SuzukiSavage.com - Re: 33 people shot

justin_o_guy2 Serious Thumper Offline What happened? Posts: 55279 East Texas, 1/2 dallas/la.	Re: 33 people shot Reply #15 - 02/26/22 at 14:34:16 I was hoping you would address the points I made. You know,, like a conversation.
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WebsterMark Serious Thumper Offline SuzukiSavage.com Rocks! Posts: 13170 Gender:	Re: 33 people shot Reply #16 - 02/26/22 at 15:14:39 The majority of these shootings are done by a relatively small and easily identifiable demographic but we’re all gonna ignore it?
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Billynoneck

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Re: 33 people shot
Reply #17 - 02/26/22 at 15:16:38

justin_o_guy2 wrote on 02/26/22 at 14:34:16:

I was hoping you would address the points I made.
You know,, like a conversation.

Answer me this, will anything I say change your mind?

No?

So no point being specific, you have your mind set and nothing I say will change it even if you bothered to read and consider it, you have made that very clear in previous posts (and that's fine, that's your right)

That's not a conversation that's 2 people talking AT each other
and Ill be honest, I am pretty sure nothing you can say will change mine

You are a violent criminal. You Know the law abiding are not armed, because it's
Illegal.
You, violent criminal, are afraid of WHOM? Only criminals are armed, Right?

I agree with you to a certain extent, that's why a large number of guns need to be removed from the public arena, that cant be done quickly as the results would be catastrophic like you are implying, but it doesn't need to be done overnight, I can't remember how long it took NZ to do it but IF I remember right OZ did it over a 3 year period, so I don't see any reason America couldn't work out a 10 or 12-year plan to reduce not ban, maybe not even lower the number of guns just ad screening of some form, hell isn't something like that done to have a total ban on smoking (I think I might be getting my country's confused on that one)

Insert answers here.

Now, let's say ten to fifteen percent are good, upstanding citizens who have chosen to carry.
You, violent criminal, now have to evaluate the people around you if you want to rob the store. If it's around ten percent of the people who are armed and there are around twenty people milling around, meehh, might be two, might be none,, maybe ten..
Who knows?

You think that does not matter?

How about I'm walking down the street and some random person shoots me because I look at them wrong and they are disgruntled and had a bad day at work

or is that just the price I have to pay for freedom?

Its GOTTA matter.
How else do you explain Why crime drops when Freedom to defend yourself is allowed?

I never said it didn't. but if the choice is letting everyone have a gun and making it a little harder to get guns then I know what I prefer
(Again I do understand this would be hard to achieve with the amount of guns already in circulation, but it's also impossible to achieve if nothing is done)

How is it possible to not see that?
ohh,your answer is welcome anywhere.

Gun crime drops when there are less guns
How is it possible to not see that?

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WebsterMark

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Re: 33 people shot
Reply #18 - 02/27/22 at 06:15:55

There's a practicality you mentioned in passing several times that can't be overcome. Not that it's difficult to overcome, it's impossible to overcome.

The estimate i just looked up said there are likely 400 millions guns in the US. Guns don't have am expiration date. My brother and I just fired a rifle that was a contemporary of the weapons used by Custard's men 150 years ago at Little Big Horn. (Trapdoor Springfield for you gun nuts) Unfortunately, not one that was actually used at the battle because that would be worth some serious cash, but was built a few years before. It has sat for nearly 100 years without being fired. Little cleaning and a low power shell for safety and the thing fired amazingly. Surprisingly accurate.

Point is, you're not going to get rid of guns. Never. The few people who would turn guns in are people who would never use guns in crimes so forget any idea about removing guns from the citizenry because its never going to happen. Never.

So what are you left with? As I said, here in one of the cities that got the title of murder capital of the nation, St. Louis, I can tell you the unpleasant reality is murders by non-black perpetrators are roughly equal to what you consider to be safe European cities.

Here's the truth. The African American culture in large urban areas are plagued with an acceptance of violence by a large enough percentage of that demographic that it permeates their culture. That's a fact.

What caused it and how to change that culture have nothing to do with taking guns from rural and suburbanites. That's another fact.

One more fact; not sure about you but many other on here will call me racist for starting those facts because to accept reality would cause them distress so we'll just keep kicking the 'need more guns laws' can down the road a little further.

