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12 USD Carburettor (Read 421 times)
DragBikeMike
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Re: 12 USD Carburettor
Reply #45 - 07/27/23 at 21:43:12
 
Moarpower, just as Sneezy said, see reply #67 to the old post.  On that page, it gives all the details on slide measurement.  You should have a #7 slide.  A letter "W" drill bit just fits under the leading edge of the cutaway.  As far as markings go, a genuine Keihin slide has a logo and the slide number on the bottom of the slide like the attached picture shows.  

Here's what a genuine slide marking looks like.

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DragBikeMike
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Re: 12 USD Carburettor
Reply #46 - 07/27/23 at 21:55:59
 
Here is a video of my bike's throttle response.  I can snap it open pretty fast and there is instant response.  That's with a #8 slide and an "EGK" needle.  A #7 slide should be better.

The video also shows how the bike tolerates a chopped throttle.  Note that towards the end of the video, I repeatedly accelerate and chop the throttle.  No backfires, no kabooms.  You shouldn't have to hold the throttle open or set the idle extra high in order to keep the thing from backfiring.  I set my idle at about 1300 rpm, and when I decelerate, I simply chop the throttle completely.

As Dave mentioned, you can see that the fuel air mixture goes grossly lean when I decelerate, but there's no backfire.  I don't know exactly why these bikes backfire, but my experience has been that the slide needle plays a bigger role than the pilot jet or the idle mixture screw.  Again, I can't explain why, it's simply been my experience that when I get the slide needle squared away the backfire is gone.  That has been my experience with the PWKs, the VM, and the stock carb.  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SEvGojazP8
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DragBikeMike
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Re: 12 USD Carburettor
Reply #47 - 07/27/23 at 22:12:15
 
Here is a video of how the PWK works on a normal freeway merge.  It runs smooth, pulls hard, and revs willingly.  No hicups or hesitation, no misfire.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T58wkGD8VjQ

There isn't anything special about my carb.  Other than the smaller main air bleed I installed, it's just basic tuning.  No add-on power jet or intelijet or thunderjet or dial-a-jet.  Just regular tuning. It ran pretty much the same with the .075" air bleed too.  If your carb doesn't run similar to this, then something isn't right.  You shouldn't need a more restrictive air cleaner.  That's moving backwards, depriving the engine of air.  I have a very large K&N air filter.  It works fine.  It is possible to force a carburetor to work a bit better by restricting the air filter, but that's simply covering up the real problem.

If you have a #7 slide, a .110" needle jet, a .075" main air bleed, and that DGK needle, it should run similar to mine.

How did you install the carb?  Is it on the stock manifold?  If it's on the stock manifold, did you replace the stock clamp with the special Ideal clamp?  Have you checked the manifold for air leaks? ThumperPaul had a lot of trouble with his PWK and it turned out to be a leaky manifold.
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DragBikeMike
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Re: 12 USD Carburettor
Reply #48 - 07/29/23 at 10:56:52
 
I forgot to mention, the DGK needle is a leaner needle than the DDJ.  I must clarify.  The DGK is leaner from 1/8 to 1/4 throttle, but richer from 1/4 to 3/4 throttle.  DBM 8/1/23   It's a knockoff so no way for you to know if the as-delivered needle is in fact a DDJ.  The DGK has a slightly larger basic diameter (2.695 vs 2.685), and the taper starts farther down the needle (39.95 vs 36.80).  Both needles have the same taper (1 degree 45 seconds minutes).  This link shows how the needle designations work.  It tells you what each letter in the designation stands for (angle, L1, basic diameter).

https://jetsrus.com/a_jets_by_carburetor_type/needle_keihin_N427-48.html

I believe you mentioned that you have the needle clip in the top groove.  That should be pretty lean.  I would be careful with that.

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« Last Edit: 08/01/23 at 13:07:59 by DragBikeMike »  

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Moarpower
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Re: 12 USD Carburettor
Reply #49 - 07/30/23 at 22:40:16
 
Thanks Mike.  I thought the DDJ was leaner.

I assumed that the bogging when backing off the throttle was from it being rich as it was worse with the clip in positions 2 to 5
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Re: 12 USD Carburettor
Reply #50 - 07/31/23 at 10:37:16
 
My comment on the DDJ vs DGK was simply to let you know where the two needles fall on the lean/rich scale.  The link to the needle chart should be useful.  It's very important to know where a particular component falls on the lean/rich scale so you can arrive at an informed assessment of any particular change.  If you install a needle that you believe is richer, when in fact it is leaner, you will obviously arrive at an incorrect assessment of how the change worked and what to try next. That's why I previously warned you about cheap jet kits.  

