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Piece of dowel rod in cylinder (Read 708 times)
ThumperPaul
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Re: Piece of dowel rod in cylinder
Reply #45 - 11/20/23 at 10:39:57
 
Thanks for all the time and thought put into this DragBikeMike. †Itís futile. †Itís not coming back out the plug hole. †I said it was about 1/4Ē diameter, but itís probably closer to 5/16Ē. †I havenít even measured the remaining dowel rod for accuracy due to extreme disgust. †It barely fit in the hole. †The camera is telling me itís a bit longer than the 3/8-1/2Ē that I initially thought. †Hard to tell and get perspective in the cylinder with the camera.

Even if I could get the grabber with thin jaws on it, Iím not very confident I could get it through the hole.

Vacuum ainít gunna work.

Right now, Iím inclined to try to soften it with some carb cleaner in the cylinder. †Then with no gas or spark, hit the starter button 2-3 seconds at a time and see what happens to the little bastard.

When the piston is TDC, how wide is the gap from the top of the piston to the head/valves (compression gap)? Wondering if it will be tight enough to munch it, or if the dowel would have to magically find vertical and get munched that way. †Iím beyond frustrated!
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Surviving Philly
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Re: Piece of dowel rod in cylinder
Reply #46 - 11/20/23 at 10:52:25
 
This may not be realistic but following this for entertainment, I think I would try to get two literal chop sticks in there and see if I can orient it in a way it wants to come back out the spark plug hole. It is a Japanese bike after all.

At what point do you just decide to pull the head?
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ThumperPaul
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Re: Piece of dowel rod in cylinder
Reply #47 - 11/20/23 at 11:37:01
 
SurvivingPhilly,

Forceps or this grabber tool with thin grabbers won't fit and also allow room to get it thru the hole.  Chop Stix ain't gunna work either.  Plus chop stix are just more wood that would probably decide to break off in there too.

I've read the technical posts here and Clymer's manual.  I'm not mechanically up to the job of a top end "tear" down.  And this bike isn't worth the cost of taking it to a shop.  Even if I did decide to take it to a shop, I don't know a mechanic I trust to know the nuances of this bike.  They'd probably f-it up worse and charge me a small fortune for the F-job!  I read some thread on this site that a Suzuki dealership mechanic couldn't even install the dreaded plug cap correctly.  And I want to trust them with a complete top end job???  Screw that...
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Re: Piece of dowel rod in cylinder
Reply #48 - 11/20/23 at 11:40:43
 
not a bad idea, but let's think chop sticks for beginners.
and they'll need to be thin, 2 1/8" music wires and wrap a rubber band around them.
position the rubber band so it'll end up at the spark plug hole when fully inserted for maximum movement.
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Re: Piece of dowel rod in cylinder
Reply #49 - 11/20/23 at 11:54:33
 
The happy button is your path to happiness...

or, sadness if the valves are open!! †Wink

  • I'm (sort of) joking!! †
  • I assume that little piece of wood will be no match for the piston and rod, but that piston isn't a hammer and wasn't designed to smash things. †Plus, you know what happens when you assume.
  • I brought up white liquor because I assume if the wood were punky or soft, it would have a better chance of being smashed to bits.
  • I wouldn't try anything this DUMB without some testing with the remaining dowel rod. † †
  • How hard is the dowel? †What effect will carb cleaner have on it? †You want to know these things before hitting that button.
  • You can safely fix this by removing the head or possibly some of the other suggested methods. †It could be a very expensive repair if you damage any of the components inside the engine.


But, it might be possible to make the wood softer. †I'm not recommending this, you should probably just pop the head off (or get some termites).

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ThumperPaul
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Re: Piece of dowel rod in cylinder
Reply #50 - 11/20/23 at 12:10:30
 
OhioMoto,

I have a lab test going on. †A replica piece of the donor dowel rod is soaking in Berryman B60 carb/fuel system cleaner. †After 2 days, it is starting to marinate and get slightly softer. †It's not real hard wood. †It's maybe soft pine consistency and the wood grain runs lengthwise. †I can split it/splinter it lengthwise fairly easily with my fingers/finger nails.

Agree - more worried about the valves and seats than the piston.

Is white liquor like Bacardi? †Do I drink it or put it in the cylinder? †Seriously - I don't want to put water and/or acid (or base) in there... †Even if I decide to use carb cleaner, I will want to change the oil after. †Water and acid or base don't seem like something I want to try.

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Re: Piece of dowel rod in cylinder
Reply #51 - 11/20/23 at 12:23:33
 
But a cracked piston or bent rod will ruin your day in a hurry!!  

The fact that our resident experts haven't commented on this possibility makes me think it is a bad idea.  haha
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ThumperPaul
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Re: Piece of dowel rod in cylinder
Reply #52 - 11/20/23 at 13:11:07
 
I agree it's a bad idea.  I'm all out of good ideas and trying things.

Find somebody to remove the head and cylinder = expensive.

Take my chances and maybe get lucky.  If it craters, find somebody to remove the head and cylinder = expensive + more new parts.  OR, just sell the bike as a project or for parts.

Argh!!
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Re: Piece of dowel rod in cylinder
Reply #53 - 11/20/23 at 13:36:37
 
Why don't you at least try jacking the valves open like I suggested? †With the piston up very close to TDC I bet you could actually get a look see at that chunk of christmas tree (specially if you removed the intake manifold). †It doesn't cost anything and its an easy job to jack the valves open. †Nothin to lose as long as you don't rotate the engine with the valves jacked open.

