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Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it end? (Read 519 times)
ohiomoto
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Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en
Reply #15 - 05/02/24 at 12:15:31
 
Wow, that plate is fried!!!  And, it looks oddly dry?  

Given the low HP of this bike, no riding style would cause that.  (If you have serious doubts about your riding style ride with someone more experienced and ask them for help or check out some YouTube videos.)

I would confirm that you have the hub washers, gears, baskets, wave washers, arms/actuators, etc properly installed.  I would also replace or confirm that you have the correct number of plates and that the steel plates are within spec.  

I have nothing against Barnett, but I've never found plates that work better than OEM.  My experience with clutch replacements has been mostly with motocross bikes but all of my MX bikes produced 40-50hp the HP which is much more than the 25-30 a stock LS650 produces.

I would be putting a full set or OEM springs, fiber and steel plates.  I would probably replace the pressure plate as well.  I would also inspect the basket for groves on the fingers.  If they have wear I would file those smooth or replace the basket as well.

I'm no rod length expert (insert jokes here) but your are on the right track IF you have confirmed the condition and installation of the above items, but I think you are overlooking something bigger here.

LASTLY...

Make sure you are using oil that is suitable for wet clutches and...

This my sound like a dumb question but are you making sure your clutch cable is properly adjusted and there is play in your clutch lever?  


Edit: I see you are using Rotilla so oil should be good.
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Surviving Philly
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Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en
Reply #16 - 05/02/24 at 14:14:31
 
Cables always adjusted with correct free play at the lever -- Ohio that disk In the picture I dried off before taking the picture, but oil is changed very frequently in this bike, always with rotella T4.

I'll make sure to replace both of the thrust washers, pressure plate needs to be replaced without question but also I'll replace the wave washer and the other one.
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Dave
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Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en
Reply #17 - 05/02/24 at 17:54:23
 
From the looks of that clutch - there is some reason that the spring pressure is not making it to the clutch and squeezing the plates together properly.  It looks like a clutch that has not had the proper "slack", "free play" or whatever you want to call the clearance that allows the clutch plates to get squeezed together.

A stock Savage engine should not be able to burn up clutches that are assembled and adjusted properly.
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ohiomoto
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Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en
Reply #18 - 05/02/24 at 18:46:22
 
What Dave said...something is wrong and it will keep eating clutches until you figure it out.

My clutch slips a little before the bike is warmed up.  It's done it since I bought it with 3,500 miles on it.  It works perfectly fine once it's ridden a few miles and stays strong until it sits overnight or longer.   I have put ~20k miles on it since I've owned the bike and its performance hasn't changed.
 
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Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en
Reply #19 - 05/02/24 at 18:53:22
 
So, it seems to be the general consensus is that rider input is playing a part, but that something is clearly wrong.

I'm positive I'm assembling correctly, Ive done this so many times now I've gotten the full job down to an hour doing this outside on the sidewalk.

My current plan is to replace the following parts according to the diagram above: 2,3,4,6,13,14,16,18,19,20,21,22,23,24. This is every component I can see that could be having any mechanical effect on this issue, excluding 17,25 (hub and basket) because they are both expensive and show no signs of wear based on my last inspection.

In terms of what mechanical issues could be causing it, the culprits I'm eyeballing are numbers 4, 19.

Finally regarding the springs -- I want to replace everything here OEM, but I'm considering stronger springs. DBM in the chart you listed for spring testing, it looks like one is OEM, one is BARNETT and the other one I can't make out. Which springs are those and do you run them?

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ohiomoto
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Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en
Reply #20 - 05/02/24 at 18:54:59
 
I would consider new OEM springs, fiber plates, and metal plates to go along with the rest of your parts list.   All of that stuff is smoked.  When in doubt, only OEM parts.  You want to eliminate as many variables as possible.

Beyond that, I'm looking at the side cover, and the clutch-related bits installed on it... those rods.
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DragBikeMike
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Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en
Reply #21 - 05/02/24 at 19:00:11
 
"8. Opened it back up again, and noticed the spring bolts all had worn heads... the shorter rod was causing the entire pack to move forward in the basket when the clutch is fully engaged because the shorter rod compresses the clutch more than the middle or longer rod.....that's when I realized the rod length effects the compression of the springs when the clutch is fully engaged, and therefore the longer rod actually has the pack less compressed than the shorter ones, and because of this it has to be pushing the arm outside the case DOWN, with the longer one pushing it the furthest down of the three."

The shorter pushrod does not "cause" the clutch to move "forward" in the basket, the shorter pushrod "allows" the release plate and pressure disk to move farther right and squeeze the plates.

The shorter rod does not "compress" the clutch more than the middle or longer rods, it "allows" the springs to move the release plate and pressure disk farther to the right and squeeze the plates.

