeplay as it's currently assembled, and I know that based on the wear, the pushrod is fully against that cam. If this is true, I'm inclined to believe that freeplay between the release shaft and cam could have been causing the clutch to not fully disengage when pulled in..... However I've never noticed any creep.

EDIT: DBM does this sound correct? What are your thoughts? Is it possible that the freeplay based on wear between the cam and the actuating shaft is large enough due to wear that when I pull the clutch in, the cam is not fully acting on the pushrod and is keeping the plates partially engaged?? Not enough to cause the bike to pull with the clutch in but just enough to burn the plates, especially under high load?
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« Last Edit: 05/03/24 at 14:12:34 by Surviving Philly »  
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ThumperPaul
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Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en
Reply #35 - 05/03/24 at 15:39:55
 
Let’s see what Mike says, but I’d do the clutch drag test I described earlier.  Get the rear wheel off the ground, start bike, put in 1st gear, wheel starts moving, pull the clutch lever, and apply rear brake, then let off rear brake while the clutch is still pulled.  If the clutch is fully disengaging, the rear wheel should virtually stop spinning.  A little drag is normal, but it shouldn’t be going crazy aggressive like it’s in gear.  

Does the bike try to ‘walk’ on its own with the clutch pulled (disengaged) while in gear (like when sitting at a red light)?

When you roll on the throttle hard, does the clutch slip (engine is screaming, but the bike isn’t pulling very well)?
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Surviving Philly
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Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en
Reply #36 - 05/03/24 at 16:19:34
 
Paul,

I'm not opposed to these tests, but due to the current condition of the pressure plate I don't think it would make sense to do right now until those components are replaced. I do appreciate your input and this this test makes absolute sense given what I imagine to be going on, but as a test would be compromised by the current condition of the assembly, that being a new clutch pack WITH the compromised plate.

Generally, though, no I have not observed any creep. What I really think is going on right now is that l, as DBM pointed out, freeplay due to wear between the actuating cam and shaft creates a condition where when I pull the clutch in, there is enough disengagement to prevent creep or pull, but the plates are still in minimal enough contact to burn. And when under serious load, they burn significantly.
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Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en
Reply #37 - 05/03/24 at 17:36:37
 
You’re right.  I wasn’t thinking about it correctly.

Mike is amazing!  It’s crazy how that little cam and shaft can cause such a nightmare!  I really hope you get it resolved and put this saga in the rearview mirror!
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Surviving Philly
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Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en
Reply #38 - 05/03/24 at 19:12:39
 
I think I may be wrong about this assumption, much more knowledgeable people here than me, Including yourself are helping me solve this. My current inclination is to replace the release arm, cam, pressure plate and pack.
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DragBikeMike
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Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en
Reply #39 - 05/03/24 at 20:37:00
 
I think I am doing a poor job of explaining what I want to get across.

Let's start with terminology.  

Freeplay is a clearance inherent to the design.  In general, it is desired and intended to provide running clearance to accommodate expansion or wear.  The clutch release system needs freeplay so that the clutch pressure disk is free to apply full spring pressure to the plates.  You don't want anything to prevent the springs from applying full force to the pressure disk.  When your fingers release the clutch lever on the handlebar, you want the release mechanism to get out of the way and not interfere with the pressure disk.

Lost Motion usually is the result of wear and it is not desirable.  You want the release arm on the clutch cover, release shaft, and release cam to move as if they were all one piece.  When the flats on the shaft wear, the release cam can move independently of the release shaft.

You want freeplay in the clutch cable.  When you are not squeezing on the lever there should be some free play.  If you were somehow able to lock the release arm on the clutch cover so that it could not move at all, you can still adjust the clutch cable so that there is freeplay.  When your fingers are not on the clutch lever, you want it to be able to move a bit.  You don't want the cable tight like a banjo string.  

You want freeplay in the clutch release mechanism inside the clutch cover.  Since there is a hard stop incorporated into the clutch cover, the only way to introduce freeplay into the internal mechanism is by changing the length of the pushrod.  Make the pushrod shorter and you increase freeplay.  Make the pushrod longer and you reduce freeplay.  Make the pushrod too long and you eliminate freeplay, and then everything is up hard.  Once there is no internal freeplay, the springs can no longer apply full force to the pressure disk.