It's hard to express in words how an engine is running, and you & I use different terminology to describe things.  At this point, I have no idea if you are rich or lean.  I simply want you to be aware of where a particular part falls on the lean/rich scale.

Not having solid confirmation regarding your main air bleed, your needle jet, and your slide cutaway makes any sort of assessment close to impossible.

What about the clamp on your manifold?  Did you install a good clamp or is the stock clamp on there?
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Re: 12 USD Carburettor
Reply #51 - 07/31/23 at 23:56:59
 
A good clamp the type suggested here on the forums is what Im using. It gets nice and tight. Slide is a number 7.

Reading the needle charts is melting my dyslexic brain. Graphs and things I really struggle with.

The DDJ and DGK both seem to run well right up to the last little bit of throttle before the main jet kicks in. They both sputter like they are going rich at that point and my only choice is to move to clip position 1 which I fear is a little lean as the bike is running hot but the sputtering stops.

I assume that the final taper is slightly too rich? IM not sure if changing the main jet will have any effect but I will see if it does.  Is there any needle closer to the EGK or DDJ (The DGK is a little lean) that will be slightly leaner at the end? Ideally, Id like to run in position 2 or 3.

Ill try again to understand the needle chart.
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Re: 12 USD Carburettor
Reply #52 - 08/01/23 at 13:06:38
 
I must apologize, I gave you some semi-bogus info.  I have been struggling with your problem, trying to understand what is going on with your bike.  As a result, I keep going through needle charts and my old notes.  Last night I realized I had given you some misleading info.

I told you the DGK was a leaner needle (leaner than the DDJ).  That is not exactly correct.

The DGK is leaner at 1/8 to 1/4 throttle, but it is richer at 1/4 to 3/4 throttle.  That's important since your problem occurs at the higher throttle openings.  I have to correct my post.

Your concern over being too lean is valid.  You can hurt it with a lean mixture.

One thing I noted on my bike was that the DGK needle had a tendency to control fuel delivery at wide open throttle.  Typically, you want the main jet to be the controlling orifice at WOT.  The needle and needle jet should be out of the picture by the time you get to WOT.  That's why I switched to the EGK needle.  The EGK has a steeper taper (2 degrees vs 1 degree 45 minutes).  The EGK is richer than the DGK from 1/4 to 3/4 throttle.  Note that the needle chart only shows the needle's effect from 1/8 to 3/4 throttle (1/8 to 1/4 horizontal top bar, 1/4 to 3/4 vertical side bar).  The needle should drop out of the picture past 3/4 throttle, and the main jet should be controlling the fuel delivery.  But you seem to be affecting your WOT mixture when you drop the needle position by installing the e-clip in the top groove.  That indicates that your needle is controlling WOT mixture.
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DragBikeMike
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Re: 12 USD Carburettor
Reply #53 - 08/01/23 at 13:15:54
 
I believe you are now running a #140 main jet.  That should be enough main jet, but you have a misfire at very high rpm, and to clear the misfire you drop the needle to the lowest position (your position 1).  Do I have that correct?

If that is correct, then you are clearing up your misfire at WOT by leaning out the mixture, but a #140 main jet is simply not large enough to cause a misfire under those conditions.  Are you still running that straight pipe with the baffle inside?
I went back through all your old posts.  You have been struggling with this high rpm misfire for several months.  You had the high rpm misfire with your stock carburetor too.  

5/21/23 you said:
“The only issues I found on the ride today were at very high rpm. I'm not sure if it was in need of air or fuel. I could try a larger main jet if that might help?  The hesitation/stuttering is only slight and at what feels like the top 10% of the rev range at WOT”


You got things cleaned up pretty good by installing a decent air filter, but you still had the slight misfire at WOT.  I believe in one post you removed your exhaust pipe extension with the baffle and it cleared up.

5/23/23 you said:
“Ok, a quick and dirty test with no intake and open header seemed to rev out well in 2nd gear. I didn't do it much, just 3 or 4 pulls. Bur it was responsive.”


Yesterday you said:
“The DDJ and DGK both seem to run well right up to the last little bit of throttle before the main jet kicks in. They both sputter like they are going rich at that point and my only choice is to move to clip position 1 which I fear is a little lean as the bike is running hot but the sputtering stops.”

Your bike is not behaving like I would expect.  You have a very unusual setup with an LS400 cylinder head and a Wossner piston.  Do you know what the valve sizes are?  Are the valves in the 400cc head the same size as the valves in the 650cc head?

