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Main Jet Too Large Symptoms? (Read 40 times)
ThumperPaul
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Main Jet Too Large Symptoms?
03/07/24 at 07:13:47
 
I’ve read about the symptoms of the main jet being too large, but what’s the biggest tell?  My bike runs very good with no major issues, except for unevenness on deceleration and a tendency to almost want to stall when coming to a stop.

Usual symptoms of too big main jet:
1) sooty exhaust pipe
2) black/almost wet spark plug
3) sluggish roll on power especially at WOT or inability to rev all the way up

I can’t say I really have the symptoms above, but maybe close and won’t know until I test something different.

Should I try going down 1 size on the main jet and give it a try?  Or could the almost stalling on deceleration be more likely caused by the needle clip position?  It’s in the 2nd from top grove (1 grove leaner than middle position).

This is on a Mikuni VM36 round slide carb.  I’ve read thru Lancer’s thread on his performance VM36 carb and the technical reference section.  Excerpts paraphrased:

A) 170-200 main jet with mods like bigger cam, piston, more open exhaust like dyna
B) start at 185 for stock
C) start at 200 at sea level for stock

I have a 200 MJ installed at sea level.  My bike is stock except for a more open exhaust (turn out style, minimal baffle). Considering a 190 MJ.
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Dave
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Re: Main Jet Too Large Symptoms?
Reply #1 - 03/07/24 at 08:34:22
 
I have read that one way to test for a too large of main jet is to accelerate under full throttle.....and once you reach a steady pull you can start to roll off the throttle.  If you feel the bike begin to pull harder just as you start to close the throttle - then the main jet is too big.

The reason that this happens is that when the throttle starts to close the mixture begins to lean out with a closing throttle.

Also a rich mixture makes the bike a bit sluggish.  When I am not sure I start going bigger on the main jet until it is obvious and you can hear the bike begin to bog down under full throttle....then I start dropping sizes until I can feel the bike hunt/surge at full throttle (which is too lean).  I then know the correct jet is between those two extremes.

I doubt that a rich main jet would result in a problem when you close the throttle.  The only sources of fuel with a closed throttle is the pilot circuit.  I would expect the pilot jet and the idle mixture screw to be the place to look.  You might also try raising the idle speed a tad.  (Is this issue better or worse when the bike is cold)?
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ThumperPaul
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Re: Main Jet Too Large Symptoms?
Reply #2 - 03/07/24 at 09:35:33
 
Thanks Dave.

Adjusting the air/fuel mixture to a leaner position (a 1/2 turn counterclockwise on this carb that meters air) helped immensely.  I did that yesterday.  It starts well, idles smoothly, and no hesitation or sputtering as it transitions to the needle.

The WOT test you describe seems backwards to me.  If you are WOT and easy off the throttle and then it speeds up = too lean (too small MJ).  By reducing the amount of air when closing the throttle, you are bringing the air/fuel mix back into balance.  I've experienced this lean condition before and resolved it by going 1 size larger main jet.

FYI forgot to mention - I have some afterfire on deceleration/throttle chop.  It's not terrible and being a known phenomenon of our big thumpers by nature, it's hard for me to discern anything from this in and of itself.  BUT, afterfire is caused by unburnt fuel entering the exhaust pipe and going bang.  So....a smaller main jet (less fuel) would seem to help resolve this.  Yes/No?

I know this is trial and error at this point.

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DragBikeMike
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Re: Main Jet Too Large Symptoms?
Reply #3 - 03/07/24 at 11:19:53
 
You can eliminate all the scratchin your head by actually collecting some measurable data.  Put a camera on your speedo and record some acceleration pulls.  Then use a stopwatch to time the pulls.  Change your main jet and do some more pulls.  If it slows down, you are goin the wrong direction with the main jet.

This old post should be helpful.

http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1577664388/0#5

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ThumperPaul
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Re: Main Jet Too Large Symptoms?
Reply #4 - 03/07/24 at 11:42:53
 
Thanks Mike.  That means the operator would have to be exactly consistent in the throttle pulls!  I’ll do it old school by feel and sound!  Rigging up and camera and operating a stop watch is too technical for me!

With as many VM36 Lancer has sold, I find it frustrating their isn’t more definitive guidance or reported set-up and results.

To say the MJ should be 170-200 for a modified bike TO start at a 200 for stock set-up at sea level doesn’t exactly jibe.  At least I’m in the right ballpark with the 200 at sea level and close to stock (just exhaust).

My other problem is that I don’t have a good comparison.  I’ve never experienced a new stock bike and I can’t remember exactly how well my other lightly modified used bikes accelerated and acted under WOT.  If my memory serves correctly, my other bikes had a little better pull.  But, heck, who knows - you saw the cylinder in Woody.
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Dave
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Re: Main Jet Too Large Symptoms?
Reply #5 - 03/07/24 at 11:55:43
 
When I was adjusting my VM carb, I mounted an oxygen sensor and it showed me a lot of what I thought about carbs - was wrong.

I was surprised to learn that when you close the throttle - the intake vacuum does increase - but the mixture goes lean!  This happens because the slide drops and the tapered jet needle begins to close off the needle jet.  When the throttle is completely closed the needle is way down in the jet and has almost completely stopped any fuel from flowing.....even though the high intake vacuum is pulling a lot of air past the nearly closed slide.

The popping/banging/after fire when you are decelerating with a closed throttle (or close the throttle when shifting) creates a lean mixture, and it can become so lean the spark plug cannot ignite the mixture.  The fuel/air therefore goes through the engine and into the exhaust unburned - then either it gets hot enough to ignite in the exhaust or the engine does fire a time or two and the flame into the header ignites the unburned mixture in the exhaust.  You can easily reduce the amount of this noise by opening the throttle a tiny bit to allow more fuel/air to enter the cylinder....or not completely closing the throttle while shifting.  Once you get into this habit it becomes second nature when you are on your Savage.

The fuel/air mixture also goes lean when you are opening the throttle.  When the slide goes up - the intake vacuum goes down and less fuel is pulled out of the jets.  This is a very temporary condition and goes away very quickly once you stop moving the throttle.  This is why some carbs have accelerator pumps - it corrects this temporary lean situation when the throttle is opened.  If you "crack" the throttle open quickly - you really exaggerate the lean condition.  I can remember when I was in high school if I rode my friends Honda Sl100 - a quick throttle would result in a large "cough" as the engine stopped running....you had to open the throttle a bit slower than "instantly".

I looked to see where I saw that comment about rolling off the throttle and better running for an instant indicated a too large main jet - it may have been for a CV carb....not sure.

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ThumperPaul
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Re: Main Jet Too Large Symptoms?
Reply #6 - 03/07/24 at 12:17:41
 
Interesting Dave.  I know it's not too lean.  I have other evidence that suggests I might be a tad rich.  I'm also already at the high end of recommendations running a 200 main jet.

Now I'm kinda at the point of just leaving it alone.  I also don't have any gas mileage results to tell me anything.
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