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MnSpring

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Re: 33 people shot
Reply #19 - 02/27/22 at 08:03:44

Billynoneck wrote on 02/26/22 at 15:16:38:

" ... Ill be honest, I am pretty sure nothing you can say will change mine ... "

So you P&M about having a conversation,
yet don't want to have one ???????

"... How about I'm walking down the street and some random person shoots me because I look at them wrong and they are disgruntled and had a bad day at work, or is that just the price I have to pay for freedom? ..."

Ban Cars; 1,350,000 people KILLED by cars a year. (+/-)
Guns; 14,000 people killed each year, (which INCLUDED Justifiable) (+/-)

(National Center for Health Statistics reports 38,390 deaths by firearm, of which 24,432 were by suicide)

A media report from FL, after they passed the 'right to carry law'.
Reporter: 'how has the right to carry law affected you'
Store owner: 'I used to have a gun robbery each month, last 6 months I have had none'
R: 'Why is that'
S: 'See the sign'
(The sign said free coffee to those that show permit to carry)
S: (pointing to 7 people drinking coffee)
'Which ones, are drinking free coffie ?'

(JOG said) Its GOTTA matter.
How else do you explain Why crime drops when Freedom to defend yourself is allowed?

"... I never said it didn't. ..."

Yet you said it did, in the response below !
(Just like I say to a DFI driver on the freeway,
'PICK ONE', lane)

"... Gun crime drops when there are less guns
How is it possible to not see that? ..."

Yep, JUST LIKE, Banning Red Cars,
because a Red Car was used in a Bank Robbery.
Therefor one can say;
'Less Bank Robberies using red cars'.

Take away guns, less gun crime.
BUT NOT LESS CRIME.
It is MORE Crime.

"... making it a little harder to get guns ..."

Happening since 1934

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Ben Franklin once said: "If you give up a freedom, for the sake of security, you will have neither".
Which is More TRUE, today, than yesterday.('06, S-40, Stock) well, mostly .

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justin_o_guy2

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Re: 33 people shot
Reply #20 - 02/27/22 at 19:43:26

You Do follow the news, right? People shoot random strangers.

How about I'm walking down the street and some random person shoots me because I look at them wrong and they are disgruntled and had a bad day at work

or is that just the price I have to pay for freedom?

You bet. Sorry, but people kill each other. And look at where that is happening more
Look at where it happens less.
And notice
Nowhere is there a Zero. Murder rate.

So, since it's Not possible to get to safety, then what?

You Do believe self defense is a natural right, don't you?

I'll wait for your answer before I go on.

I'm trying to honor your reasonable request for a civil discussion.

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Billynoneck

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Re: 33 people shot
Reply #21 - 02/27/22 at 20:54:40

justin_o_guy2 wrote on 02/27/22 at 19:43:26:

You Do follow the news, right? People shoot random strangers.

How about I'm walking down the street and some random person shoots me because I look at them wrong and they are disgruntled and had a bad day at work

or is that just the price I have to pay for freedom?

You bet. Sorry, but people kill each other. And look at where that is happening more
Look at where it happens less.
And notice
Nowhere is there a Zero. Murder rate.

I understand a zero murder rate is an impossible thing to have but to have a school shooting once a month is just to high a price for me to pay
If you make it so maybe a psych and/or criminal check is required for anyone to purchase a gun (both things that can be found in a police check) in say a card a person could carry saying they are fit to buy a gun, then maybe you will end up with fewer guns in the hands of people that will randomly shoot me. shootings in both NZ and Oz are very uncommon now that there is gun control laws and after the Christchurch mosque shootings in 2019 the law was looked into and changed to help prevent it from happening again and not a single licensed gun owner I know was affected

So, since it's Not possible to get to safety, then what?

You Do believe self defense is a natural right, don't you?

Yes I believe in self defense but as guns require a licence here I don't feel I need a gun to protect myself my family, or my home
yet over there i had an iligal gun at 13, it took me less than 48 hours to get a hold of and that thought now terrifies me

I'll wait for your answer before I go on.

I'm trying to honor your reasonable request for a civil discussion.

It shows, from my point of view you asked valid questions rather than telling me my option is wrong, I respect that.

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Billynoneck

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Re: 33 people shot
Reply #22 - 02/27/22 at 21:17:20

WebsterMark wrote on 02/27/22 at 06:15:55:

There's a practicality you mentioned in passing several times that can't be overcome. Not that it's difficult to overcome, it's impossible to overcome.