As the clutch components wear, the pressure disk moves to the right.  As the pressure disk moves to the right, freeplay is reduced.  Eventually, as wear continues, all of the freeplay is used up and the assembly will hit hard and the clutch will start to slip.  Since the manufacturer knows that clutch plates wear, they provided a way for periodic adjustment.  That would be the pushrod.  It comes in three different lengths (44.5mm, 45.5mm & 46.5mm).

They also provided a way for the owner to check the system.  That would be the two marks on the crankcase.  When everything is new and pristine and adjusted correctly, the lever arm on the clutch cover will fall between the two marks on the crankcase.  To check this, you lift the lever arm gently to remove the internal freeplay.  

If the lever arm is situated too high in relation to the marks on the case, it indicates something might be out of whack inside the clutch.  Maybe the fiber plates are swollen up due to fuel fouling, or the clutch is assembled incorrectly.  Maybe there's an extra steel plate in there.  Maybe a thrust washer is missing.  Maybe the pushrod is just too short.

If the lever arm is situated too low in relation to the marks on the case, it usually indicates wear.  It could also be too low because the clutch is assembled incorrectly.  For instance, the special fiber disk (piece 20 of Philly's illustration in reply #5) may have been replaced with a standard fiber plate, or an aftermarket set of plates may be installed (thinner plates).  Maybe an extra thrust washer was installed.  But usually, if the lever arm is situated too low, it's due to wear.  The friction plates could be worn, the steel plates could be worn, the pressure disk could be worn, or the clutch hub could be worn.  It could be wear on all of the above pieces.

The manufacturer understands that the fiber plates will wear, and that just because the plates are worn doesn't mean they are no longer serviceable.  So, they provide a shorter pushrod to prevent the release mechanism from going up hard and causing the clutch to slip.  Install the shorter rod, reintroduce reasonable freeplay, good for another 40K miles (hopefully).

What the manufacturer didn't plan on was lost motion in the release arm & cam assembly.  Suzuki just assumed that would never wear, and would act as one solid piece.  Once the release shaft wears a bit, now there is lost motion, and the lever arm will be situated too high.  It will give you a false indication.  The release cam and release mechanism can be hard up solid, but you will still detect movement in the release arm, and you will think there is free play in the internal mechanism when there isn't any free play.  So, you will see the lever arm situated too high, and you will figure you need a longer pushrod, and you will put in a longer pushrod (just like you did Philly), and the clutch will slip.







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DragBikeMike
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Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en
Reply #40 - 05/03/24 at 20:49:54
 
Regarding clutch drag.  IMO, no need for any special test.  If your clutch is dragging you will feel it.  If you clutch is dragging you won't be able to find neutral with the engine running.  Philly, could you find neutral with your engine running?  Could you feel the bike creeping forward when the engine was running and the bike was in gear?

The way this clutch is designed, the wave washer always keeps the plates touching slightly.  I don't understand the wave washer, but I do know that you can't leave it out.  Take the wave washer out and clutch action sucks.  

When this clutch is assembled correctly, and you have oil of the correct grade and viscosity, the clutch drag is minimal.  I guess if you spend countless hours stuck in traffic with the clutch lever pulled in, it might cause some wear, but I would be surprised if that's the cause of Philly's pressure disk wear.  Something doesn't seem right.  Either there is a problem with assembly, or the rider technique is abusive.

If you can't find anything wrong with the way the clutch is assembled, then I would modify the pressure disk as previously discussed.  That will put steel against the innermost fiber plate and increase longevity.  You need to do a step-by-step with a complete set of pics so we can help you get through this.
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Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en
Reply #41 - 05/03/24 at 21:04:40
 
So, mike. And before I ask let me first say I deeply appreciate your attentiveness to this.

1. Wear between the release cam and release shaft, as you mentioned, was not anticipated by the manufacturer.

2. Is freeplay between the release cam and shaft factory intentional, or is it solely due to wear?

3. Could this freeplay cause a condition in which, when you pull in the clutch, you are separating the plates enough to disengage enough to shift, but not enough to fully separate the disks?

I think based on the information you provided that wear between the cam lobe and actuating shaft is preventing the disks from fully separating when I pull in the clutch and this is causing it to burn up. Does this sound plausible or am I totally out of reality?