A 5/16" dowel should be about .312" diameter. †I think you could get the intake valve open at least .340". †It's close, but seems like it would be worth a try as long as you don't rotate the engine with the valves jacked open.
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Re: Piece of dowel rod in cylinder
Reply #54 - 11/20/23 at 13:52:40
 
I don't know why the parts grabber didn't work. I'd use a pipe cleaner to get it right under the spark plug hole and grab it. Shape the pipe cleaner into a little hook.
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Re: Piece of dowel rod in cylinder
Reply #55 - 11/20/23 at 20:05:23
 


If you spray the wood with starter fluid, turn it into a brittle piece of charcoal by then burning it, break it up by mashing a chopstick around through the spark plug hole, remove the intake and header, and have a friend put †hands over those openings providing some suction, you might be able to get the ashes/ tiny charcoal bits out with a shop vac. This is my real suggestion -- although I did just get back from the bar †Lips Sealed.
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Re: Piece of dowel rod in cylinder
Reply #56 - 11/20/23 at 20:22:36
 
DBM - How am I going to see or do anything through the valve opening?  I won't be able to see the piston.  I know it won't cost me anything but I don't see how it's going to work.  And I'm not capable to do a top end job and tearing it down and reassembling (or I'd do that).

I can't get the darn thing to sit still under the plug hole.  The grabber could probably grab it, BUT it has to come out the hole vertically.  This is like that game "Operation" wearing a blindfold.

It's about to get some lighter fluid.  Soak good.  Light.  Do it again.  Do it again.  Make charcoal and vacuum.  Then change the oil to flush out any lighter fluid that flows into the crankcase past the piston rings.

I'm out of good ideas.  Fishing it out ain't happening...


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Re: Piece of dowel rod in cylinder
Reply #57 - 11/21/23 at 00:58:49
 
Paul, I'm not suggesting you try and remove the broken piece through the spark plug hole. †That hole is way too small. †But the intake port is quite large, and each intake valve is 33mm in diameter. †When the intake valves are fully open you can look right into the combustion chamber and cylinder. †Especially if the intake manifold is removed.

I suggested you position the piston very close to TDC, then jack open the intake valve. †I believe you should be able to get that valve open at least 8.5mm, maybe even more. †I suggested the left-hand intake since your bike will be on the side stand. †With the valve jacked open, I think there is a good chance you will be able to see the wood piece through the intake port and open valve.

If you then jack open the right-hand exhaust valve, it should permit good cross flow through the cylinder if you suck through the intake port with a good, powerful cannister vacuum. †If the spark plug is removed and the exhaust valve is open, you might be able to get enough airflow across the top of the piston to drag the little wooden chunk out through the open intake valve. †I never suggested that you try and get it out through the spark plug hole.

You might even find that the process works better if you plug the spark plug hole and jack open both exhaust valves. †You will have to play around with it. †It might also turn out that access is better through the exhaust side, or that it's easier to see into the cylinder through the exhaust since it exits off the right-hand side of the cylinder head. †

When the valves are open you can see into the cylinder and combustion chamber pretty good, certainly better than through the spark plug hole. †I think it's worth a try.

I also don't think you should be worried about removing the cylinder head. †Best way to learn is just do it. †It's not like you have to rush. †Take your time, ask plenty questions, post lots of pics, and feel great when you are all finished and have a good engine. †If you break it, no big deal. †As I recall, you picked the scooter up for almost nothing. †The knowledge & skill you gain will be worth the money you spend.
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Re: Piece of dowel rod in cylinder
Reply #58 - 11/21/23 at 03:54:31
 
I know how desperate you can become when something like this goes wrong. The tension can be very high. And how easily things escalate. So first of all I want to say; take your time.

And maybe you can take another look at this:


The spark plug hole is in the center of a dome.


Now look at the 1st drawing:

When you let water flow through the inlet, the piece of wood is brought in front of the spark plug hole.
If there is a constant flow of water, you are able to use an iron wire to manipulate the wood so that it can pass through the spark plug hole.



I would make something that allows you to attach the garden hose to the inlet, so that you don,t have to pay attention to it.


You can also use the vacuum.
You can make a bucket with 2 holes in the lid so that you can suck up water whit out getting the vacuum cleaner wet.



You can explain to some children what is going on. They really like that kind of challenge . You can then sit comfortably on a chair with a beer. Smiley
You can also turn it into a competition with a prize. Smiley

A variation on this theme could be to let water flow through the spark plug hole and push the inlet valve open as Drag bike mike brilliantly suggests.



Once the wood is out, reassemble everything and go for a long ride. Smiley
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ThumperPaul
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Re: Piece of dowel rod in cylinder
Reply #59 - 11/21/23 at 05:14:05
 
Thanks guys.  And youíre right Mike, I should give my skills a shot at removing the head and exploring given I donít have much money at stake.  I will try working through the intake (larger valves).  My thought is that the valve stem will cut the valve opening diameter in roughly half.  Thereby not allowing enough room to get it out.  I knew you meant trying to get it out the valve opening and not thru the plug hole.

Floating it has some merit, but whatever way I try, the little sucker has to be grabbed lengthwise to extract it thru whatever opening might work.

Learning to do a top end tear down and reassembly may be on my bucket list.  Also gives me a good opportunity to swap the cam chain tensioner and plug cap.

Obviously lighter fluid and fire is a bad joking idea.  My luck would be that the lighter fluid would seep past the rings into the crankcase and then Iíd have a big ass fire and explosion!  RUD - rapid unplanned disassembly!
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