It is certainly impossible if no one bothers to try, the same arguments were used in NZ and Oz but they found a way to make it work. government buybacks no questions asked was I believe a but part of that.
also does it really matter if it takes 10 years if progress is being made?

The estimate i just looked up said there are likely 400 millions guns in the US. Guns don't have am expiration date. My brother and I just fired a rifle that was a contemporary of the weapons used by Custard's men 150 years ago at Little Big Horn. (Trapdoor Springfield for you gun nuts) Unfortunately, not one that was actually used at the battle because that would be worth some serious cash, but was built a few years before. It has sat for nearly 100 years without being fired. Little cleaning and a low power shell for safety and the thing fired amazingly. Surprisingly accurate.

Point is, you're not going to get rid of guns. Never. The few people who would turn guns in are people who would never use guns in crimes so forget any idea about removing guns from the citizenry because its never going to happen. Never.

I don't want to cherry-pick from your comments but I would like to point out I never said "get rid of guns" I don't want to and don't think you should "get rid of guns", from your statement above you seem to be an enthusiast and I applaud that, I'm saying would it be bad if we may be checked to see if someone was a violent criminal and/or had been committed to care for being unstable before we let them have an AR15

So what are you left with? As I said, here in one of the cities that got the title of murder capital of the nation, St. Louis, I can tell you the unpleasant reality is murders by non-black perpetrators are roughly equal to what you consider to be safe European cities.

Here's the truth. The African American culture in large urban areas are plagued with an acceptance of violence by a large enough percentage of that demographic that it permeates their culture. That's a fact.

I take that to mean you are referring to the lower-income areas, same thing in NZ and Oz, the gun buyback programs worked well in those areas

What caused it and how to change that culture have nothing to do with taking guns from rural and suburbanites. That's another fact.

Again, NOT Taking guns, gun laws do not have to mean you loose your guns

One more fact; not sure about you but many other on here will call me racist for starting those facts because to accept reality would cause them distress so we'll just keep kicking the 'need more guns laws' can down the road a little further.

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WebsterMark Serious Thumper Offline SuzukiSavage.com Rocks! Posts: 13170 Gender:	Re: 33 people shot Reply #23 - 02/28/22 at 05:08:23 Billy, kudos to you for hanging in there. All the other lefties would have bailed by now. Thanks.
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WebsterMark

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Re: 33 people shot
Reply #24 - 02/28/22 at 05:26:43

I didn’t know anything about this gun buy back program you’re talking about so I looked it up.

In five year period, 659,940 guns were collected. It’s likely there are more guns in a 25 mile radius from where I’m sitting this morning.

Between 1979 and 2013, there were 10,144 total homicide deaths in Australia (Chapman, Alpers, and Jones, 2016). For homicides, the range was from 165 deaths in 2004 to 377 deaths in 1990;
377 deaths in a single bad year for the entire nation of Australia. That’s a bad summer in only the city of Chicago.

And I don’t know the answer to this but did you have a demographic that made up only 13% of your population responsible for the majority of gun crimes?

Point is, while it’s true there are some programs that scale up, there are many that don’t. Here in St. Louis, for the past five years we had a local politician encouraging a program that worked in some other city, Jackson Mississippi or some smaller town like that I think. He finally got it pushed through here and it was implemented a couple of years ago. Gun crimes actually went up. The reason why is because it just didn’t scale up to the problems of St. Louis.

We have massive crime problems in large stretches of urban areas in almost every single major US city. A gun buyback program that pays fair market value will do nothing except have a few people who are desperate for money sell a gun.

I’ve not been to Australia or New Zealand but I’ve been to quite a few European and Asian cities. I was never fearful walking anywhere in the evening by myself. That’s not true in the US. That’s my point about not scaling up. Australia and or New Zealand don’t even come close to comparing to inner-city Chicago, St. Louis, Baltimore, New York, Houston, Denver, Los Angeles, San Francisco, you get the point.

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justin_o_guy2 Serious Thumper Offline What happened? Posts: 55279 East Texas, 1/2 dallas/la.	Re: 33 people shot Reply #25 - 02/28/22 at 17:49:10 I'm not asleep, haven't bailed,been busy and I don't want to just toss something out. This is looking like a good thread and I don't want to mess it up
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MnSpring

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Re: 33 people shot
Reply #26 - 03/01/22 at 08:34:46

Gun ‘buy back’ programs.

It has been mentioned that in some countries, they work.