As your clutch wears, the pressure disk and release plate move to the right, toward the release cam.  The release cam has a hard stop that is built into the clutch cover.  As wear continues, all of the clearance between the pushrod and the release cam gets used up, until the mechanism is hard up.  At that point, the release mechanism begins to prevent the release plate from moving any farther to the right, and the pressure exerted by the springs can no longer pinch the plates together.

So, the logical solution is to install a shorter pushrod.  That lets the release plate and pressure disk move a little farther to the right so that it can pinch the plates together.  But......as the release plate keeps moving to the right, the bolts are getting closer to the release shaft.  You can keep putting in shorter pushrods to account for the wear, but the bolts will eventually hit something.  In your case, the shorter pushrod combined with the excessive wear on the pressure disk cause the release plate to move so far to the right that the bolts started to hit.

It's a double whammy.  As the clutch wears, the release plate and pressure disk move right.  As the release plate and pressure disk move right, the installed height of the springs gets larger, and spring preload goes down.  So, you are losing friction due to the wear, and you are also losing spring preload.

Checking for free play at the hand lever is good.  As I recall, it should be about 1/8".  Checking for free play at the release lever on the clutch cover is also a good thing, but it is deceptive.  Don't fall into a trap.  Just because you see free play on the release lever on the clutch cover, doesn't mean that there is free play in the release mechanism inside (cam/pushrod/release plate).  The release cam and release shaft are not a tight fit.   There is lost motion.  The shaft rotates within the cam, and over time that rotation within the cam gets worse.  You can hold the release cam hard on the stop in the clutch cover and the lever arm and shaft will still rotate a bit.  That can fool you into thinking that there is free play between the pushrod and the cam, when in fact the release assembly is up hard and preventing the pressure disk from squeezing the plates together.

I recorded a vid and uploaded to YouTube but there is some sort of glitch.  It's hung up in "processing", something to do with converting from SD to HD.  If it ever gets uploaded, I will post the link.
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DragBikeMike
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Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en
Reply #22 - 05/02/24 at 19:01:43
 
This shows the release cam resting on its hard stop in the clutch cover.
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Release_Cam_on_Hard_Stop.jpg

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DragBikeMike
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Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en
Reply #23 - 05/02/24 at 19:02:42
 
See the hard stop in the clutch cover.
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Release_Cam_Hard_Stop.jpg

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DragBikeMike
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Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en
Reply #24 - 05/02/24 at 19:25:04
 
In all likelihood, your accelerated wear is due to the constant stop and go riding in the City of Brotherly Love.  You can mitigate the condition by pulling the thing into neutral at each stoplight, and limiting how much you slip the clutch during takeoff.  But there is a chance that your problems are related to assembly and adjustment.

The release cam and release shaft wear (especially the shaft).  That results in excessive lost motion.  That excessive lost motion will fool you into installing a longer pushrod to recenter the release arm between the marks on the engine case.  I'm finding that those marks aren't the best indicator of correct release mechanism geometry.  

I've had good luck with installing a steel shim to tighten up the fit between the release cam and release arm.  You have to be careful to make sure that the shim is captured, but it's not too difficult.
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Release_Cam_Shim_6.JPG

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DragBikeMike
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Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en
Reply #25 - 05/02/24 at 19:26:38
 
See how the release shaft wears.  I currently have a .012" thick shim installed between the flat on the shaft and the release cam.  That's a lot of lost motion.
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Release_Arm_Wear_12_001.jpg

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Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en
Reply #26 - 05/02/24 at 19:27:54
 
Whoooooooooooooooaaaaah DBM am I reading this correctly? You're saying that the release cam and rod may be worn and that could be causing the clutch to be partially engaged when when I have freeplay at the lever?? I've never checked the arm for freeplay, and to be honest kind of disregarded when you mentioned that earlier but now that you outlined this I could absolutely see there being an issue. Very very interesting thank you for the write up!!
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DragBikeMike
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Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en
Reply #27 - 05/02/24 at 19:27:59
 
See how the shim must be captured.  You wouldn't want that steel shim goin through a gear mesh.
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Shim__012_Lwr_View.jpg

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DragBikeMike
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Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en
Reply #28 - 05/02/24 at 19:28:34
 
Another view from the top side.
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Shim__012_Upper_View.jpg

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DragBikeMike
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Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en
Reply #29 - 05/02/24 at 19:38:57
 
Dave's suggestion regarding the extra steel plate seems like a good solution for you.  You would have to get your old pressure disk machined (pretty easy job assuming there is enough meat left).  You would want it cut back right about .060" (1.5mm) from the original thickness.  Then install a steel plate between the pressure disk and the fiber disk.  That way, you would have a steel plate taking all the wear instead of the aluminum pressure disk.  The material in way of the splines should provide a good reference for the original thickness.  Howzabout throwin up a picture so we can see how much wear you have.

There is some concern over disengagement of the female splines on the pressure disk from the male splines on the hub.  That would have to be checked out, but I think you have a good chance at pullin it off.

This shows a steel installed between the pressure disk and the last fiber plate.
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Extra_Steel_Correct_Location_002.jpg

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