You might possibly be struggling with a situation where your exhaust gasses are backing up at high rpm.  That can cause the engine to misfire. It would run normally up to a point and then start to load up and misfire.  Can you do another quick & dirty test to see if your baffle is the culprit.  Don’t get carried away, just remove the pipe extension and try it to see if the misfire is gone.  Lower gears only, don’t stretch it out.  If it’s lean, going WOT in the higher gears could hurt it.

If the valves in your 400 head are smaller than the valves in the 650 head, then the jetting requirements will be significantly different from a standard LS650 setup.  What can you tell us about the valves in that 400 head?  What size are the intake valves?  What size are the exhaust valves?
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DragBikeMike
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Re: 12 USD Carburettor
Reply #54 - 08/01/23 at 13:21:11
 
Your baffle seems very restrictive.  You mentioned there are a number of these plates over approximately a ten or twelve inch section of the pipe.  The pipe ahead of the baffle has very little volume.  There's no place for the hot exhaust gas to go.  It just backs up in the pipe.
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Re: 12 USD Carburettor
Reply #55 - 08/01/23 at 13:24:25
 
Given the baffle location shown in your picture, the area upstream is pretty much the stock header.  The inside diameter of the stock header is only 1.3".  There isn't much room in there for all that exhaust gas.
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Re: 12 USD Carburettor
Reply #56 - 08/01/23 at 15:09:44
 
Mike, thanks for taking the time to look into my questions like that. I really appreciate it.

What about the DGK led to it metering fuel at WOT? That's something I'd like to avoid.

I'll just clarify the current situation.

The issue isn't present at WOT. Sorry if my wording made it appear this way. It is present at 3/4 (maybe slightly past) while at higher revs.

Currently im running the 140 main and 40 pilot. The bike is great to ride with either the DDJ or DGK needle. However, they both seem to be too rich at their final taper.

This presents itself as great performance at WOT (no backfire or issues at WOT at all) and all through the rev range until just before the main jet takes over from the needle jet. At this point (and to be clear, I can deal with this issue and have fun riding regardless) it starts to break up and sputter, but the sputter  stops if I increase or decrease the throttle.
So to get this problem to appear on needle clip position 2, I have to hunt for it. Position 3 it's present over a wider section of the throttle range, 4 more so etc, with position 1 having it not present at all but being too lean all round.

I messaged Sudco and got this response

"The first letter is the taper angle, which affects more 1/2 - 3/4 throttle.
The second letter is the L1 length which affects more 1/4 - 1/2 throttle, like clip position.
The last letter is the straight portion diameter before the taper starts, which affects more 1/8 - 1/4 throttle.
They overlap a little but that is where there primary affect.

If you want a leaner taper than EGK then that would be DGK. If you wanted a leaner taper than DDJ, then that would be CDJ but we don't import that one, so there would be CCJ or CEJ. CCJ would be a half clip richer than CDJ and CEJ would be 1.5 clips leaner than CDJ.

The PWK carburetors are designed for 2 strokes. 2 strokes require more fuel also require oil to go through the carburetor as well so the passages are larger than a 4 stroke carburetor. When people try to run the PWK on 4 strokes they have trouble getting them lean enough to function well in all circuits"

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Re: 12 USD Carburettor
Reply #57 - 08/01/23 at 15:13:36
 
Regarding the valves on the 400 head, the part numbers are the same for almost the entire top end. Valves and springs etc are all the same part.

I think my best bet, besides trying different needles which I am enjoying anyway as I'm learning, is to open up the exhaust a bit to help it flow better.

I will make a new header and might even try removing the inner type from the stock one. I know this will be too big but it'll be a fun experiment.

Perhaps I should do another test without the rear tail pipe to see if the problem ceases?
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Re: 12 USD Carburettor
Reply #58 - 08/01/23 at 15:53:54
 
I just did a quick ride with the slip on tail pipe removed. Performance was slightly better over all and I couldn't find the 3/4 throttle stutter.
Maybe the stock header and crappy tail pipe are the issue. I might try removing some of the baffles
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Re: 12 USD Carburettor
Reply #59 - 08/01/23 at 16:00:07
 
In an ideal situation the volume inside the muffler should be the same as the volume inside the cylinder for best overall performance.  Look at the mufflers that the factories have on their bikes, they have adequate volume.
That is why the Dyna works so well on our engine, it has adequate volume.
A straight pipe, with or without baffles, does not have the volume and it is chronically difficult to jet/tune well in all throttle ranges.  Just like yours.
If the carb you are using is designed for 2stroke engines then it would seem that it would have additional issues for you to solve.  I’ve not used this type of carb so I’m not familiar with working out the issues.  DBM is the person for that since he has history with this one.


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