To answer your questions: I can find neutral easily without any issues while running. However I have had an issue where, during take off, sometimes the bike will shift from second into neutral. I always considered this normal
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DragBikeMike
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Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en
Reply #42 - 05/04/24 at 03:08:44
 
"2. Is freeplay between the release cam and shaft factory intentional, or is it solely due to wear?"

I would not refer to it as freeplay, it is lost motion caused by wear.  There has to be some clearance between the cam and the shaft, otherwise you would not be able to assemble the parts.  So, clearance is intended by design, but it should be very, very small.  I don't think the factory anticipated how much the shaft would wear.  When the shaft and release cam are new, they are difficult to assemble.  It's hard to push the shaft through the cam.

Think about the design and how they incorporated the marks on the case.  Whoever designed those reference marks didn't think the shaft would be rotating in the cam, they thought the shaft and cam would move in unison.  You can't expect the reference mark to be useful if the relationship between the shaft and the cam is changing.  Essentially, the reference mark is an indicator of cam position, so if the cam gets loose on the shaft, you have no way of knowing what the cam position is.  The marks become meaningless.


"3. Could this freeplay cause a condition in which, when you pull in the clutch, you are separating the plates enough to disengage enough to shift, but not enough to fully separate the disks?"

Of course, the lost motion could be sufficient to prevent full disengagement of the clutch, but you would still be able to shift.  I shift motorcycle transmissions all the time without even pulling in the clutch lever.  Just chop the throttle and pull on the shift pedal.  Finding neutral with the engine running, that's another story.  If the clutch is dragging, it is very difficult to find neutral when the engine is running.  Just a little drag makes that operation a real PIA.


"I think based on the information you provided that wear between the cam lobe and actuating shaft is preventing the disks from fully separating when I pull in the clutch and this is causing it to burn up. Does this sound plausible or am I totally out of reality?"

I'm not gonna say it's impossible, but I think it's highly unlikely.  As the clutch wears, the pressure disk is moving to the right, and that results in increased movement to the left when you go to disengage the clutch.   For instance, the release cam travels about .070" when you pull in the clutch lever.  I'm gonna guess that by design, the freeplay on the internal release components is about .010".  So, when you pull on the clutch lever, the release cam has to travel .010" before all the freeplay is taken up and the cam starts to push on the pushrod.  That leaves .060" of remaining travel to disengage the clutch.

As the clutch wears, the freeplay is reduced.  So, let's say that the clutch wears sufficiently to use up the .010" of freeplay.  Now when you pull the lever you have the full .070" of cam travel to disengage the clutch.  So as the clutch wears your disengagement travel will increase.


You state that you don't have problems finding neutral with the engine running.  IMO, you do not have a clutch drag problem.  But that automatic shift from 2nd into neutral doesn't sound good.  There's a good chance that's associated with your shift linkage hitting the alternator cover.  Different problem, save that for another post.

When you discovered the first worn out pressure disk, was the hub also worn out?  You said you replaced the pressure disk, did you also replace the hub.  I have this old picture of your worn-out pressure disk.  That is really bad.  Is the current pressure disk also worn this bad?  If you wanna do a step-by-step I am willing to help, but you're gonna have to throw up pictures when I ask for them, and your gonna have to try your best to follow directions.

This is a helluvalot of wear.
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Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en
Reply #43 - 05/04/24 at 05:56:01
 
Mike, your explanation and detail is about as good as it gets! Thanks for sharing - I’m learning too!

Philly obviously needs to replace the worn out parts like his pressure plate and any worn down discs, but in your expert opinion what part(s) are failing and causing the issue?

Or do you think it’s an assembly issue even though Philly is pretty confident he’s assembled everything correctly?  You probably remember that I had a heck of a time wrapping my head around the orientation/direction of the wave washer (even after you sent me a visual and I studied the Clymer manual).
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Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en
Reply #44 - 05/04/24 at 07:27:06
 
DBM, do you know what the interface between the #7 pushrod and #10 bearing looks like?

I typically find a burr on the edge of the pushrod whenever I work on it.  And I usually round both ends of the rod before reinstalling it. This will shorten the pushrod so you need to start with a longer 1.  I feel this improves the engagement with #5 cam as the rounded end will rotate easier in the pocket rather than the sharp edge bear against the pocket.

I also pick the length of rod so that 12.5mm sticks out of the spider when installed.  13mm is too long and will disengage the clutch when you install the cover.
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