I know the majority, in the Country called the U.S.A.,
did not work.

I know in Minn, NONE of them worked.

In fact in Minn, many lead to MORE crime,
as “No Questions Asked”.

Dealing with, "buy back - no questions asked", remember clearly, when the, 'fee', went to 50.00. A group of people with with fists full of 100 bills, stood on the sidewalk, looked/asked, then offered a 100 bill for things that were worth much, much, much, more.
And the drug addled felons were all to happy to double their money.

Word spread, and in that area, rapidly, their were more people,
(the kind that sell guns out of a trunk of a car) with 100 + bills than people with guns to 'turn in' at 50.00.

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Ben Franklin once said: "If you give up a freedom, for the sake of security, you will have neither".
Which is More TRUE, today, than yesterday.('06, S-40, Stock) well, mostly .

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justin_o_guy2 Serious Thumper Offline What happened? Posts: 55279 East Texas, 1/2 dallas/la.	Re: 33 people shot Reply #27 - 03/01/22 at 18:41:07 Hey, guys! They are having a " Buy Back" , you know, when the government uses taxpayer money to Buy Back what they never sold.. so we need to see how many guns we can steal. Been working in the shop all day.
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justin_o_guy2

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Re: 33 people shot
Reply #28 - 03/01/22 at 18:48:05

Billynoneck wrote on 02/26/22 at 14:05:59:

MnSpring wrote on 02/26/22 at 13:36:23:

All about the, 'gun',
nothing about
PUNISHING the Crime !

Oh don't get me wrong Im all for punishment and consequences for actions but ive seen enough phone and bodycam footage to know thats not a thing any more. comman secce left the building years ago

what im saying is you a more likely to shoot someone if you have a gun rather than if you dont, so MAYBE make it just a little bit harder to get one

Correct, impossible without one. I'm certain that the statistics We get are not complete. Defensive gun use doesn't necessarily mean the trigger was pulled. Coupla thugs approaching an old dude planning on beating him up and robbing him, he shows them it's gonna cost them, they change course. Nobody ever knows it happened, so stats don't show it.
I don't understand why society is somehow safer by making it harder for law abiding people to be able to defend themselves.
Even IF a society could be completely without guns,the mean people would still kill people. The old, weak,small, defenseless against a young punk.
I don't get it.

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Billynoneck

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Re: 33 people shot
Reply #29 - 03/01/22 at 21:12:59

sorry very tired but will just throw this up

WebsterMark

It may very well not work/scale-up, there is no easy fix but if its never even tired or looked into then there is no possible way for things to get better

MnSpring

Well then there is an obvious problem so maybe look at ways to eliminate those problems and try again

justin_o_guy2

A very real possibility but is it a much higher possibility than "hey I want to rob a 7-11 lets go rob houses till we find a gun"?

I'm certain that the statistics We get are not complete. Defensive gun use doesn't necessarily mean the trigger was pulled. Coupla thugs approaching an old dude planning on beating him up and robbing him, he shows them it's gonna cost them, they change course. Nobody ever knows it happened, so stats don't show it.
I don't understand why society is somehow safer by making it harder for law abiding people to be able to defend themselves.
Even IF a society could be completely without guns,the mean people would still kill people. The old, weak,small, defenseless against a young punk.
I don't get it.

Agreed, to a certain extent, you can't take guns away from "good guys" then only "bad guys" would have them and the country would very fast turn into a mad max movie
the point is, IMO, to try to get guns out of the hands of the bad guys that cant or won't get a license, it would give the police the power to take "bad guys" guns on the spot. I don't pretend to have all or even any of the answers all I can say is what has worked in countries I've lived, even just the act of requiring guns to be locked away when not attended would more than likely reduce the number of suicides and school shootings, someone breaks into your house and instead of walking away with your 12 gauge and your AR instead they find a locked Safe

So to sum up, I'm not in favor of taking away your guns, I just like the idea of if I see you walking down the street open carrying Id feel a lot safer about it if I knew you had never been convicted of a violent crime and/or hadn't been diagnosed as unstable

from the outside looking in, America has huge amounts of gun violence, (hell I got my first gun there at 13, it took less than 48 hours and to think of that today terrifies me) you tried doing nothing, and that's not working how about looking at what other places have done and seeing if maybe that might work

Again, sorry if none of this makes no sense or comes across as preachy or arrogant that's not my intent, a couple of long days at work and very